New and Suffering

[Accuray]

Thank you Sandi2, very helpful to set my expectations as you have! With regard to your question about how I got my W back to the M, I was asked for a D while my wife was on a business trip, so I had some time to figure out what to do. I found this article and tried to follow it to the letter:

http://dineane.hubpages.com/hub/My-Spouse-Wants-a-Divorce-Now-What

The bottom line is that you have one chance to turn it around, and you do that by being someone your spouse would want to be with, which means you have to do everything you can to avoid creating feelings of resentment in any way. I also read "SSM", "DB", etc. and did telephone coaching on this site, as well as IC.

I was very effective with my 180 too. I started out by re-establishing common ground from the time we got married, and then talked about our shared relationship goals, and demonstrated through action that my 180 was permanent.

Recently, my W said that she never really wanted to leave, she just thought that having the R with me she always wanted would be impossible. Now she says she feels she can have it. Since I wrote the post quoted above which was a little while ago, she has been rolling up her sleeves and putting in effort, although to your point, not to the degree or with the enthusiasm that I am.

My main challenge now is dealing with my bouts of sadness for both our benefit. I assume this is just "normal stages of grief" but I'm not sure what to expect in terms of how long it's going to last, or what I can do to head it off, or recover from it more quickly. It was suggested to me elsewhere on this site that these episodes may be an attempt to punish my wife, or to get attention from her, but I don't believe that, because they usually happen when we're apart and she would have no way of seeing me. Usually when we're together I feel good, but I do occasionally get "hit" and when that happens I try to disappear for a little while.

To some degree, I think there's been so much relief over the progress we've made that the feelings I've had to backburner are starting to come out, and I'm now feeling safe enough in the R to work through them, but I'm very anxious about derailing my efforts by doing so.

Both "DB" and "SSM" talk about the importance of creating and reinforcing positive cycles, and this sadness gets in the way of that, it starts a negative cycle and I'm really looking for ways to stop that as soon as possible.

Thanks again for your input

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I probably should have mentioned something about "the ultimatum." Since either of you might issue one and it is not always there, I just let that be.

Typically, though, the ultimatum comes around 3-4 months after the discovery/revelation about the EA. One that might have been issued by you is for her to get with the program as is evidenced by your feeling that you are doing all the heavy lifting. Its going to feel like that for awhile.

OTOH, her ultimatum is all about things not feeling like they are getting better. Its about wanting to get away from the burden of the past and the pain and hurt caused by her actions. It was an ultimatum that I got in my first marriage
that things needed to get better in a hurry (or she was going to leave). And so this is not unexpected as a pattern of actions.

She tells you that you need to trust her.

No, she needs you to trust her. Right now you have no such "need." Trust is both something offered and earned and it can be withdrawn at anytime. But for her, it is all about not feeling as badly about this and being constantly reminded about it in so many ways. And one thing in particular, that you not use the EA as a "weapon" until the end of time. My sense of it is that you aren't and that you won't be using her actions as a weapon AND that you are hurt by her actions and still have a good deal of healing to do.

Closure and completion comes with healing. She wants the EA as the past to be ignored or at least not right up there in the forefront of thought and discussion. Ignoring it won't heal things. That takes time and a willingness to take the time and to take the steps to heal.

No matter what happens, the EA will be a defining moment, just as the marriage, the birth of children, and the death of family members and parents are all defining moments. They may mark where courses are altered and new paths are chosen. They may close off some paths and open others. (My view of the world and the actions I took were altered by the birth of my son. It is "the past" that is present now. His birth marks and informed a whole new course in life for me.)

But we tend to think of births as positives and extramarital affairs as negative and hurtful. In time it may take its place as a turning point that informs and reminds you that a course change is always possible.

Hang in there. The fact that you are both still there and working on this is a good sign.

The Captain

[Accuray]

Thanks again Captain, you are the best. We are making good progress and I do believe the M will be happier than it would have been otherwise, so there is a silver lining.

For her part, my W claims to be very happy and energized about the future, and is feeling very connected to me. My challenge is simply to keep that going without letting depression and sadness derail things. I am very lucky to be in this position and I realize that, things could be so much worse, and it could have taken me much longer to get here if I was able to get here at all.

