I don't get that she cannot regret the path she took to make those positive changes in her. That she couldn't do it on her own. You did.
Okay, I'm not sure what you should do now. MC sounds like a good thing. But, until she can feel bad about ripping your family apart just to make herself feel better, by having an A, I just can't see where your next step should be. It opens up the possibility that she will do this again.
Are the positive changes in her noticeable? What changes is she talking about that makes her not sorry about loving this OM? Seriously, I don't get it.
Just some thoughts.
Hi BeingMe-
I agree 100%, and I have considered asking her that. She can see the positive changes in me, and yet she still clings to this notion that it was her A with OM that was pivotal in changing her life. In my opinion, her A has actually DELAYED her doing her real work.
Like I said in my last post, she is going back to see our MC. We'll see what comes of that.
Absolutely, unless I see real remorse and regret, how can I be sure she won't do it again? If she sees nothing wrong with what she did, what would stop her. These are the things I need to tell her.
Yes, she does have noticeable changes. She is much calmer, much kinder, much more patient. She has a light fun demeanor that was missing during much of our M. She hasn't told me herself, but I know from the brutal intel I saw that she gives OM credit for showing her how to love and be loved. She doesn't get that he had absolutely no shared responsibility with her, that his distance gave him the convenience of picking and choosing how he wanted to include her in his life, that when push came to shove he chose NOT to move here to be with her. In fact, after he told her he wasn't moving here, he tried to push her to move to him, even though it would have meant leaving her kids. I'm sure in her mind she still gives him all sorts of excuses, it was unfair to ask him to uproot his life, blah, blah, blah. I don't think it would do any good for me to point these things out. Why don't her friends do that? All they do is validate and support all her ridiculous decisions. Even our rocky reconciliation attempt, they were all on board with it, after she told them all sorts of vile exaggerated stories about how terrible our M was, how bad I was to live with, etc, etc. They seem to have no backbone whatsoever when it comes to calling her on BS. My friends have been BRUTALLY honest about what they think about my deicisions, and I thank them for it.
I think the next step is to say just that. That you cant move on until she shows true remorse for ripping apart the family. That sounds like a pretty good boundary to me.
Have you both declared your "NUTS"???
Are you referring to the book "Hold onto your NUTS?" I haven't read that one yet. I probably should.
Yes. Great book. Not just for men. Everyone should declare to their partner what their "NUTS" are so there is less confusion on what is "NEGOTIABLE" and what is OFF-LIMITS.
Just be aware that "brutal honesty" does not always equal truth. She certainly didn't 'fess up to the truth about being in an A before she left the house. Somewhat selective in her "brutal honesty" I would say.
She obviously picks her friends who are the type that would go along with whatever she wants. She has a manipulative personality, I would say. I could be wrong, of course. I don't want to put too much of a negative spin here. The changes she has made are awesome, but I doubt it had anything to do with OM. That part is only in her mind, but he doesn't sound like the inspiring type of guy.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Take care.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Just be aware that "brutal honesty" does not always equal truth. She certainly didn't 'fess up to the truth about being in an A before she left the house. Somewhat selective in her "brutal honesty" I would say.
She didn't admit to her A, but she seriously pulled away. I didn't know about the A, but I could tell something was seriously wrong. After she decided OM was "her man", she refused to touch me in any way. So even if she was being externally dishonest with me, her behavior betrayed the truth. Although it sucked for me, I use that experience to note how different she is with me now.
Quote:
She obviously picks her friends who are the type that would go along with whatever she wants. She has a manipulative personality, I would say. I could be wrong, of course. I don't want to put too much of a negative spin here. The changes she has made are awesome, but I doubt it had anything to do with OM. That part is only in her mind, but he doesn't sound like the inspiring type of guy.
Yes, she does have some core manipulative tendancies, and I'll need to learn to manage them if we are to reconcile. My eyes are wide open now. Her friends are wimps. They look up to her like she's the queen of all R knowledge. What a joke.
The changes she made had more to do with our separation, just as mine have. Getting away from each other allowed our destructive cycle to be broken, and healing to begin. Simple as that.
Oh, OM gave her all sorts of validation. He sung her praises in every way, and validated all her reasons why she was so unhappy with me in our M. He joined her in her fantasies about travelling the world in some eternal erotic bliss. Reality quickly reared its head as she turned up the pressure, and he slinked away, giving her lines like "I can't move across the world, but if you ever need anything, I'm here for you." She gave him more rope, coming up with a ridiculous "five year plan" where she'd divorce me and get herself all set up in a nice home with the kids, and he'd work on his business and make money, looking forward to the wonderful future day when they could be together. She travelled to see him three times, and after each time they "broke up", only to have her throw herself at him again and keep it going toward a slow inevitable death. He never travelled here to see her. Doesn't sound very inspiring to me either.
