your post reminded me of several important things. Like
THIS SITE! Who knew I'd randomly stumble upon a book in the store, read it and then come to this "place"...
where I found people I'll likely never meet, who may have nothing in common with me
EXCEPT a terribly painful, ultimately beautiful journey...
these strangers, never to be met, who came to my aid in my dark hour of need...and made such a difference!
I am so grateful for the men & women I've met here. Truly. Your post reminded me of that upside
for regardless of what happens in our individual situations, THIS EXPERIENCE
of unknown anonymous people reaching out and lifting me up, is so valuable, it will always move me. At times, it felt holy.
You also discuss OM, your boundary and forgiveness. B/C this is you writing,
I won't belabor the whole forgiveness thing. I know You get it.
If it's a boundary that you simply cannot get past b/c there's something in you that doesn't allow for it, and you've examined this and must choose as you are, that's NOT the same as being punitive. It's a tough call with most people but not with you. (You're too honest for that poop.)
You have owned your part in your marital history and you are a better man for it. This, I know. And This, is very valuable.
I wonder about your comment re:how unforgivable her "stringing you along" was...
I offer a comment and a question.
My comment is that you are doing some serious mind reading/characterization of her behavior
which I am not sure is accurate or fair.
Plus it seems like gratuitously self inflicted pain & "stinkin' thinkin'" to me.
My Question is, even assuming you are right, why is that so "unforgivable"?
You can't believe she could be confused, retaining deep feelings for you while also thinking perhaps too much water had gone over the bridge?
Dare I ask, So what if she wanted to hedge her bets?
Is the "unforgivable" part of this, that you believed her to be working on YOU as a couple, while instead she was also pursuing OM and doing some comparison shopping?
I accept your objection to that. I just don't understand your reaction to it, unless you are saying "hey, I 'forgive' but I can't be married to her" which is very different than saying it's unforgivable. Sounds more like a deal breaker. I don't condemn atheists and have many friends who are, but I would never marry one. and that's fine. We don't have to agree. It's your life 2step.
Based on your lengthy & articulate history here, I sense you simply know you will not let the A go, and since that's a deal breaker for you, and therefore it is. So be it.
As for fear...you said:
I believe that most of us act out of fear. Fear that they will leave us, stop calling, and leave with OM and so on and so on. It is this fear the stops us from making rational decisions. That allows the control of the sitch to shift in favor of one person and when that person has the control it is almost always exclusively exercised to manipulate and in some extreme cases to hurt. It is our love for them that allows us to stand and take this because of fear and blame.
First, I ask you this: Is the reason you can't abide by the OM in your w's life b/c of fear? Fear she'll do it again?
If you somehow KNEW that OM was out of the picture for good, what then? Second,
when you say "control is almost exclusively used to manipulate or hurt", I say "no, 2step, not so."
I cannot accept that statement as applying to the bulk of people here. The men and women I meet here may start out punitive and self righteous, but the ones who are loving & brave, never finish their journey that way.
Some argue that there are only two core emotions...fear and love. Anger, they say, stems from fear at some level. Fear of abandonment, loss of reputation, fear of having shame, fear of rejection, etc.
I don't know but I do buy that at our core, fear is huge in this.
When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith. I remind myself of that often.
At some point, anyone who marries is making a leap of faith and either losing the fear, or learning to live with it. Fear is a partner to many gifts in life.
When I gave birth, along with the deepest sense of fulfilling purpose that I discovered within, came a quietly growing sense of terror...
As I held my baby and marvelled at it, I also began fearing the loss of, or damage to him...suddenly, ALL my nightmares and most daydreams were about the baby getting sick, abducted or having a fatal accident.
What a dichotomy!
Even with full trust, we can still lose our spouse to death.
So I say we learn to live with the fear of losing them or being hurt by them. This isn't only about LBSers.
Some of the WASs return b/c of fear or disappointment or rejection in the "outside world". Fear is certainly not unique to LBSers.
But so what? Fear can be linked to deep love in many scenarios, including what I just said about being a parent.
A Brave man is not defined as being a man without fear,
a brave man is the man who plunges forward despite the fear.
Anyone willing to fall in love and make a commitment, is a brave person.
The one who then KEEPS those commitments, is brave, strong, and forgiving person, and dang lucky.
And as you said, long term happy marriages have ALWAYS involved forgiveness of something big, at some point.
My elderly neighbor says she only counts 45 of her 48 year marriage b/c 3 of those years her h was "a real jerk"...
I didn't ask how jerky he was, but I know what she means. She forgave him, she loves him, they're old and cute together, but they did not enter their marriage having all the secrets...they worked it through, like we are all trying to do.
Forgiving Is not a skill we're born with. We have to learn it and God knows I never saw it growing up. My father would yell louder and then they'd retreat....
Never saw an apology until my father was on his death bed. Most of what he said in his final days was about the regrets he had, of which there were many. You won't be like that on your deathbed 2step.
Do you see what a gift your efforts will yield in ways that have nothing to do with your spouse?