Your support has been invaluable and I do appreciate it.

Accuray

[Bagheera]

Greetings Accuray;

First off, I would like to second Sandi2's post to you. She's giving you a great perspective on where you currently are and the fact that you will have to do most of the work and LEAD the marriage recovery efforts for some time to come if you want to succeed.

Secondly, what YAH said also applies: *keep* yourself and her in individual and marriage counseling, if at all possible. Don't let her wiggle out of it because she feels guilty and doesn't want to face her actions. The truth is, your marriage WON'T be able to move forward *until* the issues of the past are examined, dissected, and dealt with. There are no short-cuts: if you don't deal with these issues now, they *will* come back and bite you in the butt again someday.

You also wrote:

My W claims that the reason she was seeking outside EF's was because she believed we were fundamentally incompatible and that she was left with unmet needs. She said she was afraid to challenge me with it, because I seemed happy with things as they were and she was afraid putting it out there would cause one of us to end the marriage, and she was afraid of forcing that. She didn't think my changing to meet her needs was an option. She now says that my efforts have shown her she can have the relationship she's always wanted, and she doesn't want anything else.

We've been seeing the same therapist individually and sometimes together, and the therapist cautioned me during an individual session recently that my W's explanations are disingenuous, and that she is addicted to the thrill of getting attention, and that she will likely do it again despite my best efforts.

Both what your wife said and what the therapist reported can be true. She may very well feel like her needs (which you haven't really defined here) were not being met, *and* she truly missed and enjoys the thrill of being pursued and courted by a man -- most women do. The fact that it was an extramarital affair makes it particularly exciting because of its 'forbidden' nature, and it involved a man who had *none* of the baggage that you have: he's still all bright and shiny and mysterious, while you're a well known, well worn old shoe; comfortable, but ho-hum.

The challenge that you currently face is this. She's opted to stay...for now...but she's left it up to you to make it worth her while to continue to stay. Also, she has a boat-load of negative perceptions and images about *you* and your short-comings, and she has disappointments and built up resentment regarding you and your previous actions in the M (or lack thereof). In effect, you're starting off right now with a 'negative balance' that has to be overcome for her to start seeing you in a positive light again.

Although my wife had no affairs and I'm the one that promised to leave if our marriage didn't improve, when it came time to start rebuilding my marriage I began in much the same position as you -- with a wife that was skeptical that I would do the work to meet her needs (emotionally, romantically, and family-wise), and who also had too much built-up resentment towards me to do any real work herself for awhile. It took a few months of one-sided, hard work on my part to prove her skeptical views wrong and to start getting her on board and working too (and I was lucky in that it only took that short amount of time).

Based upon my experience, in particular, and this includes the three solid years of counseling that my wife and I went through, the three best things that you can do right now (in my opinion) are:

(1) Keep focusing a lot of your attention on your GAL (get-a-life) activities, and burn off your frustrations through them. Exercise, work-out, pursue your hobbies, pursue your career, please *yourself*. This may sound anti-intuitive, because it's not focusing attention on her and the marriage, but know this: women are attracted to a man who has a *purpose*, who pursues it, and is happy with himself whilst doing it. Making your woman the center of your life and the source of all of your happiness is *unattractive* and a turn-off. Thus, your GAL activities will satisfy you, give you a place to vent your frustrations, and make you look more attractive to your wife. Win-win.

(2) Work to make yourself attractive and desirable. Every married man (and woman for that matter) should continue to act as if they are single and trying to attract the attention of their mate -- this should never stop and should last throughout the marriage. So be aware of and improve your appearance and grooming. Stop any lazy, slovenly habits, and most importantly, stop the hang-dog, sullen behavior -- it's very unattractive. Would you act that way in front of a woman you are trying to coax into a first date? Nope.

I would also advise you to stop digging into your wife's affair activities: it's like constantly picking at a scab and reopening a wound over and over again. Get it out of your system and drop it, and especially, stop asking her about it. If more needs to be done in that area, then bring it up in counseling and let the therapist direct and referee the discussion.

(3) Court your wife again (without expectations of sex). Treat her like a new love interest; get her attention; treat her like a gentleman; give her the thrill of the chase that she was missing so badly. Again, this is something that *all* married couples should continue to do throughout their lives: the old entice, chase, catch, then release to entice and chase again cycle should never stop.

