Your ANSWER is to validate HER. You are trying to validate everything she does and says EXCEPT THE ONE AND MOST IMPORTANT THING... That is that she WANTS OUT..
Every time she says she is done and wants out, you always tell her that isn't what you want. That is NOT validating her and what she wants.
If she wants out and you say you love her then you should love her enough to allow her to leave and allow her to divorce you.
There is only ONE way to validate her that works in these situations....
It goes like this... "WS, I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I NOW realize that you really don't want this marriage or me anymore. I realize that what I have done in the past has destroyed any chance of you ever loving me again. I now realize that I have been trying to keep you and get you to love me back with making some changes that should have been made a long time ago. I now realize that no matter how much I try and no matter how much I wanted this to work that your mind is made up and your feelings are not going to change. I now AGREE that it is too late and that we can not make this work. I will no longer make an effort to try to save this marriage. We need to decide how we are going to separate our things such as the house, the money, etc... I think it would be best if you moved out. Your dad should have your place ready shortly and I think it would be best if you moved there while we take care of the divorce process. Don't worry about me and my parents and the house. I will handle it. I am sorry that I haven't been paying attention to how badly you wanted out, but after this weekend it really hit me that it isn't going to work and that you are RIGHT."
And THEN you start going out and doing things like you started to yesterday.. Acting mysterious BEFORE telling and showing her you FINALLY get it is a waste of time. It will be more productive for you AFTER you give her the I am letting go for good speech. It is YOUR letting go that could turn her around. IT isn't going to turn around ever, if you don't let go. NEVER. It will NEVER turn around UNTIL you let go and agree with her. If you agree with her stance ten and only then do you have a chance.
Go and read the thread started my MYLU. Observe how long she acted bitchy to her husbend UNTIL HE AGREED that it wasnt' going to work. And NOW look what is happening. A total 180. All because he decided to agree with her that it was NOT going to work. Analyze that thread. Now she is willing to do anything to make it work. Now she is awake. Not before he let go,but AFTER he let go and gave her what she kept telling hims she wanted.
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When I asked him in the afternoon if we were still on, he said yes, but not very enthusiastically, and that hurt. I lost it, and refused to go for dinner, to have sex with him, etc. I picked up a book & when a couple hrs later he tried cajoling me to go for dinner, I still refused. I can be very stubborn. For the 1st time, instead of trying to pull me out of my mood, he went downstairs & we didn’t speak for the rest of the night, didn’t eat either. He went to sleep on the couch (also a 1st). June 6, in the AM, we didn’t speak, till finally he asked me why I wasn’t speaking to him. I’m a drama queen (& an idiot apparently) and told him it was b/c he’d effectively ended our M. He ended up leaving for 5 hrs. [b]While he was gone, I packed up some clothes and wrote him a goodbye letter, put my wedding rings in it and phoned him to say bye. He told me not to leave & came back. He read the letter, but it was clear from it that I didn’t want to leave. He came to talk to me & said he’d been doing a lot of thinking & had come to the conclusion it wasn’t going to work betw us.
All of a sudden it hit home, I’d been pushing him away, questioning him & testing him & now I’d finally gotten what I didn’t want, but probably deserved. I became hysterical, asked him “do you not love me anymore?”.
I wanted to share with you all what our conversation was about yesterday.
After I brought up the whole damaging my personal property and calling her ignorant it was all down hill from there and the conversation went like this...
W - "You're calling me ignorant? I made sure I did not put anything on top of your stuff and as for the dress I paid for it and I will do with it as I should, it means nothing anyway. I was going to wear it for Halloween this year and get some use out of it"
Me - not sure how to respond, I stand there with a intrigued look on my face.
W continued - "Yes traditionally the dress is preserved but it's not like we had a traditional wedding anyway and I can pass down a white dress to my daughter."
Me - "We both agreed to have a non-traditional wedding"
W - "Yes we did, I know caused I planned the whole thing, remember when you said 'just make the plans and I will show up?' do you remember that? So it was me who planned the whole thing"
Me - "Yes, you are right, you did do the majority of the planning and I did say that. My head was not in the right place at that time"
W - "Well I believed you when you said it and all these changes you made and words you speak mean nothing to me they are all a lie"
W went on to bring up specific events that occurred throughout 10 years where I had overreacted, made her feel insecure about her self and lower her self esteem or hurt her. W said she always thought I would change but then realized it will always be the same so she is done.
W - "You have killed me inside, you have ruined me to the point where I can never believe or trust anyone ever again. Because of you I will never feel like I am significant to anyone."
I went on to contradict what W had said about always being a terrible person and foolishly trying to remind her of the countless times I expressed how beautiful I thought she was.
