I agree with the do things for you not her. That seems to be working in my sitch. My H & I are still living together and getting along. He is participating more in our lives with the household chores and children more than he has in years. Still has OW mind you. But I'm am seeing small positive changes. It is definitely a fog.
T: 28 years M: 23 years D19 S15 OW Discovery: 3/6/11
Grr... another thread that runs through this is that she feels plagued by "shoulds", ie it irritates her that she's staying and going to counseling, because she's only doing it "because she should, not because she wants to."
So today her Facebook status update was a quote: ""I should" is not good enough for the heart and soul. When we can say truly, "I want," we can then resolve to say "I will.""
Which... man, I wanted to rail against, because I'm frustrated that she views working on the marriage as "I should" when she must WANT the things a working marriage could provide: a loyal fan and cheerleader, companionship, resources and freedom, etc. And because I stuck with her when she was in her worst bouts of depression because I vowed to stick with her in sickness or in health. Because I tend to WANT to do the things I SHOULD instead of pouting like a spoiled child when things are hard (which also, to me and selfishly, explains why *I* am actually in good shape and actually finished my doctorate even though it was HER stated goal to be in shape and done by about two years ago).
It galled me, but I "like"d the comment just because it was the opposite of my reaction. I'm still seething, tho.
Oh man Hoswald, I really feel for you. I keep hearing a lot of the same things in my sitch. Getting mixed messages has been a daily occurrence since my problems started a month and a half ago, and it just drives me up the wall...and leaves me utterly confused about how I'm supposed to act.
My W is also going for a combined MS/PhD right now, granted she's a bit younger than yours, but I know that the stress that it causes for her leaves her unable to really concentrate on dealing with the thoughts and emotions about our relationship...think that could be the case with yours as well? In our case, having W staying with her parents for most of the week then having date nights and occasionally staying at our house has really relaxed her. We don't even really refer to it as a sep., but I guess that's what it is. And then I get the mixed message when we have a nice weekend where she says it feels "fake"...what the %$@& does that mean?!?!?!? So yeah, I hear you on the confusion.
The physical thing is a big issue for us too. Since our sitch started W has not kissed me (or anything more exciting for that matter), but we do hug from time to time. She says that being physical is tough because all the negativity has hurt her attraction for me, which killed me to hear but was something that I could understand. And the thing is, I know that my pursuing and talking just amplified that and pushed her further away. Same thing with saying "I love you", which I haven't heard from her since March 8th at about 11:45PM.
What I've decided to do, and this is a BIG 180 for me since I'm a big talker, is to drop all talk about the marriage until her semester is over, and even then to only talk if she brings it up. Combining that with my GAL stuff is really helping, though it kills me not to see her more often and to talk to her about the things on my mind. It has to be done though, and I know it works because her mood is so much brighter when I'm not constantly asking her where we stand. The hardest thing is that when you do get the positive reactions, you want to go a little further and a little further...but that pushing seems to always cross over into a pursuing kind of behavior, at least for me. We have to know where the line is, and we have to constantly tell ourselves not to cross it but allow our W to make the choice to do that. In both your and my sitch, I think both our W's know how we feel...we have to let the choice be theirs.
All in all though, I'd say keep doing what you're doing man...and be patient. I have to constantly keep telling myself that too, but I've learned from all I've read here and from my DB coach that it is an absolute necessity if we want to get where we want to be.
Keep posting too man, I just switched from being a reader to an active poster, and it's already made a big difference for me.
BITS M: 35 W: 27 T 7.5 years M 5 years No kids My EA: 3/08 Her EA: 1/11, discovered 3/11 (ongoing?) ILYBINILY, D mentioned 3/8/11 W at parents house: 4/16/11
Thanks, Moose. My patience paid off at least a little with one friend posting on her FB quote "well yes, but part of growing up is wanting the things you should."
But MAN, it's rough! We went for a walk around a lake and then dinner, and ... if she'd totally given up, she wouldn't have gone with me and had fun conversations, right. But if she was really interested in fixing things, she wouldn't be so tense all the time and feel a fight-or-flight reaction constantly. Which is it, and ... well, how can I help? That's another thing that hurts bad... I *do* love her, and it hurts me to see her in pain like this, even while I'm very angry and confused. I don't want her to feel tense and panicked; I want her to feel comfortable and supported and free to work on her thesis and know that I'm there cheering her on.
