Is your FT aware of the program you went on and the material?
I really think that these professionals should coordinate or you have to manage that coordination... Otherwise there's a risk of working at cross purposes...
I don't think your H needs a book on setting boundaries... Where on earth did the FT get the idea that he needed to read that?
I know she is aware of the program but I doubt she has full knowledge of how it works. That’s a good question. I am at the point where I feel maybe a FT who understands DB/Tough Love/Exposure is in order. While the one I’ve been seeing agrees with these concepts, she doesn’t seem to know about implementation, which is frustrating.
Case in point, having H read a book on boundaries and tough conversations. Does H need to learn these things? Yes. Had I known he was so upset about certain issues: housekeeping, certain kids’ activities that were costly, etc… I would have certainly paid closer attention to what he wanted. He just expected that “I knew” he was against things and now I’m being blasted because “I just did what I wanted and disregarded him.” I’m willing to see my part in that.
However… right now, in H’s mindset, FT should not have gone that direction with him. She should’ve stood up for M more and had him read something like RR or Love Languages, or something! But… maybe she felt that by validating his feelings and underscoring that he has an issue setting boundaries that she was getting him to see this WAS on him too and not just me. ??? That’s my guess.
I really don't like FT's who just run their agenda and don't even tell you where they are trying to go wtih it... It's like throwing people in teh back seat and driving without any communication...
The irony is these people are supposed to be experts at managing relationships and here she is doing this stuff and you aren't fully in the loop on her goals at all... What the heck is that all about?
In my opinion the one of the first things the FT should address is
a. Attack Abuse - establish safe boundaries for both spouses immeidately b. Attack infideility c. Attack Divorce
Once she's run that business through the conflict should at least be on a fair playing field as no one's cheating, no one's divorceing, and no one's abusing anyone... NOW you can deal with problems...
But if your H's talking divorce and looking at apartments this FT is NOT doing her job in my opinion...
You can't treat a marriage if the couple isnt' safe from these things above... And it does not sound like she addressed that..
If she's assigning him books on boundary setting and such then she's gotten ahead of herself..
First thing she should be telling your H is
a. No threatening to leave b. We are NOT leaving the marriage, that is the LAST RESORT once therapy has proven to BOTH of you that it is ineffective... c. No cheating, no prowling, no moving out
etc... Once she's talked to him ONE ON ONE about those items THEN she can address other conflicts...
To my mind those are red alerts above (a, b, and c) and she should be jumping on those HERSELF IMMEDIATLEY
Once she dispells the myths of escape (all kinds, divorce, infidelity, drinking, etc) and put a stop to that nonsense then you can work with the couple effectively
I really don't like FT's who just run their agenda and don't even tell you where they are trying to go wtih it... It's like throwing people in teh back seat and driving without any communication...
The irony is these people are supposed to be experts at managing relationships and here she is doing this stuff and you aren't fully in the loop on her goals at all... What the heck is that all about?
In my opinion the one of the first things the FT should address is
a. Attack Abuse - establish safe boundaries for both spouses immeidately b. Attack infideility c. Attack Divorce
Once she's run that business through the conflict should at least be on a fair playing field as no one's cheating, no one's divorceing, and no one's abusing anyone... NOW you can deal with problems...
But if your H's talking divorce and looking at apartments this FT is NOT doing her job in my opinion...
Well, remember.... he only went the one time and chose not to go back, so I have to give her a little benefit of the doubt here. She and I both thought he would be returning but then he didn't want to.
That's why I had the question about MC. What if he only wants to go back to counseling for IC and not for the M? I guess it counts for something. Believe me, he has some stuff to sort through he has not dealt with, obviously! I almost feel like he needs that before MC will do any good.
(I'm still going through all the other posts.... lots of good stuff!) :-)
Well, I think IC and MC/FT should be done collaboratively...
I can easily see these two therapists working at cross purposes with the Husband and his marriage (as a couple). Sending a person to ONE Therapist for IC and sending that person as a couple with his wife to a different Therapist where NEITHER therapist communicates with the other is an accident waiting to happen.
I don't know if you were reading ElvenCat's thread but he was giong to IC for schiz and his IC was giving him marriage advice... and not even BOTHERING to talk to his wife at all or even discuss his schiz at all... SHe only spoke to him in private and never ONCE contacted his own wife...
How can you even treat someone for an individual problem like depression, or schizophrenia, or anything wtihout at least ONE SESSION with that person's SPOUSE?
Is that QUALIITY treatment to meet the individual on a regular basis and not even have ONE MEETING with that person's wife? How cna you effectivley treat them when you don't address that person's environment, family, etc... They ARE part of his lifestyle and should be spoken to at LEAST for an HOUR lol
I like your list ideas...and for him to have one as well.
Knowing H, he is at the point where he will be fine with the list, BUT, he will want it clear that it's to "work on the R - as a friendship - and not the M." That, to me, is still saying he wants out, but maybe it's just semantics and I shouldn't worry about it if he is willing to do the other things. What I'm trying to avoid here is cake-eating!