THIS IS JUST SOME OF THE VALUE OF BRAVE INTROSPECTION AND GROWTH...which you've engaged in so valiantly.
2step,
I think your w will do a lot of 2nd guessing.
She will wonder about so many choices she made.
Unlike her, you know in your heart you gave it your best. That has value.
Sometimes you may wonder if you tried or hung in there, for too long.
I would rather have that "problem" - than to wonder if I'd tried too little.
We all wish you well 2step, and hope you DO keep posting. (insert Southern accent here)
"We like how you talk"...so keep it up!
ps FWIW, I didn't pick up vibes of blame in much of your post.
Great post 25...
Now just looking forward to 2Step's rebuttal to himself that he promised.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I am getting a lot of farewells on here but I am not leaving. Unless something earth shattering happens this will be my final thread and that is what I mean. I still read all of your post I guess I have turned into a lurker. HA! Anyways I am swamped at work so my responses will be spotty but I will respond to everyone. Even some of the post from my last thread.
25
Thank you for the thought provoking questions and for the beautiful post. I will give it some thought before I respond. The post I started with took me close to a week to write so I want to make sure when I answer your question I approach it with the same care and consideration.
your post reminded me of several important things. Like
THIS SITE! Who knew I'd randomly stumble upon a book in the store, read it and then come to this "place"...
where I found people I'll likely never meet, who may have nothing in common with me
EXCEPT a terribly painful, ultimately beautiful journey...
these strangers, never to be met, who came to my aid in my dark hour of need...and made such a difference!
I am so grateful for the men & women I've met here. Truly. Your post reminded me of that upside
for regardless of what happens in our individual situations, THIS EXPERIENCE
of unknown anonymous people reaching out and lifting me up, is so valuable, it will always move me. At times, it felt holy.
You also discuss OM, your boundary and forgiveness. B/C this is you writing,
I won't belabor the whole forgiveness thing. I know You get it.
If it's a boundary that you simply cannot get past b/c there's something in you that doesn't allow for it, and you've examined this and must choose as you are, that's NOT the same as being punitive. It's a tough call with most people but not with you. (You're too honest for that poop.)
You have owned your part in your marital history and you are a better man for it. This, I know. And This, is very valuable.
I wonder about your comment re:how unforgivable her "stringing you along" was...
I offer a comment and a question.
My comment is that you are doing some serious mind reading/characterization of her behavior
which I am not sure is accurate or fair.
Plus it seems like gratuitously self inflicted pain & "stinkin' thinkin'" to me.
My Question is, even assuming you are right, why is that so "unforgivable"?
You can't believe she could be confused, retaining deep feelings for you while also thinking perhaps too much water had gone over the bridge?
Dare I ask, So what if she wanted to hedge her bets?
Is the "unforgivable" part of this, that you believed her to be working on YOU as a couple, while instead she was also pursuing OM and doing some comparison shopping?
I accept your objection to that. I just don't understand your reaction to it, unless you are saying "hey, I 'forgive' but I can't be married to her" which is very different than saying it's unforgivable. Sounds more like a deal breaker. I don't condemn atheists and have many friends who are, but I would never marry one. and that's fine. We don't have to agree. It's your life 2step.
Based on your lengthy & articulate history here, I sense you simply know you will not let the A go, and since that's a deal breaker for you, and therefore it is. So be it.
As for fear...you said:
I believe that most of us act out of fear. Fear that they will leave us, stop calling, and leave with OM and so on and so on. It is this fear the stops us from making rational decisions. That allows the control of the sitch to shift in favor of one person and when that person has the control it is almost always exclusively exercised to manipulate and in some extreme cases to hurt. It is our love for them that allows us to stand and take this because of fear and blame.
First, I ask you this: Is the reason you can't abide by the OM in your w's life b/c of fear? Fear she'll do it again?
If you somehow KNEW that OM was out of the picture for good, what then? Second,
when you say "control is almost exclusively used to manipulate or hurt", I say "no, 2step, not so."
I cannot accept that statement as applying to the bulk of people here. The men and women I meet here may start out punitive and self righteous, but the ones who are loving & brave, never finish their journey that way.
Some argue that there are only two core emotions...fear and love. Anger, they say, stems from fear at some level. Fear of abandonment, loss of reputation, fear of having shame, fear of rejection, etc.
I don't know but I do buy that at our core, fear is huge in this.
When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith. I remind myself of that often.
At some point, anyone who marries is making a leap of faith and either losing the fear, or learning to live with it. Fear is a partner to many gifts in life.
When I gave birth, along with the deepest sense of fulfilling purpose that I discovered within, came a quietly growing sense of terror...
As I held my baby and marvelled at it, I also began fearing the loss of, or damage to him...suddenly, ALL my nightmares and most daydreams were about the baby getting sick, abducted or having a fatal accident.
What a dichotomy!
Even with full trust, we can still lose our spouse to death.
So I say we learn to live with the fear of losing them or being hurt by them. This isn't only about LBSers.
