I understand wanting to be prepared for the possible direction a talk could take!
I have to disagree that your W has not been cold. Maybe we define cold in a different way but having you served with custody papers w/o so much a mention to you is pretty cold IMO. Perhaps harsh would have been a better word to use.
And yes, civil was sort of what I meant by a "positive vibe". You want to show your children despite the circumstances you can remain positive about your life and remain positive when you have to deal with your W.
Maybe right now, aside from the custody issue, you don't have to decide what you want. It's very good you are focused on you and feel more detached than you had in the past.
Ha! Yeah, serving me with custody papers is pretty cold, isn't it? I never saw it as anything other than an emotional reaction to my distant and detached demeanor toward her. She's such an implusive person. In a strange way, her serving me only convinced me more that she's still attached to me.
For the first time in a LONG time, I called my W on the phone last night, not to simply arrange a child transition, but rather to talk and arrange a time to go out together. Was ok, but somewhat awkward. We only talked for a few minutes. Pretty funny, W said she got served with papers today. She said she was being compelled to testify in a case involving one of her clients. When she got served she assumed it was from me. I wonder what she thought at that moment. I'll ask her when I see her. We're supposed to meet at a restaurant tomorrow night.
Last year I was so hungry to talk with her, now I feel very srange. A big part of me just wants to walk away and leave all this crap behind. The other part of me knows we need to talk. I have to strike a balance between protecting myself, yet being present enough to hear what she has to say, without kneejerk reaction.
Ok, can't wait until morning. Here's what went down tonight when I met my W out for a couple drinks.
Regardless of what I may or may not want looking forward, I followed standard DB rules, and I made sure I was looking my best. She arrives and is acting very friendly. We have small talk about various things until I finally just ask her "So why are you suing me?" She gets serious and says she thinks the kids are not doing as well as they could, and that they need more stability. She wants them to start sleeping primarily at her house, in return she'll give me more time with them in the evenings when I'm not at work. She was spinning it like I would get more overall time with them. I was skeptical, but I listened and didn't react. I said I was open to being flexible regarding the kids, but I don't see myself giving up my custody, and no way would I make a decision right there and then. She dug her heals in, but it stayed civil and friendly.
Then she said "Let's talk about us." I said "Ok." She asked what was up with my flirting lately. I was puzzled and said I hugged her at the restaurant because I felt a connection at the kids doctors's appts, and that she looked sad. She said "I was sad." She said "I don't know what to make of it, but I'm attracted to you again. I'm not scared of you, and I think I'm strong enough to handle us again." I asked why, and she said "Because of how you've handled this whole lawsuit thing." I said "I didn't do anything" and she said "Exactly, there are a lot of things you could have done, but you didn't, you stayed respectful, and kind." I just nodded.
She said "You're nice again, when we met you were nice, then you got to be such an a**hole." She said "I really loved you then, and I've told you, that never completely went away." I said "I'm not sure why I was so stressed out, but I've realized life is too short to get stressed over unimportant stuff." She asked "So are you seeing anyone?" I hestitated, then remembered a past gucci post. I slowly answered "I'm kinda seeing someone." She smiled, but didn't say anything. Then I smiled back and slowly added "I'm a free agent though." She laughed. She reiterated "You seem like you're nice all the time." I saw an opportunity for a little playing, so I said "Oh, I'm nice all the time now, except when I don't WANT to be nice" and I winked at her. She playfully answered back "It's fun to not be nice at certain times."
Then I got serious, and I explained why I stalled on the separation agreement. I said "Something inside me just said I needed to get away from it all. I needed to go away from you, to heal." She looked sad and nodded. She said "I don't want to get legally separated any more, and I don't want a divorce." I was surprised and puzzled, and said "What do you want then?" She smiled and said "I don't know." I just smiled back. Then I remembered a DanceQueen post, and said something playful again, which I best not repeat here. She responded favorably, then she stood up and looked at me, came over to me and kissed me passionately. I kissed her back, and we actually made out in the bar for a few moments. This is the first time we've kissed like this in several years, and truthfully, a lot longer since it felt as good as it did tonight. I didn't react much though, just enjoyed it. She said "We are in a public place you know." I said "I don't let things like that bother me any more."
