Future, did this happen after A with OM was over or during A? I think that my W A with OM is preventing this from happening because she has him as a backup.
Thanks and I'm really happy for you!
Thanks Ken62. We'll see how it goes, but I'm getting increasingly optimistic.
It's absolutely true that my W's A provided a significant barrier to her appreciating her feelings for me and our M. Through intel I was getting, I could see she was absolutely obsessed with OM, and had him propped up as a super fantasy. Although it was killing me, I knew I couldn't win against that fantasy, at least not directly. However, I knew it couldn't possibly last.
First, I wanted to consistently show her that we could be fun together. I embraced a light attitude toward life, and GALed extensively to make myself feel good and be more interesting. I did give her some attention, which allowed her to cake eat, but I was willing to accept that for a while, because our M had gotten so negative and stale, I knew she wouldn't choose to return to it. I needed to show her a new possibility.
She stuck tenaciously to her attachment to OM, which was infuriating. I didn't show her that it bothered me though. If I couldn't be a light and fun person around her, I tried to just avoid her. I now think that my allowing her to cake eat prolonged her investment in OM, as she felt she could always have me as a backup. However, I didn't feel I had a choice, I needed to do what I did.
As her A with OM died, she moved toward me, but on her terms, which p*ssed me off. After all I'd been through, I wanted more respect than that, so I rejected her and cut off from her. She had seen how we could be together. I wanted to see if she'd pursue me and give me the respect I deserved. I figured either she'd come back and meet me on better terms, or I'd move on. I had gotten to the point that I was fine either way. She did make the choice to give me much more of what I wanted
So to answer your question, I think I made some progress while my W's A was going on, but it wasn't until it was over, for a while, that she really came around. I do think that my actions during her A put pressure on it, and confused her, and caused her even more turmoil. Did that shorten the A? I don't know.
It did take three to four months of nearly no contact, and taking a few strong stands against her, along with her dying or dead A, before she finally broke down and asked for me back. It's a LONG process, unfortunately.
I'm really happy for you! And I am really proud of how you are handling it all!
GREAT WORK!!!
Thanks CityGirl! I have so much appreciation for you and the others here who offered me their support and advice. My situation isn't yet resolved, but it is feeling pretty good. I'm holding back quite a bit, which is good, and my W is noticing it. She recently asked me "Are you holding back because of how you feel, or our situation?" I thought about it for a while, and decided she was really asking me "Are you holding back because you're not sure how you feel about me, or because I hurt you so badly." I answered "If I understand your question right, it's situational." I was telling her that my feelings for her are real, but I can't jump back in after being so hurt.
What are you doing up so late???? I'm on the west coast, so that's my excuse.
Ok, I need to really think about what I'm going to require W to do to continue on this path. I can't go any further without dealing with this.
Here's what I've been pondering. I'd appreciate any feedback:
* Her returning to OM's country, even for her work, is toxic to our R, so if she isn't willing to let that go, I'm out
* Letter of no-contact must be sent to OM, authored by us together
* Transparency plan?
* She should pay back all the money OM gave her. We never got divorced, so he essentially gave US the money, and I won't live with that
* She needs to tell me why she wants to save our M, and explain why I'm not her "plan B"
* STD test?
Comments? Suggestions?
FU,
It's a pretty good list, and remarkably similar to mine -- right down to the "borrowing money from the OM" (my wife borrowed the $$$ for her legal retainer from him). Ugh.
I also had the STD test on mine -- "full-panel STD test, with the results to come to me."
This is the only one that jumps out at me:
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* She needs to tell me why she wants to save our M, and explain why I'm not her "plan B"
I understand what you're going for here, but it might be better to say "I need to know that you are 100% committed to our marriage. I will not be anyone's Plan B." I dunno.
Re: the first point. To what extent is her company REQUIRING her to go on this trip? Any way to independently verify that? I tend to agree, this would be a dealbreaker. I told my wife I could not feel safe in the marriage if she kept her job, at the gym where OM also worked. It pained her, but she did quit.
