The last 12 hours have been fun. I found out that my H might be in the early stages of an EA with a woman from work. She had told her fiance that my H was meeting some of her emotional needs that he wasn't. Her fiance moved out about the same time my H did, but he's gone home now and they are in MC and he thinks their R is improving. He's using a lot of the DB principles without having read the book.
I called her at work and asked her point-blank if she's having an affair with my H. She denied any form of inappropriate closeness on either of their parts and seemd shocked that I would question that. I told her that if I thought that way, her fiance likely did too - she did not tell me they had talked about this, but said she would talk to him about it later.
She told me more about her conversations with H, which matched up with what he had always told me (they discussed our problems from 4 years ago and how that related to her situation now). She thinks he still loves me and she encouraged me to drag him to MC. Her analysis of what SHE thinks is wrong with him matches mine dead-on - that he's unhappy in general, has no idea how to make himself happy, and thinks that starting over with new job & no wife is going to magically get him that way. She also said he's conflicted on whether he's doing the right thing and is miserable. I have no idea if he told her any of this or if she's making deductions like I am.
After I hung up with her she went to talk to H and apparently said they couldn't be as close friends any more. He was livid when he called me this morning and accused me of trying to destroy all of his friendships. I agreed not to be friendly with the people he stayed with when he moved out, as they are primarily his friends.
There was lots of spew about friends intermixed with comments like "it's too late to look at where our R went wrong" and "you shouldn't have tried so hard to drive me away this summer". I validated a little, apologized that he had felt uncomfortable at the discussion but that I needed to know answers for my own peace of mind. (H response - you always do things for your peace of mind without worrying about blowing up everyone else's lives.) He told me to be careful or he could make this a lot more difficult - I responded that I could increase the difficulty as well.
It's becoming more and more obvious that despite his initial comments that we share responsibility for the breakdown of our marriage, he's blaming pretty much everything on me, and that despite saying he's not angry with me anymore, there's some deepset anger under there.
I've sent emails to the friends he thought I was poisoning to apologize if I said anything inappropriate and that I did not mean to stand in the way of their friendship. I am planning to leave H alone until next week, when he should get to see the kids again, and then act As If he's happy to see me and be happy and energetic. I'm going to enjoy the holiday with my kids.
One issue I have is with 180s. One of the things that really bothers him, which came out again today, is that he feels that I often do what I think is right for me without weighing the effects on everyone else. (He's pretty hot that we argued about a motorcycle in the spring - I thought it wasn't safe, he thought I didn't want him to be happy, I gave in after a few months and he bought it anyway.) He thinks me calling his friend is the same type of thing, and that some of what I've asked for in our initial D talks is also me not thinking abotu what he wants. I understand why he thinks that way, but in these situations I don't know that I CAN act differently. He doesn't notice when I do quietly acquiese to what he wants even though I disagree, he only registers the instances where I do take a stand. I don't know if I can fix this.
Now that you know, and have spoken to her, as well as your H, please keep the info to yourself.
Sharing it with friends and family, will just color their view of the situation and make potential reconciliation more difficult.
Is there any validity to him accusing you of only thinking of yourself?
Is it something that you feel you want to change for you or for your M, or not at all?
Very little, is unchangable if we want to change it.
I am blond and Polish. A deadly combination. I sometimes do really dumb things like grab Scrubby Bubbles instead of hairspray. And realize it when it is too late.
I am also very intelligent. However, I have to slow myself down, to change what is something that is essentially unchangable about myself.
If you want to change something, you can. It won't happen overnight, sometimes it might take a very long time, but it is possible. Just make sure that it is really something that you feel needs changing if you are going to do it.
Looking inside, is hard, but it is what helps us all grow on this journey.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Thanks cat, I've told my mother and sister because I needed someone to talk to last night, but I'm not planning to tell anyone else.
I think that it is often hard for me to see his perspective at first when I feel strongly about something. In the last few years I've been insecure with him, and that has made me less willing to see his side and to instead think "if he loved me, he'd agree my feelings were more important." I think he felt the same way about me. When one of us finally gave in on whatever it was, we'd feel even less secure, and that made the cycle repeat. This led to some major stubbornness and resentment on both our parts, and I think is his biggest complaint of our marriage.
When we were both able to take a step back and see the other person's perspective, we often BOTH changed our minds and were able to reach a compromise more easily. Our decision process for having baby 2 brought us a LOT closer - after we bumped heads for a few months over will we/won't we, we took a timeout, tried to truly understand the other, and amazingly we each gravitated to the other person's position. It took a lot of discussion and negotiating, but we reached what was OUR decision, and not his or mine.
I am trying very hard to see things from his perspective right now and have tried to really analyze what he tells me about our problems and about what he wants now. I'm trying not to speak as quickly so that I have time to think about what he says; or if I do speak quickly and later can see his POV then I try to apologize and explain what I understood of what he said later.
However, as he continues to move toward divorce I will stand up for what I think is best for our children. There are only a few things that I feel are hard-and-fast lines in the sand for me; the rest I am willing to negotiate on to make sure the settlement is fair for both of us. I'm trying to take these discussions slowly, so that I have time to ask questions, find his POV, and think about it before I push for anything.
I hope to get more tips from my IC when she gets back from her honeymoon. Any suggestions from a DB point of view?
In the last few years I've been insecure with him, and that has made me less willing to see his side and to instead think "if he loved me, he'd agree my feelings were more important."
This is a thought that I understand very well.
