New and Suffering

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I have been giving this some thought over the last couple of days about the “warning” the therapist gave. One of the problems with this sort of arrangement is that although the therapist gets to see both sides of the story through the eyes of the participants, one must be very, very careful about how the information from the other party is shared.

It could be that your wife has shared more with the therapist than she has with you as a sort of “progressive reveal.” Does that mean that there have been other men you don’t know about? I don’t know and that may be one possible source of the warning. But the fact that it was put in the context of addiction to the attention may provide a different clue (I wonder if the word “addiction” is a little too strong, Though if we do something and can’t seem to stop, that might be classifiable as an addiction.

Young at Heart points out something that I’ll say in a different way. There can always be the sense that the “grass is greener” somewhere else and we can choose to pursue that. But that is and never will be satisfactory because it will always seem that “the grass is greener” somewhere else (or with someone else). Always!

Let’s take what your wife said at face value and assume that it reveals some truth about how she sees the situation…that you seemed content and not really willing to change (on your own). Here is the thing to get from that: you have both trained each other how to see the other and yourself in the other’s presence and how you should be seen. We are seldom aware of how we’ve trained people even when we are most dissatisfied with the situation.

Think about that for a moment. If she sees (saw) you in that way as being unwilling to change…didn’t you train her to see you that way? Its not all your training for she has her own interpretive experiences to work from. And the converse is true. Your wife, through many years and many, many words and actions has trained you to see her and the nature of your relationship in a certain way. There are certain things that you” know” about her, yourself, and how the relationship does (and does not) work and the “way things are.” It’s informed by your entire past (and hers).

I suggest that it isn’t the attention that she craves (she’s getting a lot right now and the attention isn’t necessarily a great one to go through). It’s the fact that with someone else there isn’t the baggage (training) of the past (relationship) to bring into and disrupt the excitement (actually the baggage is already there but there is the tendency to ignore it because it’s not shared baggage developed together).

That works for a while…until the one becomes aware of the tractor trailers full of the baggage from the past that show up and the movers start delivering it. Then it’s time to move on.

It is clear that you love your wife and, despite everything you know so far, you wish to stay married to her and forge a stronger marriage. Yes, the trust has been damaged and perhaps you have no real reason to trust her (ever again). But your heart tells you something else. I recognize that because I felt much the same way with my first wife. In my case, we were never able to get to the place where she was willing to take a chance, that the changes to the relationship would be to the positive and would be built to last….a loving relationship with me once again. I had often wondered if I had fought harder for our relationship, if I had not followed my instincts to give her space and “let her go” whether we would have rebuilt or relationship.

And although years later she saw me blossom once again, into the person she first saw (in me) and fell in love with (her words exactly), I always had the intuitive feeling that nothing I said or did would have mattered or made a difference. A family event had me ask her (finally) if somewhere I had misread the situation and by letting her go and giving her space that I missed out on rebuilding our relationship.

She told me that she was grateful for the space and the fact that I didn’t make it hard for her. But no, nothing would have made a difference. She had made up her mind about me and nothing I could have said or done would have swayed her.

The point is that intuition informs us. If your intuition tells you that your wife is willing to rebuild something with you know this: your intuition is fallible and yet you should trust it because you only you have a sense of how good your intuition is.

That doesn't make you a doormat.

The Captain

[Accuray]

Captain,

I really hope you appreciate how much your contributions have meant to me, you really seem to have this figured out, and you are an excellent writer.

For your questions:

>>It could be that your wife has shared more with the therapist
>>than she has with you as a sort of “progressive reveal.” Does
>>that mean that there have been other men you don’t know about?

The therapist told me that my wife confined her to only talking about our relationship. She would not get into her family, her own feelings, and did not share anything about the affairs she was having. I got the sense that this made the therapist angry, as my wife had "put one over on her" by not baring everything. My instinct tells me there is some of that going on, so I'm convinced that the therapist does not know more than I do. A lot of what the therapist understands about my W comes from me. To your point, my "instinct" tells me that the therapist has misdiagnosed, and is reading to me out of an affair playbook.

>>Think about that for a moment. If she sees (saw) you in that
>>way as being unwilling to change…didn’t you train her to see
>>you that way?

