Hey there Denver, I just need to make a few short points FWIW...
1. Just a few short weeks ago you caught OM on the toilet in W bedroom watching and/or taking care of SS. Not long after that you wish her a heart felt HAPPY ANNIVERSARY???
I ask you this my friend... Would YOU respect any person that did the same thing? You W does anything she wants and good 'ol Denver is there with live and support not long after. Not attractive at all. I don't say this to hurt you my friend. I really want you to have your wife/family back.
2. A few days back I made the following comment.....
"There are consequences for bad behavior"
And you said....
"How would punishing W help my sitch?"
Not punishing Denver, consequences!!!
Like...
NOT being there for your W financially or emotionally when she needs you...
AT LEAST FOR NOW!!!
Listen, I have a friend newly divorced. He too tried to save his marriage before D day. He was unsuccessful...
Now she is angry cause she has no money, no support, and no help... My friend will do nothing more than pay what the courts ordered and not a penny more. SHE IS ANGRY AT HIM DENVER CAUSE SHE FEELS HE SHOUL DO MORE!!!
His response...
"Why should I, she choose to leave. If she needs help she has a family. She can ask them. She CHOOSE not to have me as family. I owe her nothing."
And you know something Denver... He's RIGHT!!!
Consequences Denver, NOT PUNISHMENT...
Get it?
Good luck my friend...
100% disagreement w/^^^ for numerous previously stated reasons.
You don't get it and you won't.
Not to say I agree with Denver's approach on the anniversary
but you are an angry man who confuses pride with self respect and disguises his anger w/pseudo insights about consequences, which DB says LIFE TEACHES, NOT US...
but you do NOT do DB (have you even read the book?)
You do what you want and come here and preach an approach uniquely your own...
and you like to punish self righteously
and see things in black & white. That's Not attractive or helpful.
I don't care if your w or your punitive friend's wife come home in lieu of starving on the street
and then your friend can claim he "won"...and you'll smugly say your approach
"worked" and your "marriage reconciled" b/c of shame or financial extortion
instead of lovingly working on things...you still say you have no regrets about how you treated your wife
yet you also say you "own" your mistakes...well which is it?
You sound like a bully
and that's probably why you come here to post against all that others are supporting Denver with,
instead of on your own thread.
Read the DB book and decide if you want to follow the philosophy it espouses...if not, leave.
THis isn't the place for INSISTING ON other approaches.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
and that's probably why you come here to post against all that others are supporting Denver with,
instead of on your own thread.
Read the DB book and decide if you want to follow the philosophy it espouses...if not, leave.
THis isn't the place for INSISTING ON other approaches.
I don't see SBH "bullying," as much as exhorting, urging, pleading. I agree he seems a little angry, but Denver's already said that he welcomes all views; why does SBH have any less right to post here than anyone else?
I guess we'll leave that up to Denver, as it's his thread, I guess he can speak for himself. I just hate to see anyone shouted down, simply because you disagree with them. And mixed in with the anger, I saw some good points actually.
“100% disagreement w/^^^ for numerous previously stated reasons.”
Really 25??? None of it?
“You don't get it and you won't.”
Oh I get it 25, it’s about saving people. You think you have all the answers. You don’t. Go back and read some of your responses. IMO they belong in some utopian world.
“but you are an angry man who confuses pride with self respect and disguises his anger”
Not angry 25… Realistic! Passionate! Am I pridful? Sure I am. Do you want a man without pride or self respect? HE CAUGHT OM ON THE TOILET.
“w/pseudo insights about consequences”
REALLY? I should have married you 25, because than I would get away with anything I wanted. No consequences for anything I choose to do… Utopia again… There are consequences in life.
“which DB says LIFE TEACHES, NOT US...”
There ARE consequences for bad behavior 25. You’re a lawyer. Did you learn nothing in law school? If a person murders (behavior) they get put to death (consequence). Hey, instead of putting them to death or sending them to jail let’s let “life” teach them… Utopia? I think so…
“but you do NOT do DB (have you even read the book?)”
I own it and read It many times. It’s a great GUIDE. I don’t follow it word for word. But it’s a great TOOL. I don’t even follow the bible word for word.
“You do what you want and come here and preach an approach uniquely your own...”