My W has a private practice, she's self employed. She had no NEED to ever go to OM's country. Her field has a specialized training center there she got involved with over the last two years, but in an e-mail she sent me a couple months ago, she said she was stopping her work there "indefinitely". She mixed her work and her A with OM. About a year ago, when she originally asked me about taking our kids there, I said "I support your work, but unfortunately you've intertwined it with something I can't support." She got ENRAGED and spewed all sorts of venom at me, threatened me legally and financially, etc, etc. I stood my ground. All the crap like that that occurred over the past year and a half, I'm not quite sure how to fit that into this possible reconciliation. I'm just pushing it aside for now.
However, I don't think her work is the biggest reason she may resist giving up OM's country. She spent time there in her youth, and got close to other people too, not just OM. I'd be asking her to give up those people, forever. Is that reasonable? There is no way she can ever go to that country again alone, and I have no interest in going with her. It's completely tainted now, and is toxic to our M. I'm not looking forward to having this discussion with her, and I'm sure she's not either. Should I at least give her that MAYBE she can resume her R with those people (not OM of course!) once I am 100% satisfied in her committment to our M, and has completely earned back my trust, but warn her that may be many years.
As far as the money is concerned, I don't think OM loaned her any money, but he did give her thousands of dollars so she could travel to see him. I hate to say what that made me think of her. That's why I would want all that paid back. I wouldn't want to tell her that though!
Regarding the "Plan B" stuff, perhaps I just need to have a frank discussion about the things she said to me over the past couple years, like "I don't love you like I should", "you're not capable of loving me the way I need to be loved", "I can't imagine us growing old together", etc, and ask her what's changed. Of course I know what's changed is that she was obsessed with OM, so how could she possibly love me the way she should, or accept my love, or imagine us growing old together. I want to hear how she explains it.
Regarding the STD test, she probably won't balk too much at that, she's practical that way, but she might insist I get one too. If I say I don't need one, I'm telling her something I'm not sure I want to give up yet. I could always just tell her ok and go get one.
One other thing I should add to my list is that EVERYTHING she got for or from OM has to be thrown out. Every e-mail, card, letter, picture, lingerie, etc. She might balk at that, but how can she defend it? What does she want, to keep a little "memory box" about her A? If she keeps it in secret, like at her office, I should ask her "How will I feel if something happens to you and in my devastated state I have to go clean out your office and find it?"
I guess all this will test just how much she wants this reconciliation. If she agrees to my requirements, is it then time for ME to fully return to the M? By asking all this of her, I feel like that's what I'd be doing, and I'm not sure I want that yet.
- I think you're absolutely right to insist on no trip to other country . . . RIGHT NOW. If she does have those childhood connections to it, tho, I think you're going to have to tell her that there will come a time again when you feel comfortable going WITH her there, but there are just too many triggers there for you right now. I don't think you have a right to say "never, and not alone, but i won't go with you," though.
- I think you're absolutely right that she get rid of her affair momentos -- Affair-Busting/Reconcilation 101 stuff, that. She may fight you on that, tho -- HARD. See Hope4Us's old posts on that; it took his wife nearly a YEAR, I think, including MONTHS even after they were going really good like you and your wife are right now (even better).
- If OM's $$$ wasn't a loan, but just on trips to see him, I think you should let that sleeping dog lie. Having her pay him back only keeps her entangled with him, financially and emotionally. Chalk it off!
- STD test, I think you should offer to get one too. If I"m reading you right, you don't want to be SO okay to this that she doesn't perceive any threat that you've dated someone else??? Heck, you could have been using protection, but in any event, fair is fair.
I can predict what is going to happen, on any one of the above, or some combination of them: your wife is going to revolt, and you're going to have a spew-filled, major-full-blown SETBACK.
Let her.
Stay calm, stay actually LOVING, and say "Look, I understand completely if you're not ready to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to feel safe again in the marriage, considering what you've been doing this past year."
and STICK TO THAT.
If she's sincere, it will blow over. If she's NOT, and this has all been some set-up to get her (and maybe your kids) to go to other country, then better you find out now.
I think you're absolutely right to insist on no trip to other country . . . RIGHT NOW. If she does have those childhood connections to it, tho, I think you're going to have to tell her that there will come a time again when you feel comfortable going WITH her there, but there are just too many triggers there for you right now. I don't think you have a right to say "never, and not alone, but i won't go with you," though.
That feels ok to me.