That's one separation I would endorse: sending her back to her sister to finish her degree. I just don't know if it would be enough, and I fear any separation which really puts her surrounded by her friends, which sounds mean, but... I know she's lonely here, but if she would only get a job, move forward, put out feelers, get friends... that would fix SO MUCH of the problem. She feels like she's torn between "live with friends and have a great fun time all the time" and "live alone with husband she's not feeling great about and sit at home all day lonely." Well, no great surprise THAT choice is confusing.
Keeping a PMA is tricky business these days. So far I've managed it... next two nights I'm out of the house doing GAL stuff (I wish I enjoyed it more; would rather be at home snuggling making love--coming up on a year since that, tho), and hopefully that'll be good with her too.
Ah, I feel so lonely. It's REALLY hard not to try and talk to her about OR stuff. Talking about the movie we watched last night just seems so... banal in the face of life-crushing despair. But I do it anyway, and smile and laugh.
The trickiest bit about OR talk is that I know one of the things she has stated that she wants is for me to notice when she's down and listen to her complain without judging. But since what causes her the most stress is the relationship, if I ask her how her day went and she says "things are just... tense", I'm not sure what to say to that except "yeah, I know; this [censored] but I really appreciate you trying" or something similar.
May try a DB coach; our MC isn't being very helpful with "what to do"--and by now we've rehashed our problems so many times I think we're not learning much.
Baffling night... had a great long conversation about philosophy of heroism in literature, wound up talking about her research in leadership and such... got good chances to compliment her in a non-relationship way and such... but still definitely got a "eh, it's like I'm talking to a friend or associate" vibe.
Holy smoke, this is hard. Now going to go off and read "His Needs, Her Needs" to see if it's helpful (I'm a'goin' through the literature; chewed through several Gottman books, Chapman, now this, and STILL can't find my vanished copy of DR... no idea where that puppy is hidden but I didn't make it all the way through before losing it; may wind up buying a second copy).
One thing's for sure, I'm going to make someone a fantastic husband after all this. Just hope it's the right person (and that I don't crack the other way and get bitterly cynical about marriage for the rest of my life...)
Hoswald Don't sweat it, relapses in negativity are typical. She had to do a lot of self convincing to become a WAW. She had to thicken her skin, and harden her heart to be able to walk away. She convinced herself there was no love, when there most likely is at least some left. When she gets close to you some of these protections get pulled away, and she feels vulnerable and exposed. Thus she backlashes in order to feel safe again. Remember to validate her feelings during this time, and let it pass without going into pursuing actions. In a way it is true that she shouldn't do this out of some moral obligation, and instead should choose to willingly do it. Otherwise she will never truly open up to you, and resent you for "forcing" her. That's why it is always recommended to forgo R talk, it forces the issue and makes them feel cornered and pressured. Sound like what you are doing is going great. Expect the negativity rebounds, but enjoy the moments of bliss.
OK, read "His Needs, Her Needs" last night--seems like good advice if I'd followed it a year ago (curse, swear). And indeed it did two things for me--help resolve (once again) to understand and fulfil her emotional needs, and (and this is important) made me realize how many of my own needs were unmet by our existing relationship.
Of course this just spurs me on. But interactions are still strange--very "friendly" but nothing more (we went walking around a local lake yesterday and then to dinner with an evening of her computing and me gaming in the living room and then a great discussion about heroism and philosophy). But no spark of anything.
One of the things she has said she needs that I'm not presently providing is "emotional connection" (she CAN NOT describe what this means; with our second MC, she kept saying this: "You know, 'emotional connection'. I can't explain it, but... you know, 'emotional connection'!) I think I've gleaned the idea that it's a sense of shared purpose and knowledge, that you know what the other person is feeling, that you share the same goals and want to help the other person be who they can be. Fine! But I find it difficult to work on this and detach at the same time.
Another thing she counts as an "empty need" is "spark"--"you know, that spark that gets you out doing things, that makes you want to go do stuff and be daring." VERY frustrating as I missed the mark on that one by trying to coach, but also seem to miss again when I try to get her to try new things. So she sits at home all day and blames me; very frustrating.
