I am glad, Future, that your W is taking the time and space to work on herself, and that you are giving it to her. She should be afraid, but if she can face those demons and beat them, what courage it will take to do have done so, and how proud you would be of her. My H never wanted to talk about what happened. He is an emotional coward in my eyes. Always hiding away from truths, pain, and not facing it and seeing that there is, in the end, nothing to fear but himself.
That is what your W has to fear ... herself. Her flawed self. The idea of a self that can do foolish things, can do great damage to others, while justifying it as being the "right thing to do" or "it felt good and made me happy". None of us are perfect (we all have to face our awful parts from time to time and either justify or rectify), but when certain things have been done such as having an A, then it should be put right before we can move on, IMHO.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Thanks BeingMe. Our weekend was another tumultuous one. I can see what folks mean when they say the real hard work begins once you decide to try to reconcile.
We've been pulling back from each other more and more, and I was seriously considering if I would be best served by walking away and moving on again. My W had the kids over the weekend, and she did call me Saturday and ask me to going bowling with them all that afternoon. We had a great time, and I was sad to see them go. W was acting strange though, and even asked right in front of the kids "So H, you have a big date tonight?" I had no idea where that was coming from. The kids were right there though, so I ignored it.
Sunday morning I was increasingly concerned that her distance and that bizzare question might possibly indicate that she has been in contact with OM. I am reluctant to snoop, but I did look at her FB page. I am not FB friends with her, but she does not hide her friend list, and sure enough, OM was still on it. Hit me hard, and I decided right then that we needed to stop this crap and either be honest with each other or get divorced. I drove to her house and told her we needed to talk. She could see in my face I was serious. She said she was already late picking up our son, so she only had a minute. I looked right in the eye and asked her straight out.
Me: "Are you in contact with him?" W: (very convincingly) "No! Not at all. You can check my phone, my email, anything you want. I haven't been in contact with him. My gmail account got hacked, remember I told you, and I sent a message to everyone in my address book about it, that's it, but he didn't reply." Me: "He's still on your FB friend list." W: "We didn't de-friend each other." Me: "Why not?" W: "Because it seemed like a hostile thing to do, and I didn't see a need to be hostile." Me: (speechless) W: "There was no need. I don't use FB for anything important. He hasn't posted on my page, and I haven't posted on his." Me: "This isn't working for me." W: "Are you making some sort of final decision?" Me: "I think we're both confused as to where we are. What was up with that question yesterday about whether I had a date? Right in front of the kids too." W: "I asked you that in front of the kids?" Me: (nodding) "Yeah, you did." W: "I did?" Me: "Yeah, you did." W: "I don't really remember that, but ok. Are you at a point where you want to stop this? Are we going to go back to just co-parenting, no friendship, nothing else?" Me: "No, I'm not at that point yet." W: "I am really late, I do need to go." Me: "Ok, we'll talk later. I apologize for coming over unannounced."
She was pretty agitated, and took the opportunity to jab at me. She said "You did it once before, and I told you to never do it again, but apology accepted."
The vibe between us was VERY bad. We said a quick goodbye and both drove away.
I felt very bad the rest of the day, and any path to reconciliation appeared to be gone. Last night I was fighting the urge to call her or text her to continue our talk. I need some sort of resolution to this, and even if I was going to throw in the towel and walk away, I owed it to her to at least tell her I was doing that.
She beat me to it though. Around 9pm she called me. I could hear in her voice she wanted to talk, really talk. She said she was sad, said she felt like we were slipping away from each other, and right back to where we had been before. She said she doesn't want that, but she can't see any way for us to get past what she did. She said she can't give me what I need. She said I have every right to be angry, and to need what I need, but she just can't give it to me. I asked her what she thought I needed. She said "You feel I betrayed you, and I did. I know I hurt you. You need me to say it was wrong, and a mistake, but I can't. You need me to hate him with you, and I can't do that. What happened changed me, for the better, and I can't regret that. I can't regret loving him. I understand if that makes it impossible for you to be with me." She wasn't saying all this with finality though. Thinking back to Puppy's response to my post a couple months back, I could hear in her voice that she was searching for hope from me.