Another update on my deteriorating situation. Is it deteriorating? Who knows?
W wanted to talk this morning. She was upbeat and in a good mood, so there was no feeling of doom and gloom.
She said she spoke with OM yesterday. She said when she ended things months ago she just stopped communicating with him, and didn't really decisively end it, which is why she didn't defriend him on FB. She said it would have seemed out of the blue and hostile for her to do it without having some sort of closure with him. She said he originally wanted to still be friends, but at the time she told him she didn't know if that was possible. This was all months ago before her and I reconnected. She said she told him yesterday she couldn't be friends with him. She said she would defriend him on FB, and I was free to look over her board to verify that she hadn't been communicating with him on there.
I told her from my point of view she seemed a lot more concerned with appearing hostile to him than doing damage to any chance we had. I said we've got a mountain to climb, and she didn't even want to get the big boulders out of the way. She got annoyed and said "H, it WAS a big boulder, now it's a tiny pebble." She admitted she was naive to not consider what it would mean to me to see him on FB, and that my reaction was understandable. I said "Maybe that's because you know how you feel about it, but I don't." She agreed, looked at me, and said "I know it's totally OVER."
She looked tired and exasperated. She said "H, I just want to have fun. So much of our time is spent dealing with all this crap. That first night we went out dancing, that was FUN, without anything else getting in the way, but ever since, it seems like we can't do anything without this coming in somewhere." I agreed with her and said I want to have fun too. I said I just wanted to get this stuff dealt with and off the table.
She said "H, I feel trapped and I don't like it. I'm going to talk it over with <MC> and see if I can figure out why, but in the mean time I don't want to feel like I'm doing something bad if I flirt with someone or spend some time with someone. I'm not looking to have sex with anyone, or get into anything serious, but I just want to be able to go out and have fun." I said "I've been feeling the same way, I'm tired of dealing with all this, and I wasn't sure what I thought about dating someone else." She said "How about make a deal that we date each other, and maybe other people too, as long as it's just fun and casual, and we each let the other know if anything starts turning serious with someone else?" I took a long pause, then said "After everything we've been through, I'm not entirely sure we can handle that." She is leaving today with the kids and going to her brother's place for a week, and she said "I'm going to be gone for a week. Think about it. Do what you want, go out, have fun, date if you want." I laughed and said "Oh, it's ok if I don't just sit here in the house and be miserable? Thanks!"
I said "The problem is, given our schedules, it is way easier to date other people than date each other." She nodded. I continued "It's a fundamental disadvantage we have with each other. The time we spend together with the kids doesn't seem to mean as much to you as it does to me, so I've been far more interested in getting time together with just us." She said "The time we have with the kids is great, but it's not enough. If we're in love with each other, it'll be even better. We'll each need to make sure we put in the effort to see each other, and arrange for child care." She smiled and said "Just so you know, when I asked you to come bowling with us Saturday, it wasn't just for the kids, I wanted to see you too."
She looked unsure, and said "Can we put all this stuff away for a while?" I said "Sure. At this point, that sounds great."
Gucci, if you're out there, you were exactly right about the dynamics at play in my sitch. All this crap has been destroying her attraction to me, and I don't even blame her. It sucks. It's been killing my attraction to her too! Unfortunately, for good or bad, I knew there was no way I could re-enter my R with her without addressing what happened. Talk about a giant elephant in the room. Funny thing is, she started the R talks way more than I did! Having it hang out there was causing her anxiety, and she tried to address it in a manner that minimized its importance. I needed to call her on that crap and tell her what it meant to me, otherwise it would have festered inside me and came out in all sorts of ugly ways. Maybe she didn't give me quite what I wanted, but I at least feel it's been exposed and addressed. Now the question is whether there's enough left between us to save.
I don't think all is lost. I now need to really adopt the gucci and robx attitude, and take her up on her offer. Get mysterious, be busy, date other women, show her I'm not waiting around for her. Clearly that was what attracted her back before. I know she doesn't want to go through the pain of divorce, and lose the security our M offers her. I know she doesn't want another woman in the kids' lives. I know we can have a ton of fun together. I know there is an undeniable bond between us that will cause her great pain to sever.
Question. When should I play the divorce card? Now? I considered telling her today that if we are going to date other people, then it's silly to still be married, and we need to proceed with the divorce.
She said she spoke with OM yesterday. She said when she ended things months ago she just stopped communicating with him, and didn't really decisively end it, which is why she didn't defriend him on FB. She said it would have seemed out of the blue and hostile for her to do it without having some sort of closure with him. She said he originally wanted to still be friends, but at the time she told him she didn't know if that was possible. This was all months ago before her and I reconnected. She said she told him yesterday she couldn't be friends with him. She said she would defriend him on FB, and I was free to look over her board to verify that she hadn't been communicating with him on there.
