Forgetting those things which are behind......

[dragonflie]

I think it is incredibly rude for your H to obviously look at other women while your H is with you. He has plenty of time (unless you work together, etc) to do that away from you.

But, he is probably totally unaware, as they tend to be....

[holdingon]

The thing I have noticed lately, since I am more aware, I guess, is that ALL men tend to check ALL women out ALL the time... And NO I never noticed this before the bomb... Watch the next time you are out.

[Dagny]

Hey Mockers! I'm back and attempting to catch up, three weeks off this board and there is so much activity. I so understand the creepies or the pit in the stomach that exists while trying to get things back on track. But something you wrote a few threads back hit me, are we supposed to act happy, happy, happy and not tell them how we feel? But, and I think we all feel this, isn't this a bit of the woe is me attitude? I've been giving you all this attention and understanding, but what have you done for me other than try to break up the marriage? If we can change our attitude into self-less love, maybe some of our pent up frustration at them not doing enough for us would leave? And on the other hand, what happens if we act happy, happy, happy and then we become happy? All on our own? Isn't this a possibility for all of us?

I'll have to really watch what I say and how I say things. There are, afterall, thousands of ways to wash a kids hair, right? Maybe I should keep my big mouth shut and let him do things his way (which is what I've been doing since the hair washing incident.)

Absolutely! Who really cares if the children go out in really obnoxious outfits or the hair isn't washed in the most efficient manner? I think one of the great things about this BB is we can see ourselves in other's post. As the primary caregiver, of course I think my way is right or best, but I need to back off and let H do it his way, and maybe I'll learn something, and if not, I'll learn to let other people discover their own method of doing things! Don't you hate when someone is looking over your shoulder and watching how you do something? Maybe that is the feeling we are giving our H's.

There seems to be a paradox here.....H is very proud of how I took care of the children while he was gone, and says he thinks I'm a good mother, but I shouldn't offer any unsolicited advice or suggestions about childcare.

I think this is big---he doesn't like suggestions about childcare. If it isn't really, really important, don't bring it up. Let him do it his way. Try for a week, see what happens. If he is dealing with it, gives you time to go do something fun or your flylady 15 minute decluttering! Someone posted somewhere that they have an overnight rule for questions, they sleep on the question/comment they have for their spouse and then in the morning if it still really important, they give themselves persmission to pose it. I think she said about 95% of the time it was not important in the morning. Sounds like a sound technique.

3. I am not sure about discussiong things right now - this is one of my main questions. There are things I feel I need clarification on, but in two instances H has said, "we've started over." or "we've discussed this already." As if we never need to talk about any of this stuff again. I haven't brought up this particular topic, and I don't remember us discussing this since a very heated talk just post-bomb (the one in which H told me how selfish I was, only thinking of my needs, that I think I'm always right, etc.)So, maybe this would be OK for us to talk about some more. (Could I possibly dessect this any further? )

I think you have answered your own quesion. He feels that you are starting over, the past is past. He is with you and possibly to him that is discussion enough. What would dissecting it further get you? We are female, it is what we do best, but apparently the male species just don't get it. What more could you learn? He wants it all to be in the past, and that is a pretty good place for all the crap he put you through to be.

The tricky part is how to do this logistically. I go to a girl's night out each month, and am going out of town for a work meeting without him, so this is a start. Just need to have regular "me" time too. H and I have talked about this.

This sounds like a start. I don't know about you, but I always felt guilty when I would go out with GFs, like I should be home with my family, but I think through all this we have learned we need to do things on our own and just for us. I'm so glad you are doing the trip! What is your normal pattern of calling home? Those phone calls are going to be a great chance to act confident and happy and tell him all the exciting things you are learning and doing! Happy, happy, happy! And of course, be happy and have fun, take some trash novels and give your mind a break.

