new chapter with strange WAW

[Gnosis]

"Think about the kids instead of yourself."

Your response: "I am"

"I'm their mother and I've been their primary caregiver since birth."

Your response: "I'm their father and I've made sure they have been well looked after since birth."

I may point out to her that if we are on a path that may lead to reconciliation, then we will start spending more time together as a family, and so we'll each get more time with the kids.

Get off the pursuing bandwagon already and let her do some work for a change.

I will continue to be nice, and friendly, and flirtatious.

And NOT too available and slightly distant. If I was you I would keep up your friendship with that other lady. I would be one helluva lot less available and would make sure to sidestep the hoops she has prepared for you to jump through.

If she wants back in she will make the effort... I honestly don't know why the heck you're thinking about changing tack now when it has been working. LET HER PURSUE YOU. You are in demand. A valuable commodity. Not just anyone - ESPECIALLY a woman who has cheated on you, used you, abused you, tricked you, lied to you and led you on the wonderful merry-go-round of rejection - can get your attention.

A tough balance between letting her know I'm interested, without making her feel she's in the driver's seat. In fact, I want her to know she's NOT in the driver's seat.

And you do that by following the path you have been on.

In my case, I have the advantage that OM is on the other side of the world.

And here buckwheat is where you still DON'T GET IT. The goal is to own as much mental real estate in her mind as you can get. He OWNS her mind and has had ownership of it for about TWO years.

If she is thinking of you, what you are doing, who you are doing it with, when you are doing it, has she lost you for good, how she can get you back... THAT IS GOOD.

I'm relatively certain the A is over.

That's because OM decided that. I bet you that if he so much as sends a small text it will reignite her fantasies and she will drop you like a hot potatoe. PLEASE TRUST ME ON THIS.

she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone."

BZZZTT ... wrong answer babe. Did you see the escape clause? I did... one word... "planning"

Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me.

How have your ass-umptions worked out for you in the past?

If my W and I are to take any step forward,

See how you're being drawn back into the melting pot? A few nice words, a kiss... and Future's hormones and hopes are raging again. Two words: DROP IT.

Will I insist on transparency? I don't know.

Are you that desperate? If you are I'll put on my diving suit and come visit your wreck at the bottom of the ocean. Transparency is a NON-NEGOTIABLE requirement.

and more affected by how it makes me feel about her, that she's manipulating both sides of this in such an ugly manner.

Look into a recent history... this is not something new for her.

Unfortunately, I think I will also need her to give up all travel to OM's country altogether.

You're a LONNNNNNNG way from that my friend. But yes, that's a reasonable request.

She will strongly resist making that concession,

Really? Then dump her.

but I'm not sure our M can, nor should need to, survive her ongoing trips there,

It won't because it will leave you a bubbling shell of what used to be a man.

In case you didn't get the message so far... keep on your previous course. Do not blink. Do not look back. Keep the interesting other girl in the picture. You are nowhere near thinking about reconciliation. Geez man, get a grip on yourself! Are you honestly that easy?

You stay your course and if she is committed she will chase after YOU! She has a proven track record. Are you really that fogged out to see that if she really wants you she will chase you to the ends of the Earth... like she did with OM? Wake up brother. Keep living your wonderful new life of freedom. If she wants "in" she will make the effort.

[musclegal]

Hi Future,

Its been awhile. A few weeks and a LOT has happened. My divorce was finalized, I had a "Bachelorette Fete" to mark a new beginning, I met a nice man, I ran into my H and his GF (the day before our Divorce) at a restaurant and actually shook hands with the OW (not at ALL what I expected--she's dumpy!)...I had three wonderful dates with this new man, who is generous and kind and thinks I the best thing going in town...

And now my XH is sending me text messages about how miserable he is and how his life has only gotten worse and worse since he met the OW in 2008. I can already see it coming on...and frankly, right now, I don't want him back. He hasn't LEARNED anything.

Future, she's been counting on you being her Plan B. She got nervous when she saw you were moving on. Don't be anyone's Plan B. Don't do anything quickly and nothing slowly, even, unless and until she shows you that SHE has learned something...

What's this about how YOU were such an a**hole? Jeez, doesn't she take ANY responsibility for her actions????

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I'm relatively certain the A is over. After she asked me last night if I was seeing anyone, she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone." Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me. Is there any ongoing contact with OM? I don't know. I haven't pursued intel for over a year, and I'm really not interested in doing it now. If my W and I are to take any step forward, I will need her to assure me all contact is severed, forever. Will I insist on transparency? I don't know.

