But as you say Puppy, I don't really KNOW, since I refuse to do the intel thing again. My soul can't handle any more. If I decide to try for reconciliation, I'll have to trust to some degree. I always thought I'd insist on a no contact letter though, so I'd probably do that.
Save your paper. A no-contact letter, without a good transparency plan behind it, is of no value.
I think what bothers me about this situation has much to do with the conversation the two of you had when got together for drinks.
When you asked her why she was suing you for full custody her response was the children need a "full time" home and she had been the primary caregiver since birth. Prior to the lawsuit it seems you and your W had a pretty decent custody plan in place even if it was informal. She certainly had NO issue leaving you with the children when she was off to visit OM.
If her concern for the children was *so* grave why make the leap to an immediate lawsuit without even approaching you first? IMO she lost total control of you and the lawsuit was her way of gaining it back. It makes ZERO sense that somebody who is a trained therapist (your W) would even think for one second a surprise lawsuit was a good first step instead of a conversation between the two vested parties.
Your W may have been the primary caregiver since birth but divorce often changes primary and secondary roles. It's an unfortunate aspect of divorce but it is what it is.
When you and your W had drinks she lightly glossed over the custody/lawsuit issue and went right to the flirty/kissing/digging for info about your personal life issue. I hate to say this but I do wonder if she was gathering intel on your personal life in case the lawsuit does go any further.
If she felt strongly enough to sue you without so much a conversation or heads up then it seems to me if she "hates" the situation that much way more focus would have been put on the custody issue during your date.
I mean, your W was willing to travel halfway around the world to see OM and thought you were more than suitable to be the primary caregiver while she was having her affair. What changed? IMO nothing has changed other than (A) the OM dumped her and (B) she saw you moving on and realized how much control she had lost. And like it or not those reasons have NOTHING to do with the children and that is very, very sad.
I don't know really. We all want the very best for you.
I agree with CityGirl on this. There was no deep discussion on the reason for suing for full custody. She quickly got to your personal life and then the kiss. She's good, at manipulation, that is. Her answer for suing is standard legal speak.
But, I can see that you are stepping lightly and will not give up your half of custody. I don't think you should date her until you have a better and more complete answer to why she is suing you for full custody. For instance, she could give a reason as to why the kids would be better off with her? It's working right now, so why would she rock the boat?
Take care.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Yes, that was the robx post I was thinking of. I liked the spirit of it. I don't have answers, and I'm not committed to any plan. This has all caught me a bit off guard.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the whole "no contact letter, transparency plan" is really for infidelity situations where the A gets busted while it's still in the crazy addiction phase, where the wayward spouse is ripped from OP, and is going through withdrawal. I wish I was stronger in the early days of my sitch, I might have been able to bust the A. From what I know about my W and how she was feeling, I would have been in a CONSTANT battle to try to prevent the A from flaring back up, again and again.
Unfortunately, I didn't bust the A. It ran it's own course over the last two years (!!, wow, time flies when you're having fun). I kept pressure on her, I was tough in our legal mediations, I made it crystal clear that I'd never let her take our kids to OM's country, and I showed her that I would not allow the artifacts from her trips to be in my house. I refused to normalize her A, which drove her nuts. She normalized it within her inner circle of friends, who were giggly with interest over her stories of passion, but me, my family, my friends, one key friend of hers, and most of her family would not accept her A as "ok". All of this I think contributed to the death of the A to some degree. I did what I could to make sure her reality was nowhere near the fantasy of how she thought it would go.
My W has known OM since they were teenagers. He was "in love" with her back then, but she had no interest. They have gone through periods of 10+ years of no contact. I know from intel that she had no contact from him the entire time she knew me until two years ago when our M was falling apart, and she started an e-mail correspondence with him, which grew to an EA, and then PA. I knew from my intel that my W was behaving in a manner I'd never seen. She was over the top crazy about OM, someone who had pursued her in the past and was always rebuffed. This is all common A stuff, and is fueled by years of resentment over her unmet needs in our M. All of a sudden OM became the greatest thing in the world, and she threw herself at him every way she could. My failure as a H led her to feel unwanted at a core level, and OM filled that need.