WARNING: do not, do not, do NOT pursue her in what my wife calls 'love-sick puppy-dog mode' -- again, this is very *unattractive*. If you make her the center of *all* of your focus and attention, if your face crumples at the slightest rejection, or conversely, if you do the happy-dog dance at the slightest positive response from her, then you're making a mistake and looking unattractive (and co-dependent). Pursue her as a MAN, and in a manly fashion. Pursue her as a fun game, and one that you can handle losing.

Part of the key here is to not let *your* enthusiasm for the chase / pursuit outstrip hers by TOO much (a hard line to walk). A woman loves a man to be goo-eyes for her and hot on the pursuit trail, AS LONG AS she's she's at least somewhat goo-eyes for him or warming to the notion. But if he's far ahead of her in the love-sick department or worse, she doesn't want him to pursue her at all, then he gets the unattractive "puppy dog" label. IOW, you may have to regulate your courting behavior with regard to your wife, so as to keep pace with her responses. Start easy, start subtle, and be somewhat out-of-character...surprise her.

Hopefully, that's given you some food for thought.

Take care,

-- B.

[Accuray]

Thanks Bagheera,

I really appreciate your thoughts, I haven't checked this thread in a while, so my sincere apologies for the delayed response.

I am well studied in these dynamics at this point. In addition to pouring over tons of advice on these forums directed to others in similar situations, I have read SSM, DR, DB, "Love Must be Tough", "The 5 Love Languages", "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S.", "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and am half way through "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". Some of these were very applicable to me, others less so. They all tend to share the same themes, but come at them from different directions and with different examples. Bottom line is that I believe I understand the right thing to do, and am coming close to understanding what motivates my behavior, and a little closer to understanding what motivates my wife's behavior.

I understand it intellectually, but as I'm sure you appreciate like everyone else, it's damn hard to live it 24x7. I have been doing IC, but had to switch therapists for the reasons mentioned in this thread. I got my wife to do one session of MC with a counselor who was not really qualified, and one phone session with my DB Coach that really didn't help that much. She's pretty opposed to doing more, and if she comes in with a closed off attitude it seems to hurt more than it helps. My DB coach agreed on that point.

Here's an update, and maybe The Captain can chime in too:

Overall we've been doing quite well. We've been joking that we're going to win the marriage award, and my W seems to enjoy having that as a goal. Reading the 5LL's, my W's primary LL is "Quality Time" and I've been giving her that in spades. I do believe that our fundamental issue was that I would "GAL" too much, not spend enough (or any) quality time with her, so she felt alone and insecure in the relationship. That lead our M to be sex-starved, which touched off negative cycles of me feeling rejected, further retreating, lather rinse repeat.

Overall, the things that I have been doing and my 180's are really working. My wife says that I have "turned everything on it's head", she's very happy, and there are no thoughts of leaving now, she's here to stay. Our sex life is better than it's been since we got married, and our family is overall happier. In many ways, I'm the happiest I've been in a long time.

Victory right?

Ah, if only it were so easy, and I know it should be, but I am still a mess. Every week is getting better, but it's damn hard. I'm going through the high highs and low lows that Michelle says to expect, and they are hard on both of us. The reconciliation lead me to feel "in love" again, which I realize is a chemical response, is temporary, and clouds my judgment. My wife, to your point, did not come that high in her feelings for me. She's happy and satisfied, and feels secure, but she's just not at the same place, and although I'm dealing with it, deep down it hurts me.

In many ways my emotions were like a coiled spring, I was so beaten down and repressed, that when we reconciled, a lot popped out, both good and bad. Per DB, my challenge now is to manage that in the best way possible.

Reading the 5LL's, my primary LL is "Words of Affirmation", which is a common one for men. Historically, my W really wouldn't hand this out at all. She grew up with a narcissistic mother and a tough love father, so this is not in her nature. Once we read the 5LL's together and discussed it, I was thinking "great, I've given you my user manual -- this will be much easier now". In discovering her affair, I read the wonderful things she wrote to OM, so I knew she had it in her if she would put in the effort. I'm also in touch with the fact that what she wrote to OM made me jealous, I would love to have her write those words to me, but I know she will not, I am the well-worn shoe to your point above -- but I'm human so it still hurts (I wish I were a divorce busting robot!)