With all due respect, Future, this "plan" of yours is so full of holes, I don't know where to start.

"I don't know" is not a position from which to make MAJOR -- potentially LIFE-CHANGING -- decisions (divorce, custody, etc.).

Trying to reconcile without transparency is a recipe for disaster. The recidivism rate for infidelity is high, and when there is no "no-contact" letter sent, no transparency, and no good, infidelity-based MCing, it's EXTREMELY high -- I'd estimate over 90%.

As for her "assuring" you, if there IS no more contact, she will say there is no more contact. And if there IS still contact, she will say there is no more contact. Good luck with that.

By the way, how can you be "relatively certain" the affair is over, if you have no intel???

Puppy

[futureunknown]

Wow, the 2x4's are whacking me left and right. I'm all bruised up. Thank God I post my thoughts here before I actually do anything. Realize I haven't even contacted W since our interaction last night.

Maybe my posts sound more literal than they are. I have no "plan". I'm not doing anything, just pondering. One thing I've learned through all this is to NOT act impulsively. I'm sure W is wondering "Why isn't he contacting me?" She contacted me twice today, once to tell me how our sick daughter is doing, and once to ask me to go see a movie with her Monday night. I haven't given her a reply yet.

I appreciate everyone's responses and concern. My friends and family are expressing very similar thoughts to what I'm getting here. I'm really not swayed by her words, or kisses, like I would have been a year ago. I'm still very muching GALing. I was out tonight after playing basketball, I have plans tomorrow night, and tentative plans Saturday night too.

Get off the pursuing bandwagon already and let her do some work for a change.

And NOT too available and slightly distant. If I was you I would keep up your friendship with that other lady. I would be one helluva lot less available and would make sure to sidestep the hoops she has prepared for you to jump through.

If she wants back in she will make the effort... I honestly don't know why the heck you're thinking about changing tack now when it has been working. LET HER PURSUE YOU. You are in demand. A valuable commodity. Not just anyone - ESPECIALLY a woman who has cheated on you, used you, abused you, tricked you, lied to you and led you on the wonderful merry-go-round of rejection - can get your attention.

I have done NOTHING to pursue her, not for several months. I'm not sure I even want to reconcile with her. She's the one doing the pursuing.

And here buckwheat is where you still DON'T GET IT. The goal is to own as much mental real estate in her mind as you can get. He OWNS her mind and has had ownership of it for about TWO years.

If she is thinking of you, what you are doing, who you are doing it with, when you are doing it, has she lost you for good, how she can get you back... THAT IS GOOD.

How do I not get it? I totally get it. That's why I'm not responding to her asking for a date yet. She'll be wondering all night.

That's because OM decided that. I bet you that if he so much as sends a small text it will reignite her fantasies and she will drop you like a hot potatoe. PLEASE TRUST ME ON THIS.

I really don't know, but I wouldn't doubt it. Again realize, he's on the other side of the world. She has her kids here. He told her he'd move here, then he weaseled out of it. I think she saw his true colors a bit, but I really don't know. At some point, I need to ask about this, if I care.

BZZZTT ... wrong answer babe. Did you see the escape clause? I did... one word... "planning"

How have your ass-umptions worked out for you in the past?

See how you're being drawn back into the melting pot? A few nice words, a kiss... and Future's hormones and hopes are raging again. Two words: DROP IT.

You're reading too much into this. I was merely pointing out the obvious, that she said she doesn't want to date anyone, then she kissed me, so I assumed she meant she DID want to date me. Given that she asked me out tonight, I'd say I was right. My hopes are irrelevent, since I don't know if I even want her back, let alone hope for it. My hormones are fine, thanks. I admit, my posts sound a little excited. I have waited for this for a long time.

Are you that desperate? If you are I'll put on my diving suit and come visit your wreck at the bottom of the ocean. Transparency is a NON-NEGOTIABLE requirement.

I have to admit, I'm pondering this a bit. I was taken by a post Steve McQueen or gucci or robx posted, that said asking for transparency is a demonsration of weakness. Either I believe and trust her or I don't. If I don't, I should leave her behind, but if I choose not to, I have to be willing to risk further heartbreak.

In case you didn't get the message so far... keep on your previous course. Do not blink. Do not look back. Keep the interesting other girl in the picture. You are nowhere near thinking about reconciliation. Geez man, get a grip on yourself! Are you honestly that easy?