That was it, we paid our bill and left. She had to cut it short because our oldest daughter had a fever and she didn't want to leave her too long with a babysitter. She asked if we could get together again, and I said ok. We joked and were playful all the way out the door and to her car, where I hesitated, but I didn't kiss her again. I just walked away.
Wow, have I learned a lot over this whole nightmare of a situation. I thought to myself as I walked away "Can I handle her now? Handle her emotional bullying and manipulation?" I don't know. I do know I'm waaaaaay better equipped to handle it now than I was when we got married eleven years ago!
Sounds like a very good interaction. I think you made a good judgement call to leave her wanting more. It warms my heart to hear that you are being nice. Some dogs can learn new tricks!
Great job in being non-committal, friendly, flirtatious, and cautious -- all at the same time. I know it's damned difficult.
I think your wife is at the "conflicted" stage. My advice would be to try a two-pronged approach:
1. Stay firm legally. Do not give up custody, but perhaps offer a "re-visit things after 90 days" thing.
2. Stay NICE -- in fact, err on the side of being WAY nice.
I'm suggesting this for a reason. It should quickly help you ascertain whether your wife's newfound niceness is sincere, or if it's just more manipulation designed to get you to soften your legal stance.
Puppy
P.S.
3. Do NOT, under any circumstances, have sex with her! If you do the above two things, she will either:
a. Work with you nicely, in a spirit of compromise, further showing her changes are sincere;
b. React negatively and immediately, showing you she WASN'T sincere; or
c. Try a different tack, when she sees that this one isn't working. That tack is highly likely to be her trying to seduce you.
There's a reason why your meeting with your wife sounded so familiar to me.
From my personal archives:
7/22 – I awoke this morning to a note from (Wife) by the empty coffee-maker: “(Puppy) – Can we meet at Starbucks this morning for a cup of coffee? (Wife)” I asked her "do we not have any coffee?" and she said "No, I just thought we could talk. Is that okay?"
Her voice was VERY sweet -- a tone I hadn't heard in a long time.
My mind raced, and I immediately cursed myself that it was the FIRST DAY IN TWO WEEKS that I had not awoke early to start my day in prayer and in the Word, and now I was feeling ill-equipped to go have a talk and try to separate truth from b.s. I took a quick shower, and prayed, for wisdom, discernment and not to go all "melty-man" (which I have been known to do). :o)
When we got to Starbucks, she presented me with a five-page handwritten note, which she said she wrote at 5:30am this morning when she couldn't sleep. 3/4ths of it was devoted to pleading with me NOT to go for custody of the boys, or -- as she, D18 and her parents have been phrasing it since Friday -- "take the boys away from me/her."
I told her that I didn't trust her right now, that yes, she HAD been a very good mother, but that lately she had been reckless, deceitful and irresponsible, and that I could not in good conscience allow S14 and S11 to live in that environment. She kept saying that "I would NEVER do anything to harm them!", etc., and even liberally thrown in a bunch of "I swear to GOD!"s.
I remained nonplussed.
I told her that I simply could not trust her, and pointed out to her the times when her behavior and choices HAD been "bad parenting," asking what would have happened if a friend of S14’s at school said 'I saw your mom and some guy who wasn't your dad making out in a car the other day," or the time D18 found that sexual stuff on the computer, and especially the times when she would come home 2 hours later from work, leaving the boys home alone in the middle of the day, so she could go hook up and have sex with (OM). She didn't deny any of those, but kept offering verbal assurances that the affair was over (I said "I wish I could believe that (Wife), but you've lied to me and everyone else you care about in regards to that for so long, that I can't") and that her FUTURE behavior would be that of a model mother.
I made no commitments. I said that I was NOT going to give her the promise she was looking for, and only that I would think about it and pray about it, and told her that I was doubtful, that I hadn't entered into the decision to go for custody lightly, and that I already thought I was acting in what I strongly felt was the best interest of the boys. And I used the example of an abusive husband, who tells his wife "I swear, I haven't had a drink in a WHOLE WEEK, and I swear to God, I will never lift a hand to you again!", and that the only appropriate response to that is "Well, I'm leaving because I no longer trust you, I no longer trust you around our children, and when you've been in A-A and sober for 6 months, and have others who can verify that, then we can sit down and talk."
She's absolutely FREAKING OUT that she may lose the boys, or even that they will have to endure meeting with an evaluator because of all of this. I reminded her that it was HER behavior that caused this, and that I would not even be seeking custody if not for the affair, and the way she deceitfully and stubbornly persisted in it for over 2 months.
