I don't know if there is a "forgiving personality" and an "unforgiving personality", or if everything depends on the situation. Where the spouse is unrepentant, is forgiveness wasted? What about the spouse who can't forgive himself even though his spouse is willing to forgive him? The person who doesn't trust that the other can forgive? Human relations are so complicated and difficult!
thanks for your words Saffie. at Retrouvaille they tell u exactly that. funny bc yest we had our weekly post weekend meeting, and my W was "out of it" or seemed uninterested. she later relayed how this whole thing seems so tiring at times. the alternative i told her? did she think D would cure it all? funny but do they think that walking away and going w/ D will make it all better? that i will still be in her life and she in mines. our children? we did love one another once (or at least she did me). i think that it is worth the effort. right now i feel as if i am alone. suspect she is backsliding just a little. it worries me.
there is something to be said about having a forgiving personality. it starts w/ u forgiving yourself. then u try and send message that u are open to forgiving them. u do that in your words and deeds. i have agreed to not let myself think about OM and my W meeting in roadside motels. the thought flits into my brain but i do not let it linger.
too true. it would be better to be a robot sometimes.
I don't know if there is a "forgiving personality" and an "unforgiving personality", or if everything depends on the situation. Where the spouse is unrepentant, is forgiveness wasted? What about the spouse who can't forgive himself even though his spouse is willing to forgive him? The person who doesn't trust that the other can forgive? Human relations are so complicated and difficult!
I've seen people write, "I'll forgive him if he just comes home--I'm a very forgiving person like that." However, to me that seems more like a bargaining position than genuine forgiveness. To me, forgiveness seems to involve a thorough examination of what a person expects from a healthy relationship, how s/he contributed to the problem, and the determination to lead a healthier life in specific ways. In other words, a "forgiving personality" might stem from a desire to please others, while an "unforgiving personality" could be a form of judging others. So the reason for the forgiveness is paramount.
Is the forgiveness "wasted" if the spouse is unrepentant? From my experience forgiving an unrepentant child molester, the mindset of the "forgiven" is irrelevant--the relief is all for the forgiver. When I got to the point where I was ready to go through the process of forgiving my H (the first few times I had to stop the process because I was still too angry), I didn't tell him what I'd done. Even if the injuring person doesn't know he's forgiven, the injured one is set free. And perhaps the resulting change in your behaviour might help them to begin to forgive themselves?
I've been doing some reading on the Karpman Drama Triangle--quite illuminating stuff. Essentially, some of us carry limiting roles which we learned in childhood into our adult lives. During a crisis we can retreat back into being Victims, Rescuers or Accusers, and tend to switch around on the triangle. (That's why a person having an affair can still feel like they're the victim, as well as trying to "rescue" a very messed-up OP, and hurling accusations at the spouse.)
The spouse who says, "You'll never forgive me for what I did" is unable to give up his Victim position and take responsibility for his own life. Similarly, if he can't forgive himself, he's choosing to stay stuck in the role of his own Accuser.
As LBS, we stay stuck on the triangle if we insist on seeing ourselves as Victims ("I'll never be able to trust anyone again"), Rescuers ("I forgive you because I've always been so much stronger than you") or Accusers ("At least I'VE never had an AFFAIR!"). In all of these cases we're not being completely honest with ourselves about our motivations, or how we gain self-worth from seeing ourselves in that particular way. The only way to leave the triangle (and the dysfunctions in our family of origin) is to forgive.
I cant forgive him, yet. I walk around with accusations ready to form, I block them, dont necessarily express them but it affects my mood, my being, my daily life.
Through this horrible process I realised my love for H was genuine, bigger and stronger than of what I thought myself capable of. Now, I wonder if that is really true. I wonder if pride played a big role all these months/years.
I am jealous of other couples that have "no infidelity" bewteen them. I am feeling this scar 24hrs a day every day. Everything feels...not good enough, not real enough, not pure enough. He feels to me as a man that wasted OUR life and came back without ever being able to make up for these last years.
The lies were told, the hurt was caused, he took away something unilaterely and broke it. What he came back for, is broken. I look at him and see him as someone that felt passion, love for someone else while I was still there, alive and willing. He chose someone over me. No doubts abotu that.
I made mistakes and aknowledged them, tons of them, we both did. We could unmake those, we are improving. BUt..., we cant "unmake" his affair. It happened.
We were sitting at the doc's office yesterday, waiting for the results for my mammogram. He was there, with me, all I could think of was that the last time he was there for someone was for her for the abortion. All I could remember was that 4 years ago he didnt even show up when I faced another scare. Yesterday's experience made that one FEEL so awful. The comparison of how he was then and now, didnt make him look better now in my eyes, it made him look worse back then. Twisted huh?
I dont know if he will keep on accepting my feelings. I know he still hasnt looked me in the eye and asked for forgiveness. I still dont know if he has made a road map in his head to keep us safe in the future. Somehow I feel it is all a matter of luck and I hate that fact.
I am trying to isolate the past and forgive THAT and not confuse it with the future.I know I am missing something from within that will help me move on. I wish I knew what.