You stay your course and if she is committed she will chase after YOU! She has a proven track record. Are you really that fogged out to see that if she really wants you she will chase you to the ends of the Earth... like she did with OM? Wake up brother. Keep living your wonderful new life of freedom. If she wants "in" she will make the effort.

I hear you loud and clear. I will not be easy. I'm not thinking about reconciliation. I'm thinking about dating her. There were actually two women I was dating recently, but they've both petered out, which is fine. Don't want W to know that though, and if I meet someone else I like, I'll date her too.

I do want to know if W will chase me. She has already chased a bit. I'll keep my distance. Even if I do decide to spend some time with her, I'll be coy about my life, and how she fits into it.

[futureunknown]

Hi Future,

Its been awhile. A few weeks and a LOT has happened. My divorce was finalized, I had a "Bachelorette Fete" to mark a new beginning, I met a nice man, I ran into my H and his GF (the day before our Divorce) at a restaurant and actually shook hands with the OW (not at ALL what I expected--she's dumpy!)...I had three wonderful dates with this new man, who is generous and kind and thinks I the best thing going in town...

And now my XH is sending me text messages about how miserable he is and how his life has only gotten worse and worse since he met the OW in 2008. I can already see it coming on...and frankly, right now, I don't want him back. He hasn't LEARNED anything.

Future, she's been counting on you being her Plan B. She got nervous when she saw you were moving on. Don't be anyone's Plan B. Don't do anything quickly and nothing slowly, even, unless and until she shows you that SHE has learned something...

What's this about how YOU were such an a**hole? Jeez, doesn't she take ANY responsibility for her actions????

musclegal! I have been wondering what's up with you. Sounds liek you're doing great. Not at all surprised how your H is starting to long for his old life. Just as in my case, hold tough.

I totally hear you about being plan B. I may even bring that up to her and see if she has any way to defend that argument. I didn't at all mind her calling me an a**hole. I was an a**hole in many ways during our M, and she absolutely has owned her own failings too. You need to go way back in my history here, but when she and I were talking last fall, she was very brutal with herself on how she failed me and our M, in terms of financially and emotionally. She referred to herself as "the biggest loser wife in the world". I was blown away.

[futureunknown]

With all due respect, Future, this "plan" of yours is so full of holes, I don't know where to start.

"I don't know" is not a position from which to make MAJOR -- potentially LIFE-CHANGING -- decisions (divorce, custody, etc.).

Trying to reconcile without transparency is a recipe for disaster. The recidivism rate for infidelity is high, and when there is no "no-contact" letter sent, no transparency, and no good, infidelity-based MCing, it's EXTREMELY high -- I'd estimate over 90%.

As for her "assuring" you, if there IS no more contact, she will say there is no more contact. And if there IS still contact, she will say there is no more contact. Good luck with that.

By the way, how can you be "relatively certain" the affair is over, if you have no intel???

Again, I don't really have a plan right now, I'm just throwing out my thoughts and feelings, totally for the purpose of getting reactions and opinions from folks here, which I greatly appreicate.

I will probably require some sort of plan for dealing with her infidelity, again assuming I even want to move forward with her. Again though, the fact that OM is so far away makes it a bit easier for me. She can't bump into him, or spontaneously arrange an afternoon meeting. It takes her a day to get there and a day to get back, so it would be pretty obvious if she were to leave for three days! However, he could always come here, shore up in a hotel, and arrange some afternoon delight. So far he's shown himself to be a coward, always requiring her to come to him.

As I said in my ealier post, I'm not sure I'm real big on demanding transparency, it seems so weak. I would have to make it clear that if she EVER betrays me again, at all, I will be absolutely GONE, for good, and I will be merciless in the divorce. It all has to do with being the strong man I never was in our M.

In my case, I'm not worried about casual recitivism during reconciliation. I not NOT worried about it, but my major concern is more like ten to fifteen years from now, when the kids are grown up, and if our M hits a rough patch, will she run back to OM? That's what I'm worried about, and I can't demand transparency for the rest of our life together. That's how I'm stuck, and that's why I very well might decide to just leave her and my M behind. I don't know if I want to spend the rest of my life worrying about that.

