She feels attracted to a man who knows he's deserving of her love and affection and won't just give his love away. She doesn't want to give her love to a man who she doesn't respect. Your view of unconditional love might not match hers, see things from her POV and the light bulb turns on.
Yup, as much as I hate it, I saw the opportunity to get my family back, and I was willing to offer my love on her terms. She did give quite a bit back, in terms of her time, attention, affection, and admiration, but she held back a real committment to me, because I didn't make my love dependent on it.
You make an awesome point about her POV. I will try to put myself in her shoes.
She said she doesn't want to try to reconcile until I am no longer angry over what happened. Is this reasonable?
She said she doesn't want to try to reconcile until I am no longer angry over what happened. Is this reasonable?
It is HER feelings, Future, so -- by definition -- they are reasonable.
But I know what you're saying. I think it's REASONABLE, for her to not want to remain married if she believes you are going to be forever angry about what she did, and lord it over her head every step of the way, YES, I think that's reasonable.
What YOU need to offer her is, a COMPETING VISION for the rest of your marriage. One where you honestly (and vulnerably) admit that YES, you are angry now, but that -- with some good MC/FT, preferably with someone who specializes in infidelity, you believe you two can not only get PAST this, but come out of it with a better marriage than ever before. That YOU have changed, and are working hard to become a better Future, and that you see HOPE if the two of you will commit to the PROCESS.
Validate her fears, FU. HEAR them. And own up to how angry you are right now, but then offer her up a hopeful future with Future, if she'll allow the two of you that chance.
But then shut up. I wouldn't "oversell" her on that. I'd tell her all of that exactly ONCE . . . if it were me.
I don't know if it's fear of me being forever angry about it that she has a problem with, at least not right now. She just said she doesn't want this stuff in her life, she doesn't want anger and hostility. She wants to have fun. Right now she doesn't appear to put a whole lot of value on me or our M. Her attitude is like "If I feel good with H, and if we're having a good time, then great, let's hang out. If I have to slog through all this crap, forget it, I'd rather leave it behind and have fun with someone else."
Not exactly a good foundation to build a reconciliation on.
Puppy, I've read much of your story. There seems to be many similarities. After your W's A, you guys did well for a while, but she then "drifted away" again, restless and unhappy. She seemed incapable of understanding why she was so restless, and committing to your M. She wanted to go out with her friends and "have fun". You were suspecting another A, and it got pretty bad again. It got to the point where you finally agreed to end your M. It wasn't until then that she grabbed hold of you for dear life. Reading my story, do you see similarities?
Yes, I do. And it was my "moving way too fast," and some of the subsequent problems that that is STILL causing, that undergirds my words of caution to you and others.
My fears of OM2 ultimately proved unfounded ($60 worth of reverse cellphone lookups later), and some MCing helped, but we still struggle with some of these same issues. My wife also has this immature streak to her, and I don't mean "immature" in some superficial, loves-to-look-at-FB kind of way. I mean a real, genuine "Peter Pan"/never-grew-up thing, where she went from living with her parents to getting married and living with me, and the shallow, self-centered, immature way she looks at relationships, finances, and even some of Life's other general concepts and challenges.
Yeah, I see a lot of similarities, right down to your "pleaser/fixer" personality (just like me!).
Here are ideas I've played with on how to respond:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. From my point of view our reconciliation has failed, and I need to end this marriage. Will you join me at <mediator's> office to get our legal agreement wrapped up? No more anger or resentment, let's just see if we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one."
A while back you sent her some note and it back fired on you. My advice to you back then was NOT to say anything and start dating. Well my fellow flip-flopper, THAT was handled to you on a silver platter. Why are you still trying to talk and reason with her? If you haven't noticed it doesnt work.
I'm a little disappointed nobody has pointed out the famous line:
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I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
I am going to be straight with you. YOU havent tried everything. You havent been able to set her free. You havent really dated yet. Neither you nor your wife know what it is like to be on the other side of the fence you are standing on. The grass is greener. Or as Jimmy Pop put it, "The lap dance is better when the stripper is crying."
I'm getting ahead of myself.
I have read all her dialog you typed out and I can related to your wife. I wish I could explain it better to you than its just something that happens to some people sometime in their life. Or to quote what your wife is saying to you, "I feel trapped and I don't like it," "I just want to be able to go out and have fun," I want to hike.