I said "Those are your feelings, and you can't deny them. If there's any hope for us though, you need to keep them inside you, out of view, at least for a while. You can't keep external reminders out here where I can see them." She said "I understand." I said "Like we talked about before, maybe someday there will be a safe place for us to put it, but not now, probably not for years." Then I said "I know I failed you in a way that made you long for what that gave you, so I can't just point the finger at you, I have to point at myself too. I know that."
We talked more about what I needed, how she treated me during our last months living together. She owned and apologized for how poorly she treated me. We talked about our past, how we've changed, what we like about each other, how unhappy we were before. Unlike what Puppy watches for in these situations, her unhappiness in our M was not "retroactive" after she met OM. She was terribly unhappy for years beforehand. I knew it, but I was incapable of truly understanding why, and she was incapable of conveying it to me. I was unhappy too, for my own reasons, but because of my demons, I didn't think I had any need to express it, or even the right to do so. I was just supposed to grin and bear it.
We concluded on a very positive note, and said we'd continue the talk the next day.
These are the R talks that need to happen for my M to have any hope. We're no where near through it yet, and I think it's going to get worse yet before it really gets better.
You need me to say it was wrong, and a mistake, but I can't. You need me to hate him with you, and I can't do that.
I think most of us BSs can live with the second half of that, understanding that it's going to take a long, long time for this to happen, if it is ever going to happen.
It's the FIRST half, however, that -- although it's very typical to adultery (Harley talks about this lack of remorse in his work) -- is nevertheless a dealbreaker for many.
Tough stuff, Future. I don't quite know what to tell you.
She said she doesn't want that, but she can't see any way for us to get past what she did.
Defriending the OM and complete transparency would be a good start.
Quote:
W: "Because it seemed like a hostile thing to do, and I didn't see a need to be hostile."
You know what is hostile to you, your M and your family? Her keeping ties with OM. Do not let her turn this on you. This has put your M on the rocks.
Right now it sounds not so good for you two, and she needs to step up to put things right. Tell her.
I know what you are going though all too well, and I wonder if this half-hearted reconcillation attempt that my STBXW is making is just about keeping me from moving on until she can find somebody else or something.
Last edited by TimeHeals; 07/26/1006:09 PM.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
Future, I agree with Puppy that the first part would be tough to accept. Perhaps she was saying that she doesn't think it was a mistake because it "changed" her in ways she needed to grow in her life. Maybe she's not necessarily saying that the A wasn't wrong, just how it changed her? Right now these are her feelings, her emotions. She's still processing that time in her past too just as you are. That time means completely different things for you both right now.
From my observation it seems like you both pretty much agree and get along with every other issue in your sitch. It all seems to come back to the A. If you don't mind me making a suggestion, I think the two of you discussing the A on your own is not working right now. Perhaps you both could go to a MC appointment to discuss it. This might be getting to the point where only professional help might help the two of you deal with this and put it behind you both. It seems to me that when you both discuss the A things seems to fall apart. With the other positive things that you both have been able to work on it seems like this might be the final issue to resolve.
Maybe ask her if she would be willing to only discuss this issue in counseling at this time. Find the right counselor and let them help you guys get through this. You seem so close if not for this one issue. I understand it's a big issue but it seems like to only major thing keeping the two of you from completely reconciling.
I agree that she should remove OM from her FB. If she doens't call, text or email him then why not remove him from FB? How would that be any worse for this guy than her not communicating with him? I don't get that one.
Future, you guys seem so close. Don't give up now man. Good luck!
M 38 WAW 36 Together 19 years Married 12 years Bomb/Separated Oct. 09 I love my wife Sitch
I think most of us BSs can live with the second half of that, understanding that it's going to take a long, long time for this to happen, if it is ever going to happen.
It's the FIRST half, however, that -- although it's very typical to adultery (Harley talks about this lack of remorse in his work) -- is nevertheless a dealbreaker for many.