For sure, I am not innocent here. I was never mean spirited or hurtful, I've always been supportive. My sin was inattentiveness. I definitely felt the relationship was secure and took it for granted. I was selfish in many ways in terms of pursuing my own happiness at the expense of spending time with my W. With regard to "training", I was not ready for parenthood when we had our first, and had a hard time with the infant stage with each child. My wife did twice come asking me for more, and at the time, I didn't feel I had more to give her, as all my energy was going into the children, the household, and preserving my sanity. That was over 10 years ago the last time she asked. I think the breakdown here is that she interpreted that to be my feelings and capacity "now and forever" and for me it was just a temporary stage. I definitely don't feel I reinforced that "training" over the next ten years, I just wasn't given another chance. When I later came looking to give more, she was detached, angry, passive aggressive, and I could no longer get in, so I retreated and tried to make the best of things. After reading the SSM, many of the dynamics in our relationship became clear, my feelings of rejection and being unloved, subsequent withdrawal, contributing to my wife feeling disconnected and neglected, and around we go. At one point you commented that my M was intimacy starved rather than sex-starved. I definitely agree with you there, but it was sex-starved as well. The SSM defines sex starved as being characterized by a desire gap that leaves one partner dissatisfied and contributes to negative relationship dynamics, and we had that in spades. When we did have sex, it was always intimacy starved.

>>It is clear that you love your wife and, despite everything
>>you know so far, you wish to stay married to her and forge a
>>stronger marriage. Yes, the trust has been damaged and perhaps
>>you have no real reason to trust her (ever again). But your
>>heart tells you something else.

Yes, my heart tells me to trust again, to accept her explanations at face value and to rebuild. I was there emotionally before, but the therapist session was like getting a cold glass of water in the face. You are helping to reinforce that the therapist was probably way off base, and I should trust my instinct.

>>I recognize that because I felt much the same way with my
>>first wife. In my case, we were never able to get to the place
>>where she was willing to take a chance, that the changes to
>>the relationship would be to the positive and would be built
>>to last….a loving relationship with me once again. I had often
>>wondered if I had fought harder for our relationship, if I had
>>not followed my instincts to give her space and “let her go”
>>whether we would have rebuilt or relationship.

I am very sorry to hear that, and hope that you will take some solace in the fact that you are helping to prevent me from getting to the same place. I do believe that my W is willing to take the leap of faith, she is just more hesitant and tentative about it than I am, and that is a challenge for me.

>>She told me that she was grateful for the space and the fact
>>that I didn’t make it hard for her. But no, nothing would have
>>made a difference. She had made up her mind about me and
>>nothing I could have said or done would have swayed her.

I wonder if that's true, or that's just what she's convinced herself of? I am definitely learning that talking only goes so far, the "doing" and the "being" seems to be equally if not more important.

>>The point is that intuition informs us. If your intuition
>>tells you that your wife is willing to rebuild something with
>>you know this: your intuition is fallible and yet you should
>>trust it because you only you have a sense of how good your
>>intuition is.

Golden words of wisdom that I will always remember. Once I decided to follow my intuition and disregard the therapist's warnings, things felt "right" again.

>>That doesn't make you a doormat.

Oh boy I hope not! I definitely cannot go through this again, it has been more awful than I could have ever imagined.

Thanks again for your support

[Young at Heart]

Captain; Great advice!

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

"Experience" is sometimes getting something other than what you want. And that sometimes gives the illusion of having stuff figured out. At one level, I've had a long time to reflect upon where that relationship with my ex-wife failed and used that, to the extent possible, to inform myself and others about the pitfalls that may show up unexpectedly.

If the benefit of my experience is helpful, then so much the better.

As for my ex, I'm pretty sure that is and was an honest assessment that nothing I could have said or done would have made a difference (at the time). What we can say is that her life (and mine) did not quite turn out as we thought (and hoped) it might long, long ago.

I'll just leave it at that.

The Captain

[Accuray]

Update: My W and I are overall on a good track, but there are definitely ups and downs. My W is not interested in IC or MC, and just wants to move forward.

Because of the long term EA, I keep feeling compelled to ask if I know everything that happened, and to keep going back through the evidence I originally found whenever I'm alone. Each time I go back I find additional little things I didn't notice before and feel compelled to ask about them, which upsets my W because it makes her feel guilty and sad, and that I think the worst of her.

I received an ultimatum of sorts this week that I need to stop bringing up the past and focus on the "now" and the future. I was told I have to trust, that my W was not just some person running around having EA's for fun, that she's someone I know and did it because she was unhappy.

I was thinking about that, and because I had no idea it was going on and never thought my W would be capable of it, in many ways I don't feel like I know her anymore, and my trust HAS been shaken. I also question how much I know myself since I was so unaware.