The Rosenthal stuff is a lot of things we covered over the last weekend at the retreat. I don't know why H can't sit there and hear that "Spouses lose feelings but can get them back...." but then is so insistent that "it's over." He reads these things, but they don't sink in. In his mind, it doesn't matter what the experts are saying, it only matters what he feels. SO frustrating!
I agree about the MC/IC and hearing both sides being necessary for even just IC. If he goes to the same person I was going to, she will know the entire story, of course. My frustration with him not wanting to go at all is what led me to the New Beginnings weekend. I wish they had a program in place where someone from there was available for counseling. I think I will contact them and see if they have any referrals.
Truly, my FT was fine for just me trying to work through personal stuff but I don't know that she is equipped to handle this crisis. Well, I honestly think she would be if H were committed to the M and we just needed help in hammering out issues. I don't think she is equipped to handle GETTING H committed to the M. That's where I see the biggest problem with most MC, actually. That's why we are all turning to the likes of DB coaches and such. Who knows - maybe it would just be best for me to contact a DB coach, lol.
Edited to add....I don't really think I need one because I've got someone who offers the most practical help one could ask for!
I used a db coash before and I didn't find them much help other than having someone to talk to...
And they had to endorse the MDW approaches specifically, they can't go outside of that...
I think MWD would tell you to ignore his protests of "it's over", but I think its important to not accept him working "on the relationship" and only work "on the marriage"
If you accept his participation with HIS understanding that he can exit the marriage because of how he feels then you are validting his exit I think.. And I don't know if you want to be doing that...
If he says I want to learn how to be your friend after the divorce, lets work on that... you would likekly tell him to get lost... WHcih is what he's saying from my take on it...
You have two choices there :
a. Accept his work hoping it will change his attitude towards the marriage b. Reject his work until he offers it as an effort to repair the marriage spcifically
My concern as I said is that if you accept his effort it may be sending a message to him that you accept his cowardly exit and are just going through the training of how to get along aftr the divorce... It may steer him towards divorce if he takes your acceptance the wrong way...
I suppose you could tell him
a. Learning to work together as a married couple and as a divorced couple isnt' that much different.. we have to do the same things... its just mroe expensive after divorce since we have to pay for two homes instead of one.
And hope the work changes his attitude... I am pretty hard minded about formal commitments and stuff, I dont' much care for wafflers playing word games like he's doing... So my instinct is to say hit him hard and fast that If he's going to walk out that the family does not want his involvement at all in hwo things happen after that... But then you would need support from son and daughter on that...
I think he has an unrealistic image of what divorce is going to be like... and we may have to attack that directly in order to dispell it...
I think he thinks his life is going to be less work and less responsability if he's divorced
My thinking is to get Son and Daughter together and just hit him head on one night :
All three of you sit and say to him OK, this is your choice
a.Work on the marriage and make a 100% commitment to put forth the effort - no exit activity and no exit talk whatsoever b. Leave now and not be a part of this family any further
That's a rough choice, but with all three of you staring him down with a rough exit like that I would like to think he would cave ...
The last sentence you have there hits the nail RIGHT on the head: He thinks divorce is going to be less work, free him of responsibility, and allow him to not deal with things and be stress free. He's wrong, but he just doesn't know it.
And see... I agree with you on the waffling business, which is why I'm being so particular with him on this issue and the semantics. Practically, there probably isn't a lot of difference in us working on the marrage vs working on a friendly relationship. Philosophically, however, it's a big deal to me! Why on earth would I want to work on being friends with you so you can leave me and my kids and me be OK with it?! That's what I tried to hit him hard with on Tues night and he asked for a week to consider. I specifically said: What's best for our kids is to have a happily married mom and dad. I'm not asking for our old M back - in fact, I don't want it back. I'm saying we can have a new M, one that is better and healthy for both of us. That just caused him to go into defense mode of how "he's been devastated and can't recover...." (taking no personal responsibility for why his life is not exactly what he wants, blaming me.) I told him he could not stay here if he did not want to be married to me any longer; that if he knew he just wanted out, he should go. Obviously, he didn't jump to leave or he wouldn't still be here but made the statement if he had to choose that night, he'd leave. Personally, I think he was just trying to get me to back off, but I didn't. I did agree to table the discussion for a week.
SO...I stood my ground on that issue. I just have to back that decision up next week and not allow cake-eating, is what I feel I need to do. I just want to make sure I'm not getting caught up in semantics and pushing him away when he's willing to do the work - just because I'm not hearing exactly what I want to hear.
Conversely, I think it's important to not let him exit quietly and "friendly" just because I let him either - as you said above.
My thinking is to get Son and Daughter together and just hit him head on one night :
All three of you sit and say to him OK, this is your choice
a.Work on the marriage and make a 100% commitment to put forth the effort - no exit activity and no exit talk whatsoever b. Leave now and not be a part of this family any further
That's a rough choice, but with all three of you staring him down with a rough exit like that I would like to think he would cave ...
He probably would. I'm not sure if D and S16 could handle it. I could talk to them. S14 I know would not be able to handle it. He's very concerned about not showing partiality to either of us, and that's OK. As I said - with his Aspergers, I don't expect him to be part of the tough love campaign.