I then went on to question W's logic.
Me - "You say that 10 years has been nothing but bad but yet we found enough love in one another to get married"
W - "Because stupid me thought you would change after we got married"
Me - "We were 4 months into our marriage when you told me you did not love me anymore, a day after you just got done telling me you loved me so much. I realized that I had some issues that I had to address and I did, change is what I did."
W - "Too late, I will never NEVER be able to forgive you or forget the things you done or said and I will NEVER be happy with you"
W gave more instances of things that occurred in the past, some I had forgot about and others I don't remember ever happening.
W and I then got into a discussion about how things that had happened in the past that I could not let go of that had drove me to be the person I was before our sitch began.
To sum it all up W is bitter and hurt from all that I had said and done in the past and has A LOT of resentment toward me. I admit my faults and never deny anything from the past whether I remembering it happening or not. Because of this W believes everything happens in a cycle and she cannot rust that I will never revert back to the person I was therefore she could never be happy with me. Though I had spent the past 6 months literally changing her I was from the inside and out W does not see a bit of change and said she never will.
Do I want our marriage to work, Yes. DO I think it is going to work, No. I don't want to push my W out the door nor do I want her to feel as if I do not want out marriage to work.
I just MYLU's sitch. The dynamics surrounding the sitch are not the same that surround mine.
I had said to W last week that I am not looking for a roommate and that she is my W. W said just yesterday "you're right, we are roommates and that is all it ever will be until I leave." It has been 6 months since the last time me W and I had any sexual or intimate contact outside of holding hands 4 months ago. I receive absolutely no affection.
Last edited by OfficerInNeed; 06/30/1006:10 PM.
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
That entire conversation had not one bit of validation.
While the particulars of each situation might differ a bit the bottom line is MOST WAS are all the same. They are angry, resentful and firmly planted in past hurts and transgressions.
Each time your W came at you with something you tried to point out what YOU wanted to your W. Why not just say "ok, W, I think you are right, this won't work". Agree with her. When you agree with somebody what can they argue about? If she comes back at you with something else simply say "sorry you feel that way".
When you went to your friends house the other day your W called you. See what happens when you are not around? And that was ONE night. Not only did she call you she asked about your whereabouts once you got home.
While I know you don't feel like you are arguing with your W you are. Stop pointing out your feelings. She knows you want the marriage to work. You dismiss her feelings at every turn. You do not listen to her because you are too busy trying to get her to see things your way.
I know you don't do this to be evil but really, every heated exchange the two of you have turns out this way. You have the power to change that. All sarcasm aside... do you just get caught up in the heat of the moment? Do you forget what you should be doing? Do you not understand what you should be doing? Perhaps if you can isolate why you keep going back to this same destructive pattern it will be helpful.
Remember when I told you that my H told me that when my dad died he would give me three months to "get over it"? And the more he pushed me to get over it the worse things became. Not only was I trying to process my father's very sudden death but I was also trying to process I had been diagnosed with a disease and on top of all that trying to process how insensitive my H was being.
The more my H tried to get me to see things "his way" the more angry I got. The more I shut down. The more I shut him out.
Do you know it was FOUR years later my H came to me and apologized with deep sincerity for that. I do believe in his mind he was thinking a timeline would be helpful to me since I had so much going on and in his crazy mind he was being helpful. I don't think he sat up at night trying to think of ways to make my life more stressful during that time. But the more he pushed his "agenda" on me the more I wanted to run for the hills.
If my H would have just shut up about his stupid time lines I would have felt tons less pressure.
When somebody is hurt, confused, shocked and bitter additional pressure does not good.
I know you don't do this to be evil but really, every heated exchange the two of you have turns out this way. You have the power to change that. All sarcasm aside... do you just get caught up in the heat of the moment? Do you forget what you should be doing? Do you not understand what you should be doing? Perhaps if you can isolate why you keep going back to this same destructive pattern it will be helpful.
Yes, exactly. To be VERY honest, I do not go looking for R talks with my W and for a little over a month W had not a one then in the past week we had 4 already. I get caught up in how good I think things were going that I just fail to validate and then when I remember what I should had said stupid me goes back and bring up the R talk so I can say those things...how insane is that?
There are others times where I think back to other great advice I have received from forum members that is not along the lines as some of you suggest and I found it to be productive as well.
I also have/had a DB coach ( I still have one session remaining) and I was told by him to validate W feelings by saying "I just want you to be happy" and forum members jumped on this and said absolutely not so I have not called back since then.