H says, that I am attractive - he's just tired. I've also wondered while we are ML, is H thinking of her? Talk about creepies!!!!! )

You need your stop sign on this one!!!! He thinks you are attractive, repeat that instead, or how lucky he is to have you, something that boosts you up, not down. I know there are times when I'm tired, but I don't say so, but what would happen next time, when you really are too exhausted, to just say no? I'm all for ML, think it is great for bringing everyone closer together, but why do we always say yes, but they can say no when they are exhausted and then we get our feelings hurt? I'm the exact same way! Get a vibrator and then see their reactions? (I'm kidding on that one, but I bet it would get their attention! Let me know if you have the guts to try it, I know I don't)

Here's another example: Last night, the children were really resisting bedtime. H and I were both frustrated. H said at one point, "I've had enough." I said, "OK, I'll read the story." H was leaving the room and said, "I'll be eback." Me: "are you leaving the house?" H: no. Then he stomped around for a few minutes, then came back and was OK. I would be afraid to say and do what he did, for fear that I would seem angry/negative.

Okay, this sounds a bit too unsure of yourself. Kids can be a pain and take every ounce of energy. But how about if you would have said, yeah they are being difficult, why don't I read to them tonight and give you a break and then tomorrow night it is your turn? Could that have helped? Something a bit proactive and eliminate your need to ask him questions.

Maybe this is a result of me being a pleaser or maybe I'm afraid to assert myself. Maybe this is a Mars/Venus thing (need to finish that book)?

Me too, I stalled at about chapter 4

I think I am supposed to hold back doubts and suspicions, and act confident and happy, pma, regardless. Not tell him how I feel, etc.

The cliche that comes to mind is: fake it until you make it. I think we should do it for us, not them, dwelling on the bad isn't going to do ourselves any good. Take a look at all the good in our own lives and focus on that. I think listing the positives helps with that. I'm glad you had such a great date. When you find yourself having the negavite thoughts, replay the date in your head and the feelings you felt then.

I'd just ignore the eye-candy thing. If it is something he does and did, pointing it out and that it hurts your feelings will probably not score you any points, will only make you look insecure in his eyes. Yeah, it is rude, but will saying anything change his behavior? How about if you said, wow, she really is gorgeous, do you think her boobs are real or bought? Or something outrageous, but not negative, just humorous? Or say nothing?

Mockers, I think he is trying, but maybe our H's don't try in the way we expect. Please, when I reach the stage you are at and all these doubts come up, remind me! I think you are doing great. This is hard, it is hard to forget what they have done, but I think men just process differently and maybe the mars/venus things has some of the anwers.

But celebrate all the victories you have! He is home, it is his choice, you didn't force him back, he is there because he wants to be there with you! He wants to make another baby with you. He thinks you are attractive. He wants to ML with you. He thinks you were confident and did a great job running the house while he was AWOL. He is sharing things with you. He laughs with you. You have had some great dates. This is a great list! He is lucky to have you, remember that.

When do you leave for your trip?

XOXOXOX

Jackie

[grislen]

M,

Well I have some thoughts on this.

I'll have to really watch what I say and how I say things. There are, afterall, thousands of ways to wash a kids hair, right? Maybe I should keep my big mouth shut and let him do things his way (which is what I've been doing since the hair washing incident.)

Let him do it his way. There is nothing that irratates me more than my W telling how somthing like washing my childs hair HAS TO BE DONE. You are right there are about 1000 different ways this can be done so let him do it.

There seems to be a paradox here.....H is very proud of how I took care of the children while he was gone, and says he thinks I'm a good mother, but I shouldn't offer any unsolicited advice or suggestions about childcare.

You know I think my W does a great job with our D but I dont need anyone telling me my way is wrong or telling me how to do it better. I think your H takes this a probably criticism(sp). Let him do it don't give him advice on how better to do it till he askes. It will save you a lot of grief. I mean really does it matter that much if the clothes don't match .

Anyway I hope I helped a little bit.

Lee

[mockers2]

Thank you, dragonflie, Holdingon, Dagny and Grislen. You are all so terrific! I am amazed every time I come here how wise you all are.

I appreciate your posts very much, and want to respond to all of them and catch up with all of you too, but I'll be away again from the bb for a while. My H's father died unexpectedly on Friday. It is so sad - he was a wonderful person - always with a smile on his face, a shining example of how to live a Christlike life. We will all miss him so much. I'll be here for a little while today and some tomorrow, but then will be out until Monday of next week.

Hope you all are doing well. Know I continue to keep you all in my thoughts and prayers. I will try to catch up with everyone as soon as I can.

Thank you again for all the support.

[Dagny]

Mockers, I am so sorry. Your poor H, this has to be awful. Will be thinking of you guys and keeping you in my prayers.

Jackie

[optimist]

I am so sorry about your loss. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers...

