One last thing for now: Would it be a good idea to email H this list of Dr. Phil's? I could say I found it insightful - that we are both some of these things right now - if we are going to "do the homework" then looking at different perspectives is helpful.
Quick update: Talked to S14 for a bit. It wasn't easy and I wish he could see things better. He is so much like his dad - so analytical - I know he really identifies with his dad. I had to be extremely careful to be diplomatic with him and explain I am not asking that he chose sides. He even made the comment that there is 2 sides to every story...making sure I knew he would consider dad's side as well, I figure. I explained that I didn't want him to take sides but to be on the side "of the family" and for what's right. He's not an emotional kid - he doesn't get the pain and anguish part of all this. He was very uncomfortable about talking about it. I told him I just wanted him to be prepared. Said if H talks to him about this stuff I would hope he would express that he wants his family together, not apart, and that it would upset him if H leaves.
OK there's a lot for me to comment on... I will just wing it since I am supposed to be working... lol
Long term, I don't think its constructive to be talking about your marrige with your kids in secret. Once to prepare them is ok, but long term I think the goal should be to gather together WITH your H there to talk in group.
The risk with you talking to them all privately is that your H can do the same and you don't know what crap he's selling them.
I am not suggesting you fight in front of them, but I hope this scenario of you gonig to tell them ONE thing and him telling them another in secret isn't going to become a regular thing.
I am on side with your approach so far, that's just a warning that I see your H taking this too far... I think that should be cut off pretty soon now that everyone is in the loop - no private chats with the kids about the family...
Pup said this yesterday : 10% of what you throw at them sinks in. So, while your efforts and truth darts and good exampls may appear in vain they aren't... Tiny Tiny steps are made in your favour when you attempt to educate a wayward spouse.
He's not in an affair I don't think... Otherwise I would say its only 1% that sinks in if you are lucky.
I think You need to write down some boundaries and expectations and make them known :
a. If he lives here, he does his homework and makes a sincere effort b. If he leaves, you two will be pursuing divorce - no friendship will follow c. No trolling facebook for alternatives/parachutes - I heard it called "lifeboating" once which I think is the best characterization d. No talking to friends and family about marital problems in secret e. No hiding of cell phones f. No internet activity that risks harming any family member - even what they don't know CAN HURT THEM
etc...
This is a contract of sorts you two would both be accountable for if you choose to allow him to stay
I think It's also important Sunny that you word things as forcefully as possible here...
He doesn't know how to drive a marriage. If you put him behind the wheel this is giong right into a ditch... Don't leave it up to HIM to leave or to stay. You say it like "If you are going to participate in this marriage you are welcome to stay, otherwise lets pack your things and you can go now."
It gives him only two choices
work get out
THAT is I think the best way to handle him.. if you wait for him to make choices and put firm sticks in teh sand he won't... he's going to obfuscate like almost EVERY wayward does... he's going tos ay he's trying, but he's not, he's going to stay there, and then not, etc... He will be all over hte place if you allow it.
Phil McGraw makes a very important part in RR - "You teach people how to treat you. You allow people to treat you badly."
if you throw him lines like
"Are you going to stay?" It gives him teh steering wheel. If you say "You are welcome to stay if you are willing to do the work" then he's forced to cooperate
Wording and intonation is very important.
There are more boundaries you have to set. That list of bad spirits can be a good start :
a. No drudging up the past - wasted money or affairs - both of you get a clean slate b. No score keeping - You both contribute 100% to the home - salary or no salary c. No secret-keeping - Smoke and Mirrors belong on the stage - you aren't David Copperfied so don't waste my time
The first thing your H needs to learn how to do and practice regularly is to express things as a positive
Negative : "You don't make enough money" Positive : "I would enjoy it if the household had more income - how can I help?"
etc
Another point of him staying is FT. You could push for that. Tell him outright that if he's going to stay and explore repairing the damage you BOTH have done that he should be going to FT once a week.
You really are just putting a program for the household together that you BOTH will follow.
It's important that when you express things you get this point in :
I am not asking you to do anything I am not doing.
If he brings up salary cut him off right away.
We put me in this position of being financially dependent on you. If you think I enjoy this you are mistaken. We drove the marriage where it is now. I am a working at home mother of three and you are a working at x father. We both contribute. We both are working to increase income in this household. BOTH of us are doing that... GOT IT?
Whenever he brings up the past :
We have both contributed to the mistakes in this marriage and how it has arrived here. I am willing to do the work to clean up my 50% of this. You get a clean slate and a chance to clean up your 50%.. That is my gift to you. If you don't want that gift you know where the door is - lets pack your things up.
Kick all his bad spirits in the groin when they rear their ugly head...
You are basically rreading him the bad spirits list AND applying it for him when you do this...
If you can record some of your exchanges with him and listen to them after the fact it helps.
Like when he mentions money waste hurts everyone and you counter with affairs hurt everyone...
You could say
WE have brought this marriage where it is now. WE are doing what WE can do rebuild it and strengthen it. BOTH of us made the mess and both of us can clean it up. YOU have a chance to participate in this family to strengthen it or you know where the door is. You want to walk out the door and leave this family to clean up your share of this mess I am happy to help you pack - this household does NOT need any DEAD WEIGHT. Either you are part of the solution or you and your problems can find the door.
I know its tough to have him rant at you and not throw a bullet back but it does escalate the argument.
When anyone in this family gets hurt everyone knows about it and everyone feels it. This is a family and if you hurt one of us you hurt ALL of us.
If you want a practical example :
Are you telling me when some creep makes a commitment to your daughter, cheats on her, and then abaondons her you arne't going to feel hurt? You aren't going to feel violated? You won't feel absolute rage?
Infidelity of ANY kind devastes the ENTIRE HOME. There is NO PLACE for those selfish hurtful games in this house. If you want to hurt people you know where the door is. If you want to contribute as a member of this family then the games and deceit are left at the door.
You can get yoru point across, that's ok, but its important to FINISH UP with a marriage rebuild offer, a clean slate, and hold him 50% accountable for the rebuliding process.
I see what you are saying about the kids/private chats. I KNOW he has had them with the kids...they've told me. You're right though - that needs to stop. The older 2 wanted to know how the weekend went, so I told them and forewarned them that he was going to be asked to leave if he could not commit to the M. They agreed.
I agree with everything you've said and you've definitely given me some good scripts to keep to! I felt I did a good job of conveying those types of things last night. I just have to stick to it. I guess I don't present these things until the week is up? Well, unless he brings it up.
I tried hard last night to not argue with him. It probably still seemed like I did at times because I disagree with his point of view, but it was never heated.
Getting him to move past blaming me for his mental state is key here and it just isn't happening thus far. That's what I'm trying to precipitate.
SO... my plan of action is to say nothing until the week is up unless he brings it up. This, of course, is contingent on him continuing to do the homework as assigned. If he is still on the fence in a week, I follow the above script: he either works on things or gets out. If he works on things and stays, I have my list of non-negotiable boundaries. If he leaves, he is choosing the path of D and it is on him - his decision.
In the meantime... Do I get him RR or send him the list? I don't think that was specifically addressed. Helpful or no?