No, but I will infuse my opinion. Don’t you? And what I think is the best course of action.
“and you like to punish self righteously”
Maybe, but that’s something I need to work on.
and see things in black & white. That's Not attractive or helpful.
I see SOME things in black and white. Not all things 25. IMO, any man worth his weight has SOME convictions. I am no different 25. Do I see gray in Denvers sitch? Yup! But not when it comes to OM in W home. She was not honest with him. I understand Denver sees a lot of gray in that sitch (“we were not together”, “we lived in separate homes”) and that’s fine. But I don’t have to see gray in that sitch just because Denver does. But I do respect his grayness on the subject.
“I don't care if your w or your punitive friend's wife come home in lieu of starving on the street”
Useless blather 25. You sound angry…
“and then your friend can claim he "won"...and you'll smugly say your approach”
He lost 25. He lost his family. I am merely pointing out that a WAS can’t have it both ways and there are consequences for the poor choices they make. Is that so bad?
"worked" and your "marriage reconciled" b/c of shame or financial extortion”
Truth be told 25, it was not financial extortion. She was going to leave. And half of everything liquidates down to about 400K. She would have had that plus about $3500.00/month support. She would have been fine. He!!, it would have been me that needed money. You can down play my DB’ing all you want but it did work. I have not talked about our M/R in more than 6 months. I stopped the day we were in MC and W told me she felt smothered. Even SHE apologizes for her treatment of us every day.
“instead of lovingly working on things...you still say you have no regrets about how you treated your wife”
I am more loving than you think 25. Am I Perfect? No. And I regret that I became indifferent and cold to her after marriage year 14.
“yet you also say you "own" your mistakes...well which is it?”
A bit of both 25. There IS gray in life you know.
“You sound like a bully”
Not at all.
“and that's probably why you come here to post against all that others are supporting Denver with,
instead of on your own thread.”
I support Denver too. My approach is different than yours. I don’t have my own thread because it’s not what I need right now. If I do need support, I will post my own.
“Read the DB book and decide if you want to follow the philosophy it espouses...”
I have read DB. I will use it as a GUIDE, not as law. And I will stop posting to Denvers thread if he asks me to.
“if not, leave.”
Who do you think you are 25? My wife? Now who’s the bully?
“THis isn't the place for INSISTING ON other approaches.”
Not insisting… Giving advice. And with passion…
Have a great day today all…
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
Was it a tactical error? I don't know. I ultimately decided that nothing I proactively did regarding acknowledging the day was going to hurt my situation, but that NOT doing something COULD actually cause damage (W may have interpreted as me being the old Denver).
So that's why I ended up sending the text.
Denver,
First......That might have been the single longest post I have ever seen!!! hahahaha You may have de-throned "Epic-Eric" as the de-facto king of long posts (that is not to say that I can't post some long ones myself).
Okay, down to business..........
Your operating from a place of fear......it is normal. I know because of what you posted right up there. You basically said it in bold......
you were afraid that your W would make some sort of interpretation.....
Another way to look at the statement up there is to try to take out the "but" and make it sound the same as you originally intended........
The "BUTS" will get you everytime........
It really highlights when YOU are trying to justify something that you know is wrong or when you are saying something but don't really believe what it is you are saying.......
Think about it.........
Take a scenario where you are trying to apologize to someone for something you did or said to them. Often we really blame them for what we did instead of really "Owning our words/actions"
Therefore, we say......
"I'm sorry......BUT you made me do it."
translate....
"I'm sorry......BUT not really."
Soooooo......
Until you deal with that fear of how your W may or may not interpret something you do or say.......
you really are not in a position to interact with her........you will eff up the sitch.
Clearly the debate going on in your thread is passionate and thought provoking.....
I am going to tell you that IMO both sides are correct.....
(how was that for being diplomatic )
25 is trying to get you to deal with the internal demons that plague you and me and anyone else that is here and has been betrayed........that anger beast is a real b!tch.
You never really get rid of it.....and you shouldn't it is part of who you are........it is part of who I am.
You take my cheerio's away from me, I am going to get mad/angry.
It is how we deal with it and ultimately react to it that determines how others view us and interact with us.
25 is imploring you to see past your pain and focus on how your W is feeling. How she could get to a place where she could leave the marriage and cheat.