On a side note W's birthday is tomorrow. W is in a terrible mood. This would be the first year since we met that W and I do nothing special for her birthday. W told me just today "I am halfway to AARP, it is just another day" never has she had such a terrible attitude about her birthday and to her, I am the one to blame.
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
I have never had a DB session myself but I think it lasts only an hour or so, right? Has your DB Coach been really able to see the father/daughter pattern the two of you have? I ask because IMO that is why it seems nuts to say "I just want you to be happy". It reminds me of the spoiled child who pitches a fit to get what they want and the father who gives it to her.
I realize you can only say so much during one session but after so many posts on the board it is very easy to see the dynamic. IMO that is why other forum members suggest the "I just want you to be happy" angle won't work within the dynamic the two of you share.
I guess you really have to define productive. For the past few months it seems (to me and what the hell do I know) you are putting more clout in the "positive" things then what is really there. The dynamic really hasn't changed it just sort of quieted down. When your W is rude and disrespectful to you and treats you like as servant and you do it, well, things are fine. When you call her out on her behavior she doesn't like it and starts up with how much she hates you and blah blah blah.
IOW, you only feel improvement when you do what you have to do to keep your W "happy" even though she is behaving like a spoiled child. See what I mean?
Do I want our marriage to work, Yes. DO I think it is going to work, No. I don't want to push my W out the door nor do I want her to feel as if I do not want out marriage to work.
I just MYLU's sitch. The dynamics surrounding the sitch are not the same that surround mine.
Gucci's advice -- and the principles behind it -- are NEAR-UNIVERSAL, OIN, and they are based upon years and years of studying human interpersonal dynamics and what WORKS, esp. when there is infidelity involved.
You're listening not ONE WHIT. As C.G. said, your entire conversation with your wife is just you trying to convince her that her feelings are "wrong."
Feelings can't BE wrong, OIN -- they are what they are. It is your own blind stubbornness to that, despite everyone's best advice they've given you, that is "pushingyour wife out the door." Gucci's approach would actually be the OPPOSITE; you are giving her your validation, and her own freedom, if that's what she wants.
And look where you are. Your wife is telling you she hates you and your wife says she is done and your wife is so angry at you that she is throwing and breaking things. Seems to me that what you have been doing isn't working. Not only that, the clock is ticking against you hour by hour day by day....
You are fooling yourself if you think that when you weren't having relationship talks it meant things were better. Very foolish on your part. Just because two people aren't talking about the relationship has nothing in the world to do with what is going on in the relationship. These talks have only verified how she still feels. Don't go blaming the talks as the reason things seem different to you. They certainly aren't different to her. I suppose now you will see if you can go another two months or more without a talk and then will tell yourself that things are better because you haven't brought one up. The facts are you are scared to let her go because you believe she will go. That is still someone trying to control
It is NOT working. She is right. It isn't. He is wrong. He is the only one that isn't seeing that. He won't even admit it to us. The marriage is NOT working. Not for him and not for her. They are both unhappy. He needs to admit that to her. WHICH IS VALIDATION...
He is still trying to convince her that she is wrong, when she really really isn't. It isn't working for her and from his posts it certainly isn't what he wants in a relationship. Which translates into.. IT ISN'T WORKING> He just needs to admit it.
And look where you are. Your wife is telling you she hates you and your wife says she is done and your wife is so angry at you that she is throwing and breaking things. Seems to me that what you have been doing isn't working. Not only that, the clock is ticking against you hour by hour day by day....
You are fooling yourself if you think that when you weren't having relationship talks it meant things were better. Very foolish on your part. Just because two people aren't talking about the relationship has nothing in the world to do with what is going on in the relationship. These talks have only verified how she still feels. Don't go blaming the talks as the reason things seem different to you. They certainly aren't different to her. I suppose now you will see if you can go another two months or more without a talk and then will tell yourself that things are better because you haven't brought one up. The facts are you are scared to let her go because you believe she will go. That is still someone trying to control
I am a literal person and I take most of everything in the literal sense. My W has not ever before or during our sitch used the words "I hate you."
As an example...In the past I would fool myself into thinking W and I had made progress. I defined progress by W opening up to me and not being as bitter. W would want to do things with me. W would find herself having a good time and then realize this and throw out there "I am still leaving." Then we got to a point where W would find herself having a good time and accept it as that, a good time.
Another example...W would not dare talk about anything that had to do with improving the our home. If I or her mentioned something that each of us wanted for the house to do to improve the house W would say "Does not matter I am leaving anyway" Up till this past weekend W was all about making our house a home. We sat down and spoke plenty of times of future plans about our home that carried all the way through to next year. No it was not a commitment to our marriage but it was a commitment to our home that she wants to leave so bad...
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