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I think you're absolutely right that she get rid of her affair momentos -- Affair-Busting/Reconcilation 101 stuff, that. She may fight you on that, tho -- HARD. See Hope4Us's old posts on that; it took his wife nearly a YEAR, I think, including MONTHS even after they were going really good like you and your wife are right now (even better).
I went and found Hope4Us's piecing thread. Strange reading it, as I remember reading some of it while it was happening, and I was in the worst of my sitch. Their sitch is about a year ahead of mine. In my sitch, I think I avoided some of what Hope4Us had to endure because my W did some of her healing while I was totally withdrawn from her and employing a NC approach, which helped me so much. My W seems to be in a place similar to where Hope4Us's W was several months after her A ended. I haven't picked up on any significant mood swings. Every time I see her or interact with her she seems fine. That was definitely NOT the case last year, or even earlier this year. I am becoming more and more a proponent of the no contact approach.
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If OM's $$$ wasn't a loan, but just on trips to see him, I think you should let that sleeping dog lie. Having her pay him back only keeps her entangled with him, financially and emotionally. Chalk it off!
Yeah, I guess you're right. I think I just want OM to get a no contact letter with a big fat check in it, effectively saying to him "Our R is over, for good. I can't change the past, but I can give you back your money." Even if I should chalk it off, this would help me put it behind me. I know I have to pick my battles though.
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STD test, I think you should offer to get one too. If I"m reading you right, you don't want to be SO okay to this that she doesn't perceive any threat that you've dated someone else??? Heck, you could have been using protection, but in any event, fair is fair.
Exactly.
Quote:
I can predict what is going to happen, on any one of the above, or some combination of them: your wife is going to revolt, and you're going to have a spew-filled, major-full-blown SETBACK.
Let her.
Stay calm, stay actually LOVING, and say "Look, I understand completely if you're not ready to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to feel safe again in the marriage, considering what you've been doing this past year."
and STICK TO THAT.
If she's sincere, it will blow over. If she's NOT, and this has all been some set-up to get her (and maybe your kids) to go to other country, then better you find out now.
I agree that's a real possibility. Sometimes I wonder if asking for all this stuff just reeks of weakness. I think my strength is really what's attracted her back. Part of me thinks the gucci, Steve McQueen, robx approach is better. Be strong, be confident, so she instinctively knows if she crosses some obvious boundary, like contacting OM, or holding onto mementos from OM, then she risks me dumping HER. Not going back to OM's country is obvious. If in a year she says she's going, I'd respond "Have fun, D papers will be waiting for you when you get back." I'm really starting to think the most powerful position to be in is one where your W knows you have enough strength and self respect to walk if betrayed, one where she preemptively tries to put herself in the best possible situation to KEEP you.
Got back from my trip this evening. W asked if I wanted to meet her and the kids at a baseball game she was taking them to. I said okay. She had arranged for another family to go too, a family that we socialized with together before all this happened, but that she got in the split. I've seen them here and there, but I hadn't socialized with them since W moved out. This is her first attempt at re-introducing me into her social world. We had a great time at the baseball game. We transitioned kids in the parking lot and I just got home with them and put them to bed.
Since other family was at the baseball game with us, W and I could leave our kids for a few minutes to go get concessions. We were flirting a bit, and I looked into her eyes a couple times. She said "It's killing you, isn't it?" I said "What?" She said "You so want to kiss me." I feigned indifference and said "Nope, not getting that from me. You'll have to kiss me if that's what you want." She playfully said "Oh no, not me." I just smiled and walked on. When we stopped for some napkins she grabbed me and kissed me, pretty intensely for being in the middle of a big crowd.
Us hiding our affection from the kids is becoming a fun game. We try to steal little moments together like that. The kids obviously see we're being very friendly, but we hide most of what we're doing, for now. Some of my friends are somewhat judgemental, saying "You shouldn't be doing that in front of the kids, it'll just get their hopes up." My argument back is "Is it really that bad that our kids see us trying? Is it better if all they remember is one day Mommy moved out, and that was it? Seems to me that would leave them with a terrible kernel of insecurity to bring into their M someday." I don't buy this modern idea that when two parents split up, they should NEVER EVER let the kids see them acting "romantic", because it will give the kids "false hope". Well, I know this isn't "false hope", it's "real hope". Is it guaranteed? No, but we're trying. Even if it doesn't work, the kids could at least remember that we tried for a LONG time.