I recognize a lot of the emotions you describe, because I certainly got mired in them for a long time after my H decided to work on the M. And the hardest thing to get over was the feeling that, once he'd chosen to share himself intimately with another woman for 2 years, he'd ruined everything we'd ever had. Yet I don't feel that way any more--I feel as though our love was strong enough to weather even that betrayal. Besides, we would never have learned how to communicate effectively and make deep changes to how we deal with ourselves and each other without this crisis, so it was necessary. But, as with all other parts of this process, you can't skip any parts and rush to the conclusion ... you have to live through the pain. I think you're doing a really good job of riding through that pain and confusion, especially with everything else going on in your life; know that it will resolve.
If you're interested, you might look at the website A Buddhist Library for "materials by Guy Pettitt." He has designed a process of forgiveness which is more thorough and beautifully crafted than anything else I've seen. Perhaps reading through it would help you to recognize what you still need for healing to happen?
I hope your H will also do the work to be able to understand why he made the choices he did, and to forgive himself for them, because that would help you to move forward as well.
wow Cyrena. that was an awesome post. i totally agree about the idea of forgiveness. in the weeks following exposure, i did a lot of self exploration, a lot of it "unconscious" (?) i think. i would go to church, sit there thru the morning mass and cry asking God for guidance. I took comfort knowing He was there. i could give Him everything, let my guard down. it was there that i realized i could forgive. i could move on without my W as well.
my desire to forgive my W does not stem from a "need" to forgive her as a means of enticing her back. and i have not chosen to "not forgive" her bc in my heart of hearts suspect that she realizes the impact of what she has done, at least on a level. it has been really hard to not judge her as u can imagine. i question her sense of course, especially when i find myself thinking about some of the details of their trysts which i try not to do and funny enough she still denies ever happened. suspect the latter stems from her guilt. bc to acknowledge it happened would mean facing up to the reality of it. it is denial of a sorts.
i do not mean to hijack but i have to share this with someone, so sorry. today we were in the car talking about a friend of hers who is moving far away. my W supposedly went over to this woman's house to work on her "CV" at some point 2 months ago after going to the gym, and i have always suspected my W was actually meeting with OM that day bc i was working and both my kids and I could not reach her for hours.
W was telling me how this woman and her husband were having a hard time selling their house before re-locating. so i asked the typical questions like "how big is it," "how many bedrooms," "is it nice?" etc. she couldn't answer with any authority and started to make up answers. i saw right thru it, but i did not let this go on for long bc i recognized right away that she was being forced to lie. she never went to this woman's house. my W obviously knew that and she could suspect i did as well. it is a time like that when i have to catch myself and remember that i have chosen to forgive. i did it today most def. but it is the hardest thing in the world to do at times.
yesterday, we were in the car on the highway, just she and i without our kids who were off from school, driving to look at a car to buy. at one point i look out the window and see "super 8 motel" which i know is where they used to meet the few or several times they did. it was all i could do to keep my self control intact. i did NOT look at her. could not. i started to well up with sadness and some frustration. again i was able to control it and remember my choice to forgive. it is like a rollercoaster.
i hope and feel that she will one day awaken to the realization of what she has wrought. do they ever i ask myself? i WANT her to forgive herself bc in doing so she will be able to move on and perhaps forgive me as well for the role i played in the deterioration of our M.
your words particularly resonate with me Cyrena bc my W has chosen to never see her father the child molester ever again. do not think she has "forgiven" him bc suspect she has comparmentalized off her feelings and thoughts on the matter bc they are too hurtful.
and wow! the Karpman Drama Triangle!! your sentence on how my W who was having the A probably felt like the victim (bc of what i had "done" to her) as well as trying to "rescue" a very messed up OM (said it in prior post where he had been drug abuser, is physically a wreck, drinks, womanizes, has "abusive" wife etc) and would hurl insults at me like "i despise you and have never loved u." she is also fond of saying even now how she has never ever really wanted to make love or have sex with me. it was all one sided bc it was to keep me "pleased." married 15 y and pretty much W says it was like that for most of our M. 5 kids, and many acts of love making later especially when i remember holding her in my arms w/ her crying and holding on to me tightly w/ what appeared to be tenderness.
of all the things she has said to me, that has really hurt me the most. yet i have to persist in my desire to forgive bc this cannot b the woman i married nor is it the woman i want to be with. can she truly feel that way? unfathomable that she would be able to concoct things like that. does it ever end? does she wake up? i have not pressed her on matters of the bedroom at all, limiting myself to very short kisses. ugh. what a mess.
but in the end you are SO right. the process of forgiving is ultimately what enables u to escape from the triangle, both she and I.
i too wish i could fast forward to the end of the movie or at least to the good part. but you have to do the work to get there, u have to cry, u have to smile and u above all have to forgive. the pain is there and will be. it is a matter of learning to accept it and say that the past is past. focus on the present and the future.
if u have not attended retrouvaille, then at least look into it. helpourmarriage.org
Forgiveness is a choice. The 'forgiving personality' doesn't feel right to me. My understanding (and experience) with forgiveness has been that it is counter-productive to forgive too early without delving into what happened, exploring and sharing feelings.
In nearly all situations I am aware of, even with infidelity, there are things that both spouses have done that have been harmful to the relationship.
One of the best books on forgiveness is the one by Robin Casarjian.