Tough stuff, Future. I don't quite know what to tell you.
Puppy
Yes, it is. Thanks. Truthfully, I worry more about what it means to our future, rather than the past. If in some way she can convince me she's totally re-committed to our M, and is working on having a great R, the past will fade into history. I don't have any desire or need to hold onto past hurt, for its own sake.
I don't get that she cannot regret the path she took to make those positive changes in her. That she couldn't do it on her own. You did.
Okay, I'm not sure what you should do now. MC sounds like a good thing. But, until she can feel bad about ripping your family apart just to make herself feel better, by having an A, I just can't see where your next step should be. It opens up the possibility that she will do this again.
Are the positive changes in her noticeable? What changes is she talking about that makes her not sorry about loving this OM? Seriously, I don't get it.
Just some thoughts.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
I think the next step is to say just that. That you cant move on until she shows true remorse for ripping apart the family. That sounds like a pretty good boundary to me.
Defriending the OM and complete transparency would be a good start.
Yes, she will have to defriend OM. That's a no brainer. Is my W in denial that having OM on her friend list wasn't a detriment to our possible reconciliation? Wow!
Quote:
You know what is hostile to you, your M and your family? Her keeping ties with OM. Do not let her turn this on you. This has put your M on the rocks.
Exactly. To say our M is on the rocks is an understatement!
Quote:
Right now it sounds not so good for you two, and she needs to step up to put things right. Tell her.
I know what you are going though all too well, and I wonder if this half-hearted reconcillation attempt that my STBXW is making is just about keeping me from moving on until she can find somebody else or something.
I don't think my W is keeping me around while she looks for something else. Now that OM is (presumably) out of the picture, and she's off the A drug, she's feeling the effects of her decisions (shared time with kids, missing me, no money, no life, etc). She's being honest. Sunday she said "residual feelings" for OM are in the way of her committing to our reconciliation. Can't fault her for her honesty, but I also don't need to hang around and embrace her half hearted attempts at fixing things.
I'm still somewhat optimistic, but it's going to be a long road.
Future, I agree with Puppy that the first part would be tough to accept. Perhaps she was saying that she doesn't think it was a mistake because it "changed" her in ways she needed to grow in her life. Maybe she's not necessarily saying that the A wasn't wrong, just how it changed her? Right now these are her feelings, her emotions. She's still processing that time in her past too just as you are. That time means completely different things for you both right now.
From my observation it seems like you both pretty much agree and get along with every other issue in your sitch. It all seems to come back to the A. If you don't mind me making a suggestion, I think the two of you discussing the A on your own is not working right now. Perhaps you both could go to a MC appointment to discuss it. This might be getting to the point where only professional help might help the two of you deal with this and put it behind you both. It seems to me that when you both discuss the A things seems to fall apart. With the other positive things that you both have been able to work on it seems like this might be the final issue to resolve.
Maybe ask her if she would be willing to only discuss this issue in counseling at this time. Find the right counselor and let them help you guys get through this. You seem so close if not for this one issue. I understand it's a big issue but it seems like to only major thing keeping the two of you from completely reconciling.
I agree that she should remove OM from her FB. If she doens't call, text or email him then why not remove him from FB? How would that be any worse for this guy than her not communicating with him? I don't get that one.
Future, you guys seem so close. Don't give up now man. Good luck!
Yes, the A is the gigantic blue whale that sits between us. I am trying to show her a path back, but she still refuses to take it. She has this brutal emotional honesty, and she refuses to embrace our M while she knows she still has feelings for OM.
She is going back to see our MC, alone at first. We'll see what comes of that. Our MC isn't militantly pro-marriage, but she doesn't endorse what my W did, on the contrary, she was pretty harsh about it, but she knows what we here on the DB site know, fighting a wayward spouse only makes them run away faster. Now that my W is coming out of the fog, perhaps talking to our MC will help now.
There is a lot of good between my W and me. I'm not giving up yet, but as I said before, I may need to let her go again to see if she really wants to save our M.