I didn't mean to imply that I wasn't worried about any further contact with OM, I am, and I could try to deal with that through transparency, but like I said, they've gone through long periods of no contact in the past, and he has no W or family. Deep in the back of my mind I imagine 10-15 years from now, we're empty nesters, our M is going through a lull, my W has had no contact with OM the whole time, but is feeling unhappy, remembers the thrill of her A, gets tempted and in a moment of horrible judgement, as she has shown herself capable of in the past, decides to send OM something like
"Hi OM, I don't know what's going on in your life right now, but I'm finding myself thinking about you and the incredible adventure we shared together. I did try to save my M, mostly for my kids, but they're grown now, and it's clear to me that H and I are not intended to grow old together. I'm now free to travel unencumbered. Do you ever think about the plans we talked about all those years ago?"
Of course in standard WAW fashion, she'll send that to him BEFORE letting me know she's planning on leaving me, and wait to see if she has another option. THAT's what will keep me up at night if I decide to try to save my M. Short term contact I can try to deal with, but this kind of thing will loom out there like a hidden monster, and I refuse the live the rest of my life in fear. My alternatives are:
1. Leave my W and M behind, for good. 2. Keep myself so emotionally strong and avoid co-dependence so that if she does leave me again I'm not devastated. 3. Take it upon myself to make sure our M stays strong and healthy, i.e. make it "affair proof".
The last option is the only one I'm interested in, and it would depend greatly on my W committing to the exact same thing. I hate to sound jaded, but I've learned that at my age, EVERYONE has baggage of one kind or another. At least I know hers. I could leave my M behind, meet some wonderful woman, get married, have no idea that she has a monster looming in the dark too, and get completely blindsided by it.
I NEVER NEVER NEVER thought my W was capable of doing what she did. Other women here say the same thing about themselves. I can't just cast my W aside as "defective", when I know she's just human, like everyone else. Inside, I believe she was 100% committed to our M, and lived for many years having some core needs go unmet, trying and trying to be happy, before going down the path she did. Still, I can't ignore the enormous damage done to me and our R. I believe almost anything is possible, but trusting her again might be beyond my reach. Maybe ignorance is bliss, and even if a new woman has a monster looming, the fact that I don't know about it is a good thing.
I guess what I am confused about is why you are thinking so much about this now (and I realize you are just throwing things out there) when there is a lawsuit looming. Your W did blow off your questions about it and to me that is not good.
Think about it... your W was very sappy and was wearing her ring when you took the children on vacation. You have said numerous times your W looks sad as the children seem to prefer you over her during family time. She claims she has been the primary caregiver to the children but isn't part of that realizing what is BEST for the children? And what is best is to have a very involved mom and dad even if they don't live together. Your children do very well when they are with you. You are doing very well alone/casually dating. IOW, you need her for nothing and she knows it.
Unless your W is willing to drop the lawsuit and surrender to the fact her choices have resulted in 50/50 custody then I would be very, very suspicious of her motives. And, to take it a step further the 50/50 custody no longer should be informal but a formally filed court document.
Once you said the children would not be leaving the country with her she changed her tune really fast. As I said, you were more than suitable to be a full time parent while she was away for 2+ weeks with OM. Once she realized her children would not be a part of her travels she felt punished (IMO) so she decided to punish you right back.
I think what bothers me about this situation has much to do with the conversation the two of you had when got together for drinks.
When you asked her why she was suing you for full custody her response was the children need a "full time" home and she had been the primary caregiver since birth. Prior to the lawsuit it seems you and your W had a pretty decent custody plan in place even if it was informal. She certainly had NO issue leaving you with the children when she was off to visit OM.
