Without reading most of the rest of your thread, I think you handled that surprisingly well. I don't think most people would have been able to do what you did as well as you did it. I'm no expert on the DB side of things, and maybe someone will explain why what you did was a mistake, but it sounds like it worked pretty well to me. For one thing, if you're ever going to have a future together, she should expect the truth from you. She should know that you won't take joy in hurting her with unpleasant truths, but that you will speak them honestly.
No evisceration from me. I thought you actually handled it very well. I think "no R talks!" is one of those DBing things (like "180") that just gets casually tossed around so much, that it gets misunderstood and taken TOO far. It's not that you can't EVER have ANY -- I mean, by definition, you HAVE to, at some point, talk about the relationship. It's just that the betrayed spouse is not to pursue with a bunch of them, forever wanting to "talk it out," that's all.
I really loved how you handled the whole first part. This was the only part that made me cringe, just a smidge:
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I said "I know, that was a tough conversation. We have a lot to sit on for a while." She said "Yeah." I hesitated, then said "W, I'm not sure what I need." She said "I know, you will though. You'll figure it out."
I would have preferred that you not INITIATE that. Let HER come back to YOU again, at which point you can take the first-person-plural out of it, and say something like "I'm not sure how I feel about things right now."
But overall, not bad at all, and I really liked how you drew a mini-boundary about the kiss on the cheek, and yet didn't go all pouty on her when she opted for "nothing." LOL
What I want to tell her is "W, when you said you can't give me what I need, what I hear is that it was worth it. It was worth losing me, our marriage, and half the kids' childhood. Was it worth that?" If she avoids a direct answer, I'd want to say "I'm worried the only way you'll ever know the real answer to that question is for me to force you to live it. Is that what I have to do?"
Am I nuts? Am I asking too much? I can't see myself being able to live in our marriage with her holding onto the "rightness" of what she did.
No evisceration from me either. You handled the R talk brilliantly ... pity about daughter pounding on the door because you should've asked her the above while you were in a R talk. It may be difficult to bring up now, but keep it in mind. It gives you some measure of control, re "Is that what I have to do?", while still trying to gauge her mindset. I think this is what all of us want to know from our WAS's ... was it worth the pain and agony the A caused, not just to the LBS, but to the children too. My D17 still doesn't like it if we have even a slight disagreement. I don't know what she's going to say when we tell her and the other children that the M is over, bar the legalities. My H did say it wasn't worth it, but as you said "talk is cheap", and in his case, there was no action to back it up, and I also got sick of the cheek kissing.
Keep it up ... you're doing exactly what I should've done 5 years ago.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
W: "Is a hug ok?" (she pulls in to hug me, and kiss me on the cheek) Me: (I pull my head away) "Hugs are absolutely ok, but I'm done with the cheek kissing. It's all or nothing." W: "I guess I'll opt for nothing for a while." Me: (smiling) "Ok." W: (we had a long hug, then she started walking away) Me: "Have fun." (she was going to a car show) W: "Thanks."
. . .
About an hour later, she called back and said "Can I change my mind?" I said "Sure." She said "What time?" She came over and we had a great time with the kids for a while. No more R talk.
Here's going to be your challenge, Future, and again, I'm saying YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG -- handled it beautifully, in fact. But she is now likely going to see the above as her having succesfully "spun up" the Future "plates" on her little sticks for awhile longer. I guaran-damn-tee you, she came away from this with the following main thought:
"Future's not done with me yet. I still have a little while to decide if this is worth it or not."
She definitely thinks she has the reins to this buggy. But you did set a boundary when your reserved the right to not be cheek kissed. (Gosh! I hate cheek kissing .... it's like being kissed by your dad or something. Blegh! So passionless! I don't need a French kiss every time my significant other leaves the room, but dammit, how about a decent peck on the lips.)
Rant over.
I do agree with Puppy that she seems to think that she has time to decide on reconciliation and all that that entails, or cutting things off. The pendulum swings. This is sounding like the beginning when you guys were being 'friends' and y'all had family time, etc. I am glad you have a separate life now, to balance this out.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
W: "I don't think I'm going to be able to give you what you need." Me: (without batting an eye) "Then let's get divorced." W: "No, wait. I mean, you need something from me, and, I don't think I can give it to you. I've realized lately what you're waiting for from me. That's why I pulled back. I can't give that to you."
I thought she told you she pulled back because she needed to find a hobby of her own????
Also, OBSERVE her mindset. IMPORTANT.. She is telling you that she KNOWS you WANT something from her. This means that she doesn't veiw you as letting go. She feels PRESSURE.. When someone says I know you "WANT" something from me, it means they sense that you are the one pursuing or wanting something. You have to KNOW how to reaad these things...
Future, As long as you keep coming across to her like you are a poor poor me victim, she won't be able to feel what she needs to feel for you. Women don't normally fall for a man who they pity and feel sorry for. Every time you tell her how "hurt" you are or were hurt, is just taking you further from reconciling. You NEED to show her you are not only past the hurt, but past giving her a chance and time to decide whatever it is she wants to decide.
Also, you asked her over to watch a movie AFTER she had told you she was going to say no to your invitations. Your self esteem is at issue here. Why is your self esteem so low that you can't let this woman go? Don't you see that you are coming across as weak? It is NOT attractive to a woman for you tell her how "hurt" you are. I don't care if you feel like it felt good to get it off of your chest or not. She needs to see that not only are you over the hurt, but that you are over her and that she has gone too far. THAT is when you have your chance to see her remorse at it's best.