[Livnlearn]

Hello Mockers

I came across a post of yours from about April 03 on a thread about baby steps, over in Newcomers, I think. In it you said you didn't know whether the baby steps you were seeing were genuine ones which would lead your H back to the M, or just things to allow him to be friends and make it easier on himself, or words to that effect.

So I hunted down your most recent thread, to find out which in fact it was, and am SO PLEASED to see that they were in fact baby steps to reconciliation!

Gives me hope, as I have had the same fears. My H has alway said he wants us to be friends - even just after bombshell, and now that we are more friendly, nine months down the line, he seems very pleased.

Livnlearn

[Dagny]

Thinking about you. How are you and your family doing?

Jackie

[mockers2]

Thank you all for your prayers and support - I appreciate them more than you know.

Everyone is really doing well - amazingly well. We know there will continue to be rough patches, and we do miss him terribly - his death affected so many people - he was such a caring man. It is unreal, but understandable how many people loved him. H, the children and I were in a store the other day, and a man came up to my H and said that he had worked with his father, but had heard late about his death. This man said, "he was a good man...a good man." He told us that when he heard, he left work and went home. He cried as he told us this, and had to walk away.....Just a small example of what a precious and gentle spirit he was. Thank you for listening ~

Now to catch up a bit......

Dragonflie - I agree that it seems rude for my H to look around, but I also agree that he is totally unaware as they tend to be.

Holdingon - I think you are right - they do all seems to do it. I've even noticed my own father doing this! Oh my goodness!

Dagny - What a post! You've given me alot to think about. First of all, thank you for your prayers and for checking on us.

You are right - the happy, happy, happy does help in reducing my feelings of resentment and it does seem to boost my pma - "as we think, so we are." (Butchering another quote, I'm sure. ) It is also much better than worried, worried, worried (sometimes I think I am Marlin Why don't you play on the sponge beds? That's where I would play.:D)

I have just finished reading "In the Heart of the World" by Mother Theresa. It describes so well a self-less love and seeing Jesus in the world in "a distressing disguise." This is really helping me in my effort to forgive. Still along way to go, but this is key to the process.

You are right, also, Dagny and Grislen about the hair washing incident. I may have made it sound like I offer advice all the time, but I don't. I rarely say anything at all about childcare issues. And in this case, I was saying it as a way to keep her from crying, which I think was trying to meet one of my needs more than my H's. He often tolerates their crying better than I do. I find myself thinking - less now than in the past - "I'm doing something wrong. There's got to be a better way to do it, so she won't cry so much." It never entered my mind that H was doing it wrong, but I can see now how it could seem that that wass what I was implying. Your posts on this topic have also helped me see somethig that I hadn't been able to see before - how I may have come across as thinking I'm always right. This has been one thing that has been so difficult to understand - how could I have come across to him as thinking I'm always right and as someone with no self confidence at the same time? A no-self-confidence, low self esteem, know-it-all? Now I see how he could have seem me in this way.

Jackie the sleep on it rule is excellent. At least 95% of the time, it is no big deal the next day.

Your suggestion on how to handle the kids being difficult was great - I have a hard time being assertive/proactive without seeming angry.

Ignoring the eye candy thing is the right choice, I think. Act as if if not even important enough for me to notice.

Lee - You are right about the hairwashing thing - see above. It absolutely doesn't matter if the clothes match. Our children have gone to school more than a couple of times in their PJ's. Thank you for a guy's point of view.

Livnlearn - Glad to see my sitch gives you hope. My H did say even right after the bomb that he wanted us to be friends - he even used the word amicable several times (which made me cringe at the time), but our friendship really has held us together through this I think. I want to read your thread as soon as I can. It's good your H seems really happy. Hang in there and be patient with your H. I am glad there seems to be some progress.

Thank you again Dagny and Optimist for your prayers. We will continue to need them, I know.

Positives:
1. H brought me a chai latte this morning (a real treat/pampering idea)
2. H went with me to a doctor's appt. again.
3. I mentioned the possiblity of renewing our vows to my H - came right out before I could stop it - H said he had also thought of doing this. Talk about an answer to prayer.

I am working on catvhing up with everyone. Gone for a few days and goodness gracious! Please know you are in my thoughts and prayers even if I haven't posted.


Thank you all again ~