If her concern for the children was *so* grave why make the leap to an immediate lawsuit without even approaching you first? IMO she lost total control of you and the lawsuit was her way of gaining it back. It makes ZERO sense that somebody who is a trained therapist (your W) would even think for one second a surprise lawsuit was a good first step instead of a conversation between the two vested parties.
Your W may have been the primary caregiver since birth but divorce often changes primary and secondary roles. It's an unfortunate aspect of divorce but it is what it is.
When you and your W had drinks she lightly glossed over the custody/lawsuit issue and went right to the flirty/kissing/digging for info about your personal life issue. I hate to say this but I do wonder if she was gathering intel on your personal life in case the lawsuit does go any further.
If she felt strongly enough to sue you without so much a conversation or heads up then it seems to me if she "hates" the situation that much way more focus would have been put on the custody issue during your date.
I mean, your W was willing to travel halfway around the world to see OM and thought you were more than suitable to be the primary caregiver while she was having her affair. What changed? IMO nothing has changed other than (A) the OM dumped her and (B) she saw you moving on and realized how much control she had lost. And like it or not those reasons have NOTHING to do with the children and that is very, very sad.
I don't know really. We all want the very best for you.
Thanks CityGirl, I can tell you folks really do care, and I'm touched. The Internet played a big role in the origins of my situation, and part of me hated it for a while, but I also appreciate how it brings help and support from people like those here.
While I don't agree that we "glossed over" the custody discussion, it was the majority of our talk, I do agree it was odd how that transitioned to her wanting to know about my personal life. From how well I know her, and what her Mom told me, I believe she is jealous, and doesn't want to lose me. Our conversation was a combination of sincerity from her and manipulation. I've gotten good at seeing both. In fact, her manipulation was obvious and weak, because she knows her hand is dwindling in strength. She actually said "What happens between us is definitely connected to how you handle yourself regarding this custody issue."
Trained therapist or not, she's is driven by emotion to a large degree, and I'm nearly certain the lawsuit was to get my attention, and it worked. The question is, why does she want my attention? Where on the scale between cake eating and desire for reconciliation do her feelings fall? That I'm NOT good at gauging, and as Gnosis and Puppy said, if I stay the course, it should be more clear.
I agree, our current custody plan is working ok, given the circumstances. The kids are showing no issue in school, are getting good grades, and are generally happy. Yes, they cling to each of us a bit when they're with us, but what does she expect? She only sees them cling to her, funny she can't imagine that they cling to me the same way. And of course, the fact that she left the kids with me during her trips makes her arguments all the more hollow.
I've got a delicate balance to do here. If I pull back and give her no other option, she'll pursue the legal path and things will get ugly and expensive. I will not buckle and let her bully me, so is there a middle ground? Does it involve dating her? Does it involve reconciliation? Like I've said over and over, I need to let time pass and work through all these thoughts.
I understand you have quite a bit to think about and work through.
The thing is... you did give her MANY options for a long time. She chose not to take advantage of any of them. Once you stopped giving her options she sued you. Yes, the legal path will be costly and expensive but that is what she chose. She certainly had an awful lot of leeway for 2+ years to make different choices.
If you feel the only way to protect yourself and your children is to offer her more options then I think you *really* need to evaluate who your W really is.
In most situations we have many options. As time passes the options dwindle. Are you required to offer her options again simply to avoid a legal battle? IMO that keeps you very much under her control.
I guess what I am confused about is why you are thinking so much about this now (and I realize you are just throwing things out there) when there is a lawsuit looming.
The reason I'm thinking so much about it is precisely BECAUSE the lawsuit is looming. A legal guardian has been appointed for my kids. They will need to be interviewed before our next court date in four weeks. If I can de-fuse this bomb before it goes off I will, but only if it agrees with what I want moving forward.
From what I can tell, my W gave me two clear choices. If we are getting divorced, she will fight to get primary custody of the kids. I think she'll lose, but it will be ugly and costly. She then said she doesn't want a divorce and she passionately kissed me. In a nutshell, that's what she did. Maybe her manipulation and arguments were obvious and hollow, but it still comes down to, what do I want?