Some of the WASs return b/c of fear or disappointment or rejection in the "outside world". Fear is certainly not unique to LBSers.
But so what? Fear can be linked to deep love in many scenarios, including what I just said about being a parent.
A Brave man is not defined as being a man without fear,
a brave man is the man who plunges forward despite the fear.
Anyone willing to fall in love and make a commitment, is a brave person.
The one who then KEEPS those commitments, is brave, strong, and forgiving person, and dang lucky.
And as you said, long term happy marriages have ALWAYS involved forgiveness of something big, at some point.
My elderly neighbor says she only counts 45 of her 48 year marriage b/c 3 of those years her h was "a real jerk"...
I didn't ask how jerky he was, but I know what she means. She forgave him, she loves him, they're old and cute together, but they did not enter their marriage having all the secrets...they worked it through, like we are all trying to do.
Forgiving Is not a skill we're born with. We have to learn it and God knows I never saw it growing up. My father would yell louder and then they'd retreat....
Never saw an apology until my father was on his death bed. Most of what he said in his final days was about the regrets he had, of which there were many. You won't be like that on your deathbed 2step.
Do you see what a gift your efforts will yield in ways that have nothing to do with your spouse?
THIS IS JUST SOME OF THE VALUE OF BRAVE INTROSPECTION AND GROWTH...which you've engaged in so valiantly.
2step,
I think your w will do a lot of 2nd guessing.
She will wonder about so many choices she made.
Unlike her, you know in your heart you gave it your best. That has value.
Sometimes you may wonder if you tried or hung in there, for too long.
I would rather have that "problem" - than to wonder if I'd tried too little.
We all wish you well 2step, and hope you DO keep posting. (insert Southern accent here)
"We like how you talk"...so keep it up!
ps FWIW, I didn't pick up vibes of blame in much of your post.
Great post 25...
Now just looking forward to 2Step's rebuttal to himself that he promised.
I believe that most of us act out of fear. Fear that they will leave us, stop calling, and leave with OM and so on and so on. It is this fear the stops us from making rational decisions.
I agree. I think that many LBS simply don't act out of fear. They don't make the changes required.
However,
I think many also act out of anger.
I do not think either should be in the driver seat.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
This is where I believe your difference of opinion is rooted. You seem to see empowering the LBS with what THEY CAN DO as bashing.
I see it very differently.
I agree with this statement 100%. SBH calls it bashing, when in reality, all we are talking about is WHAT WE CAN CONTROL. We focus on the LBS bc the majority of us here are LBS. What can we control? Only ourselves... not the actions, thoughts or choices of the WAS or any other person. It may come across as bashing bc that is what we focus on...
But what other choice do we have? Spend our time here pointing blame at the WAS? Deflecting responsibility for the things that we SHOULD own that contributed to the downfall of our Ms?
That helps no person or situation here IMO.
We learn and grow by accepting responsibility for our role in what has happened... we learn and grow by WORKING to correct THOSE THINGS...
THOSE THINGS... which are the ONLY things for which we have any control over.
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Denver, I agree with everything you said. Every word. Now what does anything you said have to do with the LBS "mind reading", or "not being fair" to the WAS or not reacting with anger (or fear) if our S decides to "window shop".
Boundaries Denver. It's about what is or is not acceptable behavior.
It's about respect for yourself.
Growing and learning is necessary. And accepting our roll is necessary.
There is absolute value on this site. I personally learn every day.
But I will not accept ALL the blame. And it appears that the LBS take 90% of it. And I believe that is an unreasonable amount of blame. 50/50 is a better value.
When I look at some of the old posts by Coach and others, it wasn't so one sided. Go back and see for yourselves.
Where are the consequences for bad behavior?
They no longer exist on this site...
I will sign off for a while. As you all know, sometimes you need a break from this site...
Good luck all...
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
BTW, I love a good debate... And you lawyers can debate...
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
However, I think many also act out of anger. I do not think either should be in the driver seat.
I couldn’t agree more Jack. It is a complicated thing, at least for me, to not mix anger with letting go lovingly. But it is vitally important to work through your own anger and not project it because in the end you only end up hurting yourself.
Originally Posted By: KenF
best of luck to you. i'm from your future and it does get better. i'm going to lay this out there and try to have it make sense, but i fear i will fail at that. i cannot and will not ever forgive the X and the OM. but that only hurts me. the act of forgiveness has nothing to do with the WAS or what was done. its an act to allow ourselves to live a little lighter in the baggage department. purely selfish reasons. we say "forgive them", but really it means "allow yourself to move past their action"
Ken thank you for posting this. I love to see a vet come out of nowhere and share their thoughts. I think that your opening line should be standard for any new poster.
I see you are from Central NJ. What part, if you don’t mind me asking? This whole time I thought I was the lone DBer from NJ.
Originally Posted By: KenF
"In a ham and eggs breakfast, the hen is involved, but the pig is committed".
Probably one of the best quotes I have seen on the boards. I love it