Mmm, Gucci Loafer does have a point, but when in a R talk one has to be honest, unless you just don't say anything. The R chat was initiated by your W, and it seems things were heading in the direction of reconciliation. So, one has to clear the air of some stuff.
She knows what you want ... perhaps it's time to go semi-dark again??? Give her the space and time to miss you. She does know that you have another life, single friends, that include women. I don't think you come across as a victim anymore. Perhaps there was a time, but not anymore.
I get the feeling/impression, and I may be wrong, that your W is finding it difficult to let you go (she obviously still has strong feelings for you), but she wants to be right about what she did and is having a hard time reconciling these two issues. Maybe, if she thinks she was wrong, then she won't be able to trust her own emotions, and that may be very important to her. That she trust herself, that is.
Just some stuff to think about.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
I guaran-damn-tee you, she came away from this with the following main thought:
"Future's not done with me yet. I still have a little while to decide if this is worth it or not."
I know. I agree. The problem is, she's a master at being so nice, so supportive, so respectful (now), that she gives me no current excuse for walking away. That boundary about the cheek kissing was the beginning of me taking the stance of "No matter how nice you are, I'm not settling for less than what I want."
I really loved how you handled the whole first part. This was the only part that made me cringe, just a smidge:
Quote:
I said "I know, that was a tough conversation. We have a lot to sit on for a while." She said "Yeah." I hesitated, then said "W, I'm not sure what I need." She said "I know, you will though. You'll figure it out."
I would have preferred that you not INITIATE that. Let HER come back to YOU again, at which point you can take the first-person-plural out of it, and say something like "I'm not sure how I feel about things right now."
But overall, not bad at all, and I really liked how you drew a mini-boundary about the kiss on the cheek, and yet didn't go all pouty on her when she opted for "nothing." LOL
Yeah, I realized after the fact that was a mistake. She was hesitating and lingering on the phone, so I felt like I should acknowledge our previous conversation.
I thought she told you she pulled back because she needed to find a hobby of her own????
I omitted a small comment she made during our conversation. She said
W: "No, wait. I mean, you need something from me, and, I don't think I can give it to you. I've realized lately what you're waiting for from me. That's why I pulled back, I mean, along with that thing about finding something for myself."
So now she's just minimizing and blowing that off, although she does need to GAL, as part of her own process.
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Also, OBSERVE her mindset. IMPORTANT.. She is telling you that she KNOWS you WANT something from her. This means that she doesn't veiw you as letting go. She feels PRESSURE.. When someone says I know you "WANT" something from me, it means they sense that you are the one pursuing or wanting something. You have to KNOW how to reaad these things...
Future, As long as you keep coming across to her like you are a poor poor me victim, she won't be able to feel what she needs to feel for you. Women don't normally fall for a man who they pity and feel sorry for. Every time you tell her how "hurt" you are or were hurt, is just taking you further from reconciling. You NEED to show her you are not only past the hurt, but past giving her a chance and time to decide whatever it is she wants to decide.
I don't necessarily see "letting her go" and "wanting something from her" as mutually exclusive. If we are to reconcile, I do want something from her, but I think I've made it clear to her she's free to go any time, and I'll be just fine. I don't think I'm coming off as a poor me victim, but rather someone who was wronged and is after a "reckoning" before we can move forward. She's the one who pursued me, she's the one who said she doesn't want a divorce. She's asked me over and over "What do you need from me?" I pretty much had convinced her that I was totally over everything. She liked that, no doubt, but it was resulting in her trying to "normalize" her A. During our date she playfully asked me if I had fun dating other women. I dodged it by saying "Now why do you want to know that?" She replied "If you want to know the details of my dating, you have to tell yours too." I said nothing in response, and I didn't show much reaction, but I knew what she was doing. She's trying to equate my dating with what she did, and it's BS. She has several times now casually referred to her extra-martial activity as "dating". I felt like it was a kind of test. If I had allowed her to equate the two, out of some sort of effort to smooth things over (i.e. nice guy), I would have failed the test.
You are right gucci, she does want to see from me that I've totally gotten over everything, so that she doesn't feel guilty. She wants a free pass for what she did.
I really have no intention on continually harping on this stuff. I just had to get it off my chest. No way I could continue forward with her holding it in any more.
You are effectively saying no marriage can be reconciled after an A unless the betrayed partner shows the wayward partner they're fine with everything. That sounds to me like lack of self respect.
I do agree that showing them you've moved on and are no longer interested in reconciliation drives their interest and "feelings" up, but that's different from showing that you're fine with what they did.
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Also, you asked her over to watch a movie AFTER she had told you she was going to say no to your invitations. Your self esteem is at issue here. Why is your self esteem so low that you can't let this woman go? Don't you see that you are coming across as weak? It is NOT attractive to a woman for you tell her how "hurt" you are. I don't care if you feel like it felt good to get it off of your chest or not. She needs to see that not only are you over the hurt, but that you are over her and that she has gone too far. THAT is when you have your chance to see her remorse at it's best.
I didn't include everything from the day. She had already been in and out of the house a couple times picking up the kids, and had already done her hiking thing with our oldest daughter. The movie was one of her favorites and was sitting on the counter in the kitchen. Our son showed it to her and asked if she would watch it with us that night. I said that would be ok, and she said "Sure! Absolutely!" I didn't exactly put myself out there with an invitation for her to decline.
And I did let her go. She asked for me back. As Puppy and BeingMe have said, eventually we do need to talk about our R, and in particular, about what she did. I really don't want to dwell on it, I'd rather have fun with her, but I can't let her just normalize it away either.
I probably should be playing harder to get. I was "gone" for six months, including the holidays. I was hoping that was enough.