I desperately want this to be successful and for my W to be happy, but I get sad and have a hard time shaking myself out of my worst thoughts without discussing them. I've been trying to keep it to myself, but my W says that I'm too easy to see through, and wants to know what's bothering me and won't let me off the hook until I spill it.

One challenge is that she has not been good about "cleaning up" her e-mail, phone, computer, etc., so any time I go looking there is lots to find, although fortunately nothing since the bomb dropped. She assures me that if anyone contacts her she will tell me, and that she will not reach out. At the same time, if I put myself in her shoes, it would be so much easier to try to sweep it under the rug and NOT tell me if she feels it's just innocent. How can I trust that she will tell me, knowing that telling me will lead to some degree of pain, while keeping it secret will likely go unnoticed?

Having a very hard time putting everything behind me and focusing on the future, but I know I have to do it if there is to be a future. How do people get through this without pulling their W down the drain with them whenever they get triggered? IC is too infrequent and very expensive.

Very hard

[sandi2]

Oooh-weee, I want to talk to you! But I don't have time right now. Hope to catch you later.

[aeolianchaos]

Hi Accuray,

One thing to look into is David Schnarch's website - he has an audio download for $10 about dealing with extramarital affairs. It's a lot cheaper than therapy, and might give you some fresh ideas about what you can do with yourself in order to keep recovering from it.

The audio was meant for pros, but it also suggests that lay-people may find it useful. It's about 2 hours long.

I think that you are in a difficult situation if you accept your W's ultimatum and let that determine your actions.

While being in the now is great, any kind of A obviously has implications to other dynamics of your relationship. Often resolving those is a big part of the need to keep exploring it.

On the other hand, perhaps choosing not to explore it further for your own reasons could be an act of integrity for you.

Maybe thinking of it as 'putting everything behind you' is unrealistic. Perhaps there will always be a part of you that hates what she did. Maybe denying that only makes it loom larger.

If it does exist, that part of you exists within a much more expansive you that allows you to move forward and create a different kind of experience for you and your W now.

Perhaps you can reexamine some of your thoughts about trust and what that means for you.

[Accuray]

Thanks a lot Aeolianchaos, I will check out the audio program (at thi point I'll do anything)

I do appreciate your post and your guidance

[Accuray]

Come on Sandi2, you can't do that to me! You dangled some nuggets of wisdom and then disappeared! Your guidance here is welcomed.

Accuray

[sandi2]

I spent lots of time reading, researching, seeking help, etc. and have got her back to the table and interested in saving the marriage, but I am definitely doing the bulk if not all of the work. I feel like I'm putting on a backpack full of rocks each morning and walking around with a forced smile.

How did you get her back to the table....and especially "interested" in saving the M?

You will do the bulk of what's your definition of work, and for quite some time, if you really desire to have a MR with her. But there were problems from the beginning of your R with her and now she has been involved with OM, so she doesn't want to work at this M. Don't expect her to suddenly decide to push up her sleeves and start showing signs of "strong effort". If you do not come to terms with that first realization that she can't give 100% effort right now....then you won't make it.

First of all, you need to know something about a WAW who agrees to stay in the MR with the H. She has agreed to not leave! That's about as much effort as she will give right now....and maybe for a long time. If you are comparing yourstandards of efforts against her apparent lack of efforts.....you will sink. Your mental, physical & emotional strength will drain you dry b/c of the constant stress and discouragement. I'm sure you are thinking that I'm not helping much by telling you these things, but hear me out. I want you to succeed, and realizing, and accepting the fact that she is not going to jump back into the R with the enthusiasm, hopefullness, nor cooperation that you expected...will help you. You may not understand it and it isn't "fair", but I believe it is true with WAW's who have been in an EA.

Try to look at this as if there are 2 separate job descriptions. Ever had a job where you and co-worker made the same salary but you had to do most of the work? It may not be fair if you have all the hard stuff and she doesn't have to do anything except show up! That's why it's so important to keep your focus on your job goals....and not on the co-worker.


I had this little picture come to mind....Imagine the two of you lost in a dark forest. You have the burden of the backpacks & equipment, but you are working hard to find safety. However, you don't see much effort from her end of things. What's wrong with her? Why isn't she trying to get help as much as you are? It seems that the two of you wearing different type of eye glasses. You have no doubts as to what to do b/c your glasses help you to see crystal clear. The problem lies with her eye glasses. They are so dark that she can't see what's right in front of her.

I didn't mean to leave right here, but I have to go. I'll check back tomorrow, hopefully.

(hug)