I'm getting a lot of pressure from not only (Wife), but D18 and (Wife)'s parents as well. They're positioning this as I'm "taking the boys away from their mother," which annoys me and hurts me, because where is it written that I'm NOT supposed to want them to live with me???
I went to church alone this morning, an then ran to Lowe’s. When I came home, she was coming out of the house and said she was going to keep D18 company at work for about an hour (she tanned!), and then go work out with D20 at the gym on (local street). She stopped at grocery store on her way home, and didn’t get home until about 7pm. I spent the afternoon playing in the pool with the boys and cleaning the turtle tank.
Tonite before dinner, I was grilling outside, and I came in to find her lying on the couch, with the blanket up over her face. At first I thought she was just sleeping, maybe blocking a bright light from her eyes, but then I noticed no lights ON in that room, so I asked her why she had a blanket over her face and I noticed she was crying. I asked her twice what was wrong, she wouldn’t answer me, so I didn’t rescue. She came to the dinner table with eyes all red and swollen and still teary, and started crying a little a couple of times during dinner.
7/23 – I asked her point-blank this morning something I said I had neglected to ask yesterday, and that had been bothering me. “Where did you go when you left the gym suddenly the other night?” Without hesitation, she said “I went by his friend’s house, to talk to him. It was part of what I mentioned to you yesterday about pulling back away from him.” I said “Thank you, I appreciate you giving me an honest answer. So why didn’t you just tell me that the other night, instead of lying and saying you were going to CVS?” “Because,” she said, “I knew you’d think I was doing something over there, and I wasn’t. He called me when I was at the gym, and so I went over to talk to him. Besides, I was only there about five minutes.” Again, I said “Well I at least appreciate you being honest,” and I walked away.
7/24 – (Wife) has been on her absolute best behavior ever since Sunday. I think she’s fearing the custody issue, and trying very hard not to give me any “ammo” to use against her, although I’m hoping that some of this is just good common sense and better decision-making on her part, period. She’s coming right home from work, making sure the boys are well-taken-care-of, and is intent on explaining to me any delays in her schedule. Cellphone usage seems to be down, but the text messaging is still pretty high. She has been extremely kind to me around the house.
Her cellphone bill came in the mail; I need to see if it came with the detailed billing. She also got her past-due credit card statement, which is right back up to $15,000+ total balance, $1,000+ due and $500+ PAST due, and yet she’s made no attempt to make a payment despite having $830 or so sitting in her account, nor has she asked me for my portion.
7/25 – Although the cellphone conversations are way down, she has sent a whopping 95 text messages in the past 24 hours! A quick check with D18 revealed that not more than about 10-12x are from her. Whether it’s romantic/sexual or not, contact with OM is obviously still at a flurry, which leads me to suspect that her niceness is merely short-lived and insincere, and an effort to get me to withdraw my custody request. Ain’t gonna happen. She’s also still hiding her cellphone and her purse, taking them both into the bathroom with her when she showers, etc.
Apparently she has changed her mind about attorneys AGAIN. She now has an appointment on her calendar – and in her planner – for this Friday with an (Jane Bulldog), of Bulldog, Bulldog Smith & Bulldog, of (local town). I’ve never heard of her, there’s VERY little on the web about her, and her own site is under construction although it doesn’t indicate that it is. She doesn’t even seem to be a family law attorney, but rather a criminal attorney. I let (my atty) know, and we’ll see if he knows her, but I can’t believe how all-over-the-map (Wife) is about such an important decision as this.
7/26 – Today should be an interesting day. With (Wife)’s appointment with her attorney set for tomorrow, I’m expecting her to try and pin me down to see if I changed my mind about pursuing custody of the boys. I haven’t, and it should be very instructive to see to what extent my refusal will affect her mood toward me and her stay-at-home ways.
It’s actually been a quiet day. (Wife)’s still acting as nice as can be, and as of 10pm, now that I’m back from taking the boys to the movies, she still hasn’t confronted me about my decision. She did talk to her parents (she called them) for a full 30 minutes this afternoon. While I took the boys to the movies, she worked and then worked out, and then came straight home.