I understand that I can't trust her regarding her statements about OM. Again, since he's so far away, I can get some amount of assurance as time goes by and she doesn't go back there. I know from previous intel that their long distance thing was NOT working out, which was a big reason it ended. Right after the first time she met up with him they "broke up" because it was impossible. She got it going again, but it had nowhere near the excitement and luster, and when she got back from seeing him the second time, they broke up again, for longer. She scraped and scrounged and begged and managed to get it sort of going again, but it was seriously dying last fall when she went the last time. I have no idea what happened, as I had stopped my intel by then for my own sanity, but immeiately upon return she told me she wasn't going back. This last time she went she didn't stay with OM, I do know that from a little intel. She did legitimately spend most of her time in training for her work. She may have seen OM, probably did, and probably had sex with him too, but I do know their romance was on serious life support.

She's come out of the fog to some degree, and she sees how he backed away from his previous intent to move here so they could be blissfully happy. W was going through her heartbreak last fall, and now seems over it to a large degree. It's been three to six months, depending on exactly what happend, but from what I understand, that's a reasonable time for the obsession over an A to be nearly erased. But as you say Puppy, I don't really KNOW, since I refuse to do the intel thing again. My soul can't handle any more. If I decide to try for reconciliation, I'll have to trust to some degree. I always thought I'd insist on a no contact letter though, so I'd probably do that.

[Lotus]

Have you considered going to a Retrouvaille weekend with her? I understand that you don't trust the woman she has been and perhaps still is. But people can and do change if the choose to. I know because I have done it myself, and so has my husband. And we did it with the help of the Retrouvaille program. It is a matter of looking introspectively and deciding what you want for your life, and then living by the choices that you have made.

[musclegal]

Future,
It might be too soon for Retrouvaille. Lotus is right that it is a great program. It will work, but only if you BOTH have DECIDED you want to TRY to reconcile and to put all your efforts into it. Otherwise, it won't work. And if she's still thinking about OM, even if its just in her fantasies, it will be difficult. At least that's what happened to me. I don't think it will work until/unless you are to that point...and it is a pretty emotional experience. But if you get there, and you both decide openly and honestly that you want to try to get back together--after considerable thought and consideration (not just a nice kiss and a couple of hugs) then its the best thing out there in terms of giving it your best shot. I wouldn't try it again unless we were way out in terms of time and place of the A.

[futureunknown]

I have thought about Retrovaille in the past. Perhaps it's a good thing that the next Retrovaille near here isn't until this fall, because I agree, it's way too soon. Musclegal, did you go to Retrovaille?

I need to decide what I even want, and I'm in no hurry to do so. Like Gnosis said, I need to stay on the course I was on, but I won't be quite so absolutely distant from her. Realize over the last few months I barely acknowledged her, even when she was right next to me. It was good for me to help me detach, but it had a tinge of ugliness to it, like I wasn't even giving her basic human respect. I think I'm detached enough now that I can at least give her that. The fact that she took that without acting insulted showed me that she does feel guilt for what she's done, and that she knows she deserved that treatment at some level.

I also know she never quite let go of her love for me. I could see it in her through all this. Puppy and sandi2 have even detected and commented on it as this situation evolved. I know I was a very poor husband to her in a fundamental way, a way that I've learned leads directly to an A. I know how she grew up also contributed to her suceptibility to an A. These are all reasons I choose not to just take a "f*ck her" attitude. If she has truly reflected on these things, and has let go of OM, and truly wants to save our M and family, I'm going to have a hard time just walking away. I have learned the value of time though, so I'm in no hurry to do anything.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

That's what I'm worried about, and I can't demand transparency for the rest of our life together. That's how I'm stuck, and that's why I very well might decide to just leave her and my M behind. I don't know if I want to spend the rest of my life worrying about that.

That makes no sense to me, and just sounds defeatist and fatalistic. Your logic is, "it's weak to demand transparency, so I just need to trust her, and I'm not sure if I CAN trust her, so maybe I'll just chuck the marriage and leave her behind."

I haven't seen the direct quotes from Robx and McQueen about transparency, but if that's what they said, I strongly disagree. I'd rather go by what the BEST INFIDELITY EXPERTS SAY out there (Glass, Harley, McGraw, Tuppy, et al), and a good transparency plan -- for some temporary period of time -- is ESSENTIAL.

I do know that Robx advocates a pretty high-risk, but totally-drop-the-rope plan that -- in certain instances -- I LIKE, and that I've even quoted and recommended around here:

RobX’s approach:



Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.

You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.

You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.

You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.

For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?

Don't ask for for full disclosure.

Do the opposite.

Tell her this:

"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.

I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.

From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.

If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.

If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.

I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."


No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.

Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.

You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.

You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?

Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.

Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.


I don't think this really fits your sitch, but I do think it would be better than what you're doing now.

Puppy