A third need is a sense of adventure, sort of... she's said multiple times that she felt like maybe she fell in love with me because my family always wound up taking us on crazy adventures and we don't do that so much. After YEARS of trying to get her to do thrilling activities with me, learn scuba, go on trips, and after our last three years overseas having fantastic times, this is a puzzler.
So figuring out how to act is strange. It's hard to detach and work on emotional connection; it's hard to motivate without pushing; it's hard to adventure with someone who feels like they've dropped anchor (she showed interest in indoor skydiving so I bought her a gift certificate for Christmas... I have not been able to get her to go YET).
Ah, a puzzler. Won't see her much today, but she has IC and that always worries me as I think her IC'er is validating her "it's over and there's nothing I can do" vibe. GRRR.
I have to say, NONE of my experiences with individual or couples counselors, for marriage or otherwise, has done ANYTHING to recommend the practice to me.
Hmmm, I may have to try "His Needs, Her Needs" too. Have you read through 5LL? Got some great insight into myself from it, maybe that one will help as well, especially because she brought up "spark" and "emotional connection" stuff.
Totally get where you're coming from though. That "emotional connection" wasn't there for us either, and it's been a big 180 for me to show more support for W's goals with school, work, etc. I always shared her goals, but I learned the hard way that I wasn't showing that to her in the way she needed to see it. And trying to strike that balance between detaching and maintaining the connection is such a tough one...still fighting myself on it all the time.
Having W get out of our house for a bit, as painful as it was, is actually helping us I think. With work and school on top of dealing with me, she was stressed WAY out. Since she couldn't step away from work and school, guess that left me with the short end of the stick! The thing is though, and I think this is something you might need to think about, when W was with me, she was constantly worried about how I would react to every little thing she did and I was constantly trying to dissect everything to figure out what it meant about us. It wasn't something we talked about until after she left, but when we were together, it didn't allow her any time to process or deal with anything she was thinking or feeling because she constantly had to worry about how I was going to feel.
Now I'm not suggesting you tell her to go away and figure herself out, but just like me, you need to detach brother! It is the hardest thing I've ever done, like trying to will my heart to beat less or something, but I've already seen differences in just a few days. Detach, validate, no R talk...Detach, validate, no R talk...
And if you're on the fence about a DB coach, I'd give it a shot. Laurie has been absolutely amazing for me, keeps me so focused on solutions and goals while still giving me a place to vent. Worth every penny so far!
I see lots of positives there for you Hoswald, keep it up!
BITS M: 35 W: 27 T 7.5 years M 5 years No kids My EA: 3/08 Her EA: 1/11, discovered 3/11 (ongoing?) ILYBINILY, D mentioned 3/8/11 W at parents house: 4/16/11
Hmm--came back projecting confidence from swing/salsa class ("Aw, you should come sometime--it's fun!") and got a few laughs out of her, then watched a movie together; during the day she coordinated repairs to our hot tub as if she was planning on staying. It's so close to being a functional relationship... and going much better since I stopped pleading/crying where she could tell, etc. But jeez, I still break down where she CAN'T see, so I'm clearly not "there" yet, and she still feels "trapped" as if staying would be losing whenever the subject comes up.
But I seize any small victory and cheer. Privately.
Still can't find my DR book. Where the heck did I put it? I could swear it was on my desk...
Still unsure how progress is going. Some of my GAL efforts are paying off for me, and W seems positive about them, but while she's not saying it, she's almost giving off a "see, you'll be OK when I leave" vibe. We still get along great, play together well, and she occasionally gives off "yeah, I could stay around" vibes (like calling in someone to fix the hot tub, or going to get woodpecker prevention stuff, or talking about renovation plans) but still no progress on being a couple.
Our next MC session is next week and I'm actually kinda scared; I worry that she's got something big and "I'm outta here" to say and is saving it up for a "safe environment".
I dread going home every day, but every time I do we have fun. I so don't know how this is going. We're going to a comedy concert this weekend and should have good fun, and I guess the fact that we even CAN have good fun is progress. But as long as she feels trapped and unwilling to work at her thesis or getting a job, I know she's building resentment against me. There's a strong sense of time pressure. Sure wish I knew what to do!