Truth, just because someone loves you, doesn't mean that they are always going to do things that you think are right and they aren't always gonna do things the way that you want them to. That does NOT mean that they don't love you.
This is something that I still struggle with once in a while.
Then I have to remind myself to look at it differently. Instead of seeing what, to me, glaringly screams "you fool, he doesn't really love you, or he would just do ABC"...
That can then lead you down a road of monsters in your head...
I have to turn it around and see all of the things that are done that show me love. The things that are present daily and are constant reminders of what his love for me looks like.
And then it is much easier to say to myself "shut up monsters, he is a human being too"
While you are not in a place that it might be easy to see the love right now, you can find the loving things he did in the past and that might also help to dispell some of your anger and frustration.
Originally Posted By: CajunRose
I am trying very hard to see things from his perspective right now and have tried to really analyze what he tells me about our problems and about what he wants now. I'm trying not to speak as quickly so that I have time to think about what he says; or if I do speak quickly and later can see his POV then I try to apologize and explain what I understood of what he said later.
Maybe take a little more time, and really do your best to not speak quickly so that you don't have to apologize down the road.
That could help to avoid more conflict.
Additionally, you are two different people. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
H called tonight and apologized for attributing motives to my actions - very surprising, he never apologizes for anything. I told him why I suspected OW. He said that I wasn't his friend for a long time, and she was. I told him that was his choice not to confide in me, and that confiding in someone else was inappropriate and contributed to the breakdown in our marriage.
I told him that I wasn't sure if I would ever want him back, and he said that the type of husband I wanted did not fit with who he was. I asked for details and he said he would have to think about it to make a concise answer.
I said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to go to MC anymore, and that if I went it would only be for closure (H: we are never getting back together, so that is the only reason to go). He said he would go if I would agree to conditions, the first one being no unnecessary requests, like the pesky morality clause (no overnight love interests with the kids around) that he disagrees with. We discussed that for quite a while, and he agreed I could likely get the judge to put that in the agreement, but that he would then play hardball with everything else. I told him that was his choice - not the way I wanted to play it, but I would be happy to let our lawyers run the discussions. He also told me that this could make him hate me, and that would make the next 20 years very difficult. I repeated that his emotions were his choice. I choose not to hate him for his actions, and if he makes the opposite choice that is for him to live with. I also said I would not be held to emotional blackmail - give in now only to have him threaten to hate me next week over something else. I repeated a lot that these were his choices - to get a divorce, to potentially live with another woman without marriage, to be mean in the divorce proceedings, whether to hate me - but that it was my choice to provide stability to the children.
I finally told him this was unproductive and we would not discuss any more tonight. He is coming over Sunday to pack the rest of his stuff. I never did find out what the "other" conditions were for him to go to MC. I'm not desperate enough to go that I will just agree to what he wants.
In his view, the morality clause is me trying to control his life for the next 17 years. In my view, this is me trying to instill in my kids the morals that we had agreed to teach them, whether he chose to live by them or not. I'd be interested in other opinions - am I being unreasonable in insisting on this clause?
I called H back tonight to ask that he warn me before I get served with papers, and he said he filed today. I should have the papers next week.
At least I know now why he wasn't willing to work on our marriage in the six months before he moved out, no matter how hard I tried. He didn't need that emotional connection with me anymore.
Had a long R talk with H today. He was pretty upset - almost crying through most of it. We've finally isolated the core of our issues, I think. He never got over my ultimatum 6 years ago that we have children or divorce. He feels like he is not enough for me. I asked him what it would take for him to be secure in my love, and at first he said there was no way for that to happen. Then he finally said he didn't think I would agree to what he would need to feel that. I pointed out that it isn't right for him to decide what I am willing to do. He said he'd try to write down a list of things that would help him get over that (I've already got a list of things I need from him to feel secure with him). Even IF he finished the list, and IF I think I'm able to do all of the things on that list, the choice of whether I get the opportunity lies with him, and right now I think he is just too afraid and weary of being hurt to agree. I figure if we both agreed to give this a real shot and leave the bitterness behind we have a 50-50 chance of making a good relationship, but I think there's a less than 5% chance for him to agree to trying.
It makes me sad that we've had 6 years of miscommunication, and that neither of us could tell the other one fully loved the other, and that now we've finally both realized what the problems are, he can't let go of his hurt and bitterness to move forward with me.
I'm not sure how to apply the DB principles here. The R talks actually seem to be helping, when we are both in the right frame of mind to have them, as at least we've now drilled down to THE issue.
Talks do seem to help for you to improve the feeling of your situation.
You seem to like numbers/statistics, correct me if I've misunderstood (50/50 chance, 5% chance). Let that go, those numbers aren't real. What's real is your relationship, it's a living thing. You nurture it or you starve it. It's ever changing...not once and done. All relationships are. Change is the only constant. The 'one' thing....is the one that that is articulated today.
So change your behavior to change his behavior. Be flexible. You obviously still have love in your relationship. Let it breathe.
H is planning to come over Sunday to get the rest of his things. I know he was really upset the last time he was moving things out of the house, so he'll likely be upset Sunday too. That would not be a good time to bring up R talk. I'm considering asking him if he would meet me one night during the week to finish our talk from Wed.
I made a list of the behaviors I would need from H to be fully secure in him again. Is there any point in giving this to him unless he asks? Although he is talking to me sometimes about each of our resentment/insecurities that have led us to this point, he still sounds very firm on divorce, and I don't know if it would be detrimental to give him the list, like I'm making demands on him or assuming that he is willing to meet those needs.