Now to be clear......There is nothing you did that caused her to cheat.......that was her decision and she will have to own that, and more importantly YOU HAVE TO LET YOUR W deal with it on her own..........and she will in TIME. (It will be very hard on her.)
This is what 25 is saying.....that you actually have to have some compassion for her in order for your heart to be in the right place to do what you need to do.
Now, you very much need to stop engaging as some of us are imploring you to do.......
However
you need to do it from a loving and compassionate place.
Hard to do.
I will continue to push you to do the right thing until your heart is in the right place to do something different.
As long as you are operating from a place of fear, and make no mistake......YOU ARE............you have not adequately dealt with the underlying issues that re-inforce that fear.
One of those issues is ANGER.
When SBH, Starsky, Faith and anyone else that advocates an action that might come off as punitive or retaliatory, it is mistaken as being anger that has not been dealt with adequately.
Here is the problem.........YOU definitely NEED to take the actions that are being suggested......
however if you have not dealt with your pain and the very valid emotions that come with your pain then your actions will wreak of ANGER.
This is really where I come down in the middle.......
You need to pull back because you are really not ready to deal with her "in-decision" yet. Now there is the added benefit that by pulling back you might actually attract your W back.....ie the dance of the pursuer and distancer.
I think that this is where we all start to disagree......it is not that we neccessarily disagree with the course of action it is that we disagree with the motivation behind the action.
Some here are trying to motivate you from a place of pride and self respect........nothing wrong with self respect and pride IF you have done the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER and it has really become part of who you are.........part of your "skin" so to speak. (nickel to Mach).
Denver, I can tell you that while you might have identified some things that you need to work on or are working on.......your words here tell some of us (ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE) that you still have some strides to make.
BTW.....these strides are not meassured by how much your W is being nice to you or is doing things with you or anything to do with your wife.
GET IT??????
I can tell you that even after you have done the work you never are ever really done.......I can tell you that some of the most thoughtful, introspective and loving MEN here on these boards still struggle to keep their motivations pure and true.
Their actions remain the same, hopefully those actions are motivated by Love.......however Anger can creep back in sometimes and it has to be dealt with again, but we learn as we go........
I will repeat the drum beat........
Stop engaging your W, close FB, drop the timelines, focus on Denver.........
Your W will be in the same place YOU left her..........
She definitely has some of her own shat to deal with.
Cheers
Oh, BTW........Happy Little Friday!!!
Formerly "missherlove"
Me49 XW49 M17 T19 S16 D20
Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
Was it a tactical error? I don't know. I ultimately decided that nothing I proactively did regarding acknowledging the day was going to hurt my situation, but that NOT doing something COULD actually cause damage (W may have interpreted as me being the old Denver).
So that's why I ended up sending the text.
Denver,
First......That might have been the single longest post I have ever seen!!! hahahaha You may have de-throned "Epic-Eric" as the de-facto king of long posts (that is not to say that I can't post some long ones myself).
Okay, down to business..........
Your operating from a place of fear......it is normal. I know because of what you posted right up there. You basically said it in bold......
you were afraid that your W would make some sort of interpretation.....
Another way to look at the statement up there is to try to take out the "but" and make it sound the same as you originally intended........
The "BUTS" will get you everytime........
It really highlights when YOU are trying to justify something that you know is wrong or when you are saying something but don't really believe what it is you are saying.......
Think about it.........
Take a scenario where you are trying to apologize to someone for something you did or said to them. Often we really blame them for what we did instead of really "Owning our words/actions"
Therefore, we say......
"I'm sorry......BUT you made me do it."
translate....
"I'm sorry......BUT not really."
Soooooo......
Until you deal with that fear of how your W may or may not interpret something you do or say.......
you really are not in a position to interact with her........you will eff up the sitch.
Clearly the debate going on in your thread is passionate and thought provoking.....
I am going to tell you that IMO both sides are correct.....
(how was that for being diplomatic )
25 is trying to get you to deal with the internal demons that plague you and me and anyone else that is here and has been betrayed........that anger beast is a real b!tch.
You never really get rid of it.....and you shouldn't it is part of who you are........it is part of who I am.
You take my cheerio's away from me, I am going to get mad/angry.
It is how we deal with it and ultimately react to it that determines how others view us and interact with us.