To her credit, she did make a slight effort with Words of Affirmation, but it was very slight. I made mistakes here and I know it, but I talked about what I would like to receive (per DR, you have to ask or you will never receive). This made her feel inadequate, and she got very upset with me last week and started crying.

What she keeps telling me is that she feels inadequate, and that she doesn't measure up. She just wants me to be happy. She says that I am compromising too much, putting my needs in the back seat, etc. She also takes any request that I make as a complaint -- a complaint that she wasn't already doing what I'm asking for. That's certainly not the spirit I intend, I'm trying to work things out. In my view she is perfectly adequate and I love her very much! Despite how much I tell her and try to show her, she does not seem to accept that.

She asks me to have no expectations, and to treat whatever she does for me as a gift. Then, when I try to come with no expectations, she complains that I'm suppressing my needs. Yikes, tough.

I believe one of the things she liked about the affair was that OM was married, and told her his first priority was his W. He had low expectations of her, and she would have to draw him out and pursue. She really doesn't do well in an environment with any expectations at all, and it's hard to live in a marriage that way. I really don't think my expectations are that high. I historically have never asked her to do anything. I don't expect housework, cooking, any of the gender-stereotype expectations. I do my own laundry, I'm happy to cook my own meals, do the grocery shopping. We split kid duty evenly, and I do all the typical male stuff (yard work, garbage, bills, home repair, etc.). All I have really asked her for recently is a daily check-in via chat while at work, and occasional "words of affirmation", as that makes me feel loved. That's it. Reading this, that may be hard to believe, but that's really all I've requested, and all I really "expect" is that she puts some effort into our marriage by engaging with me.

Lately, I've been feeling that she's encouraging me to throw in the towel, to admit that she will not make me happy and to leave of my own accord. This would take the pressure off of her if it was a mutual parting for sure. She seems to say things to point out that I'm not happy, when in fact I AM happy. That's what makes me question her motives, she's supplying negative feelings for me that I don't have.

I spoke to my DB coach this week for the first time in a month. She had some interesting perspective. She said that I cannot "own" my W's inadequacy issues -- she has to deal with that herself. I should effectively ignore it. She also recommended using more of a "friend" standard with my W, such that I have low expectations, and don't make a big deal when she does something for me that I like, or offers Words of Affirmation. Give it a little nod and move on, change the subject, whatever.

She also recommended reading "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" and said that I need to reverse the gender roles, that my W is coming from the perspective of shame, and I'm coming from the perspective of fear. I'm reading it now, my W keeps asking about it, and it's so interesting that I want to discuss it with her, but I must stop that!

My new 180 is that "R" discussions must completely cease, I need to do a better job "acting as if" and hiding my hurts from my W, and to your point, continue to work on being attractive in all the ways you point out. I have lost 20 lbs, have been working out like crazy, but have recently started to gain back, I know it's because of stress, I'm trying to put the brakes on but it's obviously hard.

WRT Quality Time, which my W needs, I have been doing that on her terms. I have tons of interests and hobbies, historically she would not pursue any of them with me. Simple things like going for a leisurely bike ride together, or going swimming at the beach, she simply will not do. That frustrates me as her reason for the EA was that I was not spending quality time with her, yet she made no effort to spend any with me either, and she still doesn't. She appreciates the effort I make, but all she really likes to do is to talk about her work. I've been doing that 5 nights a week. It feels good to connect with her, but I'd love to talk about other things, or better yet DO some things together, but she just won't put forth the effort or take a chance on trying something new, it's frustrating, but I don't even bring it up or make offers anymore, because she'll take those as expectations, and then feel badly about them.

Here's the thing, I know this is a normal part of my process, but I'm starting to question if I want to live like this. I've been looking at "for rent" signs in town when I drive by and wondering "what if". I've browsed Match.com in my area. I've thought about seeking meeting new people. Through this process, I've come to be "alright with me" in many ways, and know that if this M ends, I will be okay. I didn't feel that way initially. On the other hand, I have young kids, I want an intact family, and I do LOVE my W very much.