Those are true, real feelings. They are confusing but at the same time they are exhilarating. My doctor says my hormone levels are normal for a person my age. Personally, I don't know where they came from or where they are going. I say don't try to reason with it or rationalize it because honestly for myself, I can't. I just want to know myself.
I think I can describe it to you. Have you ever had a desire to feel weightless? To just float? Like a bird gliding through the air or how a fish races through water as if there is no resistance? Freedom to express yourself and to learn.
Or maybe your wife is totally different and I did a terrible job trying to help you. Point is, quit spinning your wheels, man. Life is really really short.
You know, these situations ebb and flow over time, and I can't believe I've been on here for a year and half, with over 800 posts, the vast majority of which are on my own thread. There have been times when my sitch was fairly stagnant, and I came by now and again to journal, with no real pressing need for significant advice.
You folks here can tell I'm at a CRUCIAL juncture now, as can I, and you're all out in force trying to help. I just want to say I appreciate it.
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I am going to be straight with you. YOU havent tried everything. You havent been able to set her free. You havent really dated yet. Neither you nor your wife know what it is like to be on the other side of the fence you are standing on.
You are DEAD ON right with this. There was a period around Feb-March of this year where I was ALMOST there, but not quite. Even the dating I did, the women I was with could tell I wasn't quite available. Drove my friends nuts. They would say "Why are you holding back?!" Because deep down I wanted my W and family back.
Quote:
I have read all her dialog you typed out and I can related to your wife. I wish I could explain it better to you than its just something that happens to some people sometime in their life. Or to quote what your wife is saying to you, "I feel trapped and I don't like it," "I just want to be able to go out and have fun," I want to hike.
Those are true, real feelings. They are confusing but at the same time they are exhilarating. My doctor says my hormone levels are normal for a person my age. Personally, I don't know where they came from or where they are going. I say don't try to reason with it or rationalize it because honestly for myself, I can't. I just want to know myself.
I think I can describe it to you. Have you ever had a desire to feel weightless? To just float? Like a bird gliding through the air or how a fish races through water as if there is no resistance? Freedom to express yourself and to learn.
I am trying to understand, and I am trying to show her a path where she can have that and her family, but it seems like the more I try to accommodate her, the farther away she goes. Definitely the whole "pleaser/fixer" thing, as Puppy describes.
Here are ideas I've played with on how to respond:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. From my point of view our reconciliation has failed, and I need to end this marriage. Will you join me at <mediator's> office to get our legal agreement wrapped up? No more anger or resentment, let's just see if we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one."
If she backpedals, and indicates that's not what she wants, I know myself, and I will feel compelled to offer her something. How should I handle this? I could just buy a little time and say "I'm leaving for a week, so obviously nothing is going to happen right now. We'll talk when I get back." Or should I just put up a wall and say "You've been right all along W, it just won't work between us. It's time to finally end this."
Ehhh. Lots of good meat in there, but tactically, it blows.
I really like your opening, but then I don't like it how you "assume the negative," at the point I've highlighted above. And then you've got it where, as you say, she DOESN'T want that, she's going to turn it back on you.
I would prefer something like:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. If that's what you want, this isn't going to work, and we need to make arrangements with a mediator and we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one.
"I'd appreciate a quick answer on what you'd like to do -- no later than Monday. I'm sure neither one of us want to drag this thing out any further than we have to; Life is short."
and I am trying to show her a path where she can have that and her famil
Stop trying to teach her. Drop the rope. She has to find her own path back to you if she is going to find it, and by then you may not be available anymore.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
I agree with TH --- there is nothing more irritating than a man trying to tell a woman how or what to feel. My H is constantly doing that, and I have started telling him that I will feel what I feel, and I don't need him to tell me any differently. It's one of the reasons I have finally decided to end our M of 24.5 years.
I also agree with Puppy on how to respond, by stating your feelings and what your boundaries are. That way, she knows exactly where she stands, and can make her decisions based on that. And, you know what you want and if she can't give it to you (and soon) then I think you know what you have to do.
Life is too short ... take it from me. Don't linger on this too long. She either wants you and the family life or not. Fun can be had within the family group, and fun without guilt. How long does she want to take deciding? I think you should give her your timetable and see where that goes.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Stop trying to teach her. Drop the rope. She has to find her own path back to you if she is going to find it, and by then you may not be available anymore.
Whoa. I am not trying to teach her. I'm showing her that I am willing to walk a path with her. Period. Her decision as to whether she walks it. It's like what Puppy says "Shine a light back to the M". I have never once in this whole sitch told her how to feel.