25 is imploring you to see past your pain and focus on how your W is feeling. How she could get to a place where she could leave the marriage and cheat.
Now to be clear......There is nothing you did that caused her to cheat.......that was her decision and she will have to own that, and more importantly YOU HAVE TO LET YOUR W deal with it on her own..........and she will in TIME. (It will be very hard on her.)
This is what 25 is saying.....that you actually have to have some compassion for her in order for your heart to be in the right place to do what you need to do.
Now, you very much need to stop engaging as some of us are imploring you to do.......
However
you need to do it from a loving and compassionate place.
Hard to do.
I will continue to push you to do the right thing until your heart is in the right place to do something different.
As long as you are operating from a place of fear, and make no mistake......YOU ARE............you have not adequately dealt with the underlying issues that re-inforce that fear.
One of those issues is ANGER.
When SBH, Starsky, Faith and anyone else that advocates an action that might come off as punitive or retaliatory, it is mistaken as being anger that has not been dealt with adequately.
Here is the problem.........YOU definitely NEED to take the actions that are being suggested......
however if you have not dealt with your pain and the very valid emotions that come with your pain then your actions will wreak of ANGER.
This is really where I come down in the middle.......
You need to pull back because you are really not ready to deal with her "in-decision" yet. Now there is the added benefit that by pulling back you might actually attract your W back.....ie the dance of the pursuer and distancer.
I think that this is where we all start to disagree......it is not that we neccessarily disagree with the course of action it is that we disagree with the motivation behind the action.
Some here are trying to motivate you from a place of pride and self respect........nothing wrong with self respect and pride IF you have done the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER and it has really become part of who you are.........part of your "skin" so to speak. (nickel to Mach).
Denver, I can tell you that while you might have identified some things that you need to work on or are working on.......your words here tell some of us (ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE) that you still have some strides to make.
BTW.....these strides are not meassured by how much your W is being nice to you or is doing things with you or anything to do with your wife.
GET IT??????
I can tell you that even after you have done the work you never are ever really done.......I can tell you that some of the most thoughtful, introspective and loving MEN here on these boards still struggle to keep their motivations pure and true.
Their actions remain the same, hopefully those actions are motivated by Love.......however Anger can creep back in sometimes and it has to be dealt with again, but we learn as we go........
I will repeat the drum beat........
Stop engaging your W, close FB, drop the timelines, focus on Denver.........
Your W will be in the same place YOU left her..........
She definitely has some of her own shat to deal with.
Who are you and can you bring back Snarky Starsky?
Man I have been catching up here. Some GREAT stuff from everyone.
Originally Posted By: Sad
Am I pridful? Sure I am. Do you want a man without pride or self respect? HE CAUGHT OM ON THE TOILET.
Sorry man disagree with this.
I posted to Denver at that time that this could be the image that could run and ruin his life.
Where is his self respect lost in catching this unfortunate person on the toilet?
You seek respect in the lavatory? You seek respect by punishing someone who chose that person?
Be my guest.
Your respect and your salvation lies in your reaction to this crap not the action of another.
You can lie, beg, steal, force, punish or sh!t golden bricks over what your W does and it matters not because you have just given her all the power in those fear based responses.
When will your fear and self doubt be gone?
When you stop giving it to someone else.
Will Denver respect himself more if he shows his W the extreme consequences of her actions?
Only if he's fooling himself.
That thinking will come home to roost soon enough.
In the course of human endeavor, over the centuries there is a very good reason PRIDE was labeled a deadly sin.
Because it is a DEAD END.
It takes us a while to realize that and you will or you will not.
The NOT I wish on no one.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
Basically, it comes down to be extremely disappointed in my W for not being stronger about being able to be alone and for not taking our S as a time to work on herself as I feel that I have.
This is very understandable that you feel that way and very common, even with folks who are piecing. But it isn't realistic. You have the benefit of DBers to help coach you to work on yourself. Your wife is not remotely in the same place you are--and that's ok. Her timeframe is completely different from yours and it may be years before you are in sync. That's ok, too. It doesn't mean you can't build your relationship and grow your love.
If you were exactly alike, you wouldn't need or want each other. You would be redundant.
Now who’s the bully?
(that is not to say that I can't post some long ones myself).