7/27 – (Wife) met with her attorney this afternoon, apparently for 30-45 minutes according to GPS data. It will be interesting to see if/what she brings up this evening. She hasn’t called as of yet (it’s 4:15 right now).
Gave (Wife)’s mom a quick call this morning; it was good to chat. They are talking the boys out for lunch today, which will be good for them to get out of the house a little. They used to take S14 out every Friday when he was little, for (local pizza joint) and Big Lots; it was their little ritual. They've never really done it much with S11 for some reason.
(Wife)'s mom asked me how everything was going, and I said "good -- work is busy," and she said "No, I mean with (Wife)." I said "Fine, fine." She said "I mean, you're TALKING now, right?" I said "Yes, we're talking. We're being nice." then I added, teasing, "Of course, I've ALWAYS been nice, Mom -- she was the one who wouldn't talk to me for two days!" and laughed.
She then said "You know, she said she's not seeing him anymore." I said – very indifferently – “So she says. She's an adult, and that's' her choice, Mom." She said "I asked her, I said 'How's (OM)Y?' and she said 'I don't see him anymore, Mom, I told him my kids come first.'" I just said "That's good -- that's healthy." She added, again for emphasis, "She's spending time with those kids I guess," and I said "I'm glad -- that's good," and left it at that. She did add at one point, I think when I was talking about my girls, that "They love their daddy, that's for sure, (Puppy)," which I took as a sort of an olive branch after her comment on the day that (Wife) was served about "WHAT IF A JUDGE MAKES THE WRONG DECISION?!", which I took exception to.
7/28 – (Wife) is acting totally aloof and distant, and working on her legal papers in secret for some reason. She’s all chatty and sweet with her parents, even her mom, and she’s done an incredible job of getting everyone re-snowed. They’re all in for a rude awakening when they find out she’s still lying to them about (OM) contact. I found her legal documents, and her lawyer is charging her a $3,500 retainer, which (Wife) SIGNED, so I’m wondering where the hell she is going to come up with THAT money. That’s probably why she had an old credit card statement in her purse, and was going thru all of the old mail on the counter today (after leaving it be all summer), as she looks for credit cards with some available balance on them. Little does she know that we have none.
7/29 - It's become painfully obvious what her plan is.
She's being Supermom, full of love, compassion and energy, doing everything for everyBODY (except me, of course), and winning them all over to her side.
Suddenly she gets the boys dessert (formerly, 9 nights out of 10, she'd be passed out on the couch by the time they typically get dessert on a non-school nite, and even on school nites, it was usually my task).
Suddenly SHE takes them for a haircut (I always did).
Suddenly she spends all kinds of conversation and "caring" time with the boys that she never did before, and CERTAINLY didn't do during the midst of the affair.
She's obviously been coached, and is building her case for custody, as she ONLY began doing things after I had her served.
btw, I found a handwritten notes in her Planner that says:
Either someone has agreed to give her a no-interest loan (maybe her attorney? Her father?), or she doesn't know how to calculate interest.
We’re invited to her parents for macaroni today – our whole family. Last nite I got into such a fight with the girls over money that neither one of them wanted to come today. I think I’ll just bow out and let them all go.
7/30 – I came home from work tonite after dropping off grocery money and gas money for the girls and visiting with D18 at her condo. (Wife)’s working, so I made dinner for the boys. The following questions were written by (Wife) and left out on the counter, folded, but on top of a stack of papers:
In HER order (although bold red is mine): “1. Can I continue to see ?
2. Child support/alimony
3. Temp financial help, especially regarding my credit card bill. I cannot pay the 1,500 payment. He is only giving me 1/3.
4. Child custody!! Who gets/do I have to agree to mediation
5. Financial papers -- I do not have, he does. How can I be able to produce these?
6. My engagement ring and diamond & sapphire ring. Can I get these back?
7. What things must I avoid now until divorce is final?
8. Who pays for:
-- health insurance for kids -- braces for S14 -- catholic school tuition “
END OF QUOTE.
I DO NOT HAVE HER DIAMOND AND SAPPHIRE RING, AND I NEVER HAD HER ENGAGEMENT RING!! DID SHE LOSE IT??? I SWEAR I SAW IT IN HER DRAWER.
In any event, it's obvious what her priorities are -- "Can I see (OM)?" And "what about appearances" and "what about the money?"
How sad.