So what to do? Is my W right that she will just never make me happy? She *does* make me happy, why doesn't she believe that? I feel happy until she tells me I'm not. I would love to see a little more effort from her, and a little more enthusiasm. Would I be happier when I got that, or would I just want more? My DB coach said that I have accepted living with what I'm getting now. If I hadn't accepted it, I wouldn't be here. She said my challenge now is to act like it.

That seems like excellent advice, just oh so hard to implement like everything else.

Accuray

[Accuray]

Journaling a few more thoughts:

She also complains that I contradict myself. I will make a request, she will make it clear that she's not going to do it, and I will tell her that's ok. That makes her very frustrated. I tell her that if she doesn't want to meet a request, I have three choices, keep asking, find a way to go without it, or find a different way to fulfill it. My learning here has been not to make requests.

The other issue I've been having is honesty. After the EA honesty is huge with me. She pursued two coworkers at her former job and had an EA with one. My DB coach suggested that we make a "contract" that if we feel tempted or catch ourselves flirting that we will immediately disclose to the other person and talk about it. She referred me to Pat Love's site regarding an "office spouse" so that we can be crystal clear about where the line is drawn.

Last week, she told me she went to lunch and went shopping with one of her female coworkers. Through a mutual friend I happened to hear that she had actually invited a male coworker to do lunch and the errand with her. It sounded like the other woman joining was last minute, but it turns out the 3 of them went out. I did not act surprised and didn't ask the mutual friend any questions as I didn't want to make a thing out of it.

Why did she not mention him when she told me about the lunch? I don't think there is anything going on there but the omission is troubling given that we are working on rebuilding and trust is so key. If she leaves out something innocent like that, how can I feel good that she will honor our contract?

If she had lunch with the guy and didn't tell me that would be fine. The fact that she had lunch with 2 people and only told me about one of them is weird. I don't want to bring it up because I don't want her to feel I'm keeping tabs, but it's bothering the hell out of me. What do I make of that?

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I only have a couple of minutes as I'm sitting here in my local Starbucks, so I'll deal with the request issue, since it is actually the easiest to discuss.

A request is just that and there is not really anything for YOU to do with your own request, though it sounds like she wants you to do something different.

When one makes a request (and I do mean request, not an order or demand, or ultimatum) AND it's a request without expectations (somethings she's emphasized. That's not to say that you don't have some expectation around a request AND whatever she chooses must be "okay" for it to be a request with no expectation), there are three and only three choices avalable to HER.

First, to say "yes" to accept and honor the request.

The second is to counteroffer. This is a way of declining and offereing something else related to your original request(which now puts the three choices back on you and you can offer a counter to her counteroffer).

The third choice is to decline (without any counteroffer) as an outright "no."

The problem seems to be that she makes your request mean something (about expectations) and then she makes you "wrong" for the meaning she applied to it. She likely has has a problem with saying no without making "no" mean something and then blaming you for that as well.

Is the problem that you asked (requested) or that she answered?

Something to think about.

The Captain

[Accuray]

Thank you Captain, always appreciated! I guess there is a spectrum between a request and a veiled demand. On the one end is "I would like some ice cream". If I don't get it, I really don't care that much. On the other end is "I haven't had anything to drink in 2 days and you have a big glass of water, I would like half" -- that's really more of an expectation because if you don't get it, you're going to be disappointed and resentful.

I do get the sense that I made requests that are more toward the ice cream, but my wife interprets them as being more toward the water, and I'm not sure how to bridge that gap. When I tell her they are just requests, she tells me that no, they are expectations. To continue the analogy, she's saying "I'm inadequate because I haven't offered you the water already, and now you're just pretending you'll be OK without it".

It's very frustrating because I'm never able to convince her it's an ice cream request. On the other end, when I DO want the water, she often won't do that either. My point there is that I either have to learn to live with my thirst, badger her until she gives me the water, or find another way not to feel thirsty, and the asking again usually doesn't work, and just makes things worse.

I just really am having a hard time figuring out how to navigate this one, although I do like the suggestion of telling my wife to say "yes, no, or counterpropose". She really never counter proposes either, that may be a good thing to try.

--Accuray