7/31 – Well, I don't think it's going to take very long for me to "outlast" (Wife) and her “good behavior.” Since just late yesterday afternoon, she sent & received NINETY-ONE text messages.
She went to bed fairly early last night, probably so she could go up to her room and text message w/(OM). Since meeting with her attorney four days ago, she has sent & received 420 text messages, or 105 per day, or a whopping 3,000+ per month!!! (her previous pace, even during the affair, was 900-1000/mo.).
Increased contact w/(OM), esp. via text now that the outward relationship has been either back-burned or driven underground, and increased damage control/spin with d20 and D18.
NOT the behavior of a responsible, repentant adult and mother who "gets" what she's done and what she needs to do to improve herself. I fully expect her to not be able to restrain herself, and to re-establish physical contact with (OM) very soon.
7/31 – UPDATE – 5 minutes later! --- ***Well, that didn’t take long! No sooner had I hit "Save" on that one, that I got an Alert saying that (Wife) had left -- and then re-entered -- the gym. So I checked the GPS map, and sure enough she went and parked across the street from the gym briefly. There's nothing over there but an office building parking lot, and she appeared to be BEHIND it at that. This is the fourth or fifth time she has done this in the past two weeks, taking a quick break from work and driving to either a nearby parking lot or a nearby neighborhood and parking her car. If she merely needed to make a phone call in private (say, to her attorney), I’m sure that the gym would let her use a private office, or she could just go to her car where it is parked out in front of the gym and make her call. She’s obviously meeting with (OM).
Future, I obviously didn't yet have the benefit of hindsight, but now that I have gone thru REAL remorse (which came just one month later than the above) and FAUX remorse, I can tell you that they are VERY different.
I could of course be wrong, but I see no reason why, if your wife is genuinely interested in working things out with you, she couldn't wait for 3 months if you're being nice to her the entire way.
Sounds like a very good interaction. I think you made a good judgement call to leave her wanting more. It warms my heart to hear that you are being nice. Some dogs can learn new tricks!
Thanks Lotus. I've always had a "nice guy" tendancy, it's just that now I'm making sure to maintain my own boundaries, and stand up for myself, in a constructive way. In the past when I thought I was being taken advantage of, I'd get moody and randomly leak out anger. An infuriating "nice guy" trait that contributed to my poor marriage.
Great job in being non-committal, friendly, flirtatious, and cautious -- all at the same time. I know it's damned difficult.
Thanks Puppy. It is difficult, but made easier by detachment. I guess I finally got there! Too bad it took me over a year...
I will not voluntarily give up my custody. She keeps throwing out things like "Think about the kids instead of yourself." I reply "The kids need to be with me as much as they are with you." Then she says "I'm their mother and I've been their primary caregiver since birth." Round and round we go.
I may point out to her that if we are on a path that may lead to reconciliation, then we will start spending more time together as a family, and so we'll each get more time with the kids. Maybe that will get her to back off for a while, perhaps 90 days as you suggested Puppy.
I will continue to be nice, and friendly, and flirtatious. A tough balance between letting her know I'm interested, without making her feel she's in the driver's seat. In fact, I want her to know she's NOT in the driver's seat.
Regarding your posts from your past sitch, I do see many similarities, and a few differences. I am worried about manipulation, and I've learned enough to know that sex is a common tool used in these circumstances. In my case, I have the advantage that OM is on the other side of the world. I'm relatively certain the A is over. After she asked me last night if I was seeing anyone, she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone." Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me. Is there any ongoing contact with OM? I don't know. I haven't pursued intel for over a year, and I'm really not interested in doing it now. If my W and I are to take any step forward, I will need her to assure me all contact is severed, forever. Will I insist on transparency? I don't know. Interesting, as I think about it, if she is still contacting OM, I'm less affected by thoughts that it indicates her A isn't fully over, and more affected by how it makes me feel about her, that she's manipulating both sides of this in such an ugly manner.
Unfortunately, I think I will also need her to give up all travel to OM's country altogether. She will strongly resist making that concession, but I'm not sure our M can, nor should need to, survive her ongoing trips there, even with her assurance she's not going to see OM.
If we do reconcile, I suppose at some point I will need to discuss OM with her. Puppy, at what point did those discussions occur in your reconciliation? How long did it take before thoughts of OM started to subside in your mind? Was it brutal at first?
