Should I Tell Her to Move On???

[Glimmerman]

gr8day

I'm sure Coach will clarify that for you, and he's been successful. Let me throw out a couple of things for you and you can match them with what others say, or dismiss them if you disagree.

Coach actually quotes the Stockdale paradox under the signature line. I believe the Stockdale paradox is FOR YOU. You know that you will be fine no matter what the outcome.

I don't believe you need to tell your W what YOU expect. This is part of the letting your actions speak for you. And don't tell her that you will be fine with either outcome, that communicates indecision/indifference to her. Let her hear in your voice and with your actions that you will be fine with either outcome. Make sure you know the difference between letting her know you will be OK, and being aggressive or mean. I would best term this a "confident compassion". You are allowing her to follow you.

I don't know what Coach would say, but I am not so much concerned about who speaks first as much as I am about the questions you ask. Asking questions is VERY effective. If your W is like mine, she relishes the chance to talk, but you need to ask the right questions.

As an example, say you tell her something or answer one of her questions....I would do it briefly and affirming....then ask her how she feels about it. By the way, don't ask her "what she thinks about it", ask her "how she feels about it". By doing this, it helped get my wife from "we're done, no questions asked" to the point of now being in MC to see if we can work things out.

I don't know the advice Coach would give, but a word of caution from my sitch, make sure you know the difference in "leading" and "controlling"....from your W's POV.

[gr8 day 2B alive]

GM thanksfor the insight.

I am confused a bit on the actions and words.

We are going to "talk" at this meeting. I have been showing her my action for the past 8 months and still nothing from her.

I do need to set the boundary about an open M.

Should I ask her how she feels about MC or working on the R


I know I will be fine either way- don't tell her this?

What actions can I show her at this meeting???
other than being mature and confident?

[Glimmerman]

You are correct with the statement you know you will be fine either way. In my opinion, you will convey this, but not actually say it, by just having a good open discussion. Does that make sense? In other words, you will have the "vibe" that you are OK either way....because truthfully you WILL be. That doesn't mean you don't WANT your M to work, it just means you will be OK either way.

You don't need to show her any actions at the meeting unless you've made a major decision, like moving or changing jobs, something like that.

I did not think my W was noticing any of my actions during our separation, but she was. Obviously she doesn't know about every single action, but in my case there were one or two specific ones she was looking for. I did NOT fulfill one of them, and we talked more about it. It was one of those deals where I told her I can't read her mind, and her response was something like "she expected me to know that without telling me". There will be some things like that and they'll make you want to pull your hair out. Just stay relaxed...we got past it.

The MC question is a tough one, so hopefully you'll get some other input on it. I suggested MC when we first separated, and the W said no. We have started MC now and it was her suggestion. Actually, it was the suggestion of her IC, but she agreed and SHE scheduled it.

Perhaps I've asked you this before, but have YOU sought C on your own? As part of "leading", I sought C on my own about a week after our separation. My W was somewhat reluctant to do that, but she did start it several weeks later. I am convinced that she saw I was serious about changing our R and sought it on her own for herself.

On the actions and words stuff, your basically not just sitting down with her and telling her all the wonderful stuff you've been doing to make yourself a better man and husband. When my W and I started talking, MY goal was to know what it was ABOUT me that made her want to end our M. I asked that question directly when we started divorce discussions. Her answers were a little hard to read into at first, but over time as we discussed, her feelings became more clear.

This is the power of the question. Questions create conversation and reveal a LOT.

I agree with setting the boundary about an open M. I have not had to cross that path. Just be careful about being "accusatory" if you are not 100% certain of the facts.

I am no expert, but I've watched my W go from saying "no hope" to scheduling our MC.

[gr8 day 2B alive]

Perhaps I've asked you this before, but have YOU sought C on your own? As part of "leading", I sought C on my own about a week after our separation.

I went to MC 4 times after the bomb was dropped. W went twice with but it was too soon- it wasn't affective. I was still shell shocked and both our minds weren't ready for it.
She said she didn't went to go back.

I then went to IC and did 9 phone sesions with DB coach.

I feel I have gotten all I can from IC. I honestly am a new person with a new outlook on life.

When my W and I started talking, MY goal was to know what it was ABOUT me that made her want to end our M. I asked that question directly when we started divorce discussions. Her answers were a little hard to read into at first, but over time as we discussed, her feelings became more clear

I know why she was unhappy in the M. Part of it was the lack of intimacy.
I believed it was caused by my anxiety and depression. I have address those issues, but since she is not around I can't be intimate with her.

HAs for her hooking up with someone on vacation, I think I am 100% sure of this.
I don't want to bring it up unless our mutual friend says it's OK.

I am confident who I am now. I would like to give W an opportunity to show me something.

We do have two little ones and it's only going to get harder as they get older.

Please provide any more advice to me to think about.
I will be meeting her Monday morning.
Thanks, gr8

[Glimmerman]

gr8day

I've re-read some of your thread to refresh my memory on a few things. I will basically relate what I have done that was successful and unsuccessful to what I've read from your posts.

One thing I noticed as I re-read was something that my W would react the same way to. At one point, you said to your W something like "you're right, let's just get a no fault divorce" and she said something like "Don't use that manipulative crap on me". Well, that really leaves you two choices. Either don't use that manipulative crap on her, or go file.

My point there is don't say something you're not ready and willing to act upon. That's a sample of the actions vs words stuff. That's why in my opinion it's better to ask questions instead of "telling" your spouse stuff.

"Oh, I've changed", "Oh, I do this now instead of that", "Oh, I'm a different person". Your wife hears "blah, blah, blah". Plus, what if you are telling her stuff she really DOESN'T even care about. Then, you've spent all that time and energy telling her all about something that's not productive.

I believe your W is doing two things at once. She is thinking about what she wants to do regarding the M, AND she is doing things to get her mind off it.

I don't really know you, but I agree with your friend who said something like you overanalyze everything. I wouldn't doubt that this is something your W would like to see change in you, but I don't know that for certain.

Just a month ago, you said in a post that you like a challenge, yet you seem to need motivation every other day. You've posted things like "guess we might as well file". Yet, you acknowldege this is a marathon and not a sprint. Part of that may be your analytical personality. Does your W see you as someone who gives up easy and overanalyzes everything?

As you have posted:
She has said she doesn't want to waste 5 more years.
She knows you want to work on the marriage.
She has asked you the question "what has changed?"
Just 6 weeks ago, she talked about the agreement using the term "IF" things don't work out...

This is all good info regarding how you relate to her.

In another post, you said you have not seen an ounce of effort on HER part. YOU WON'T. At least not until she STARTS seeing some of the changes SHE'S looking for. I know you talked about intimacy, but is that all? Intimacy is a big word. My W used it as well, and she wasn't talking about sex in our case (most WAW's will use it). You've got to find out what SHE means by it. It took me a lot of time asking questions to my W to find out what she meant by it....and now I am clear on what she means.

The reason I don't think you are clear on some things is because in a lot of your posts, you ask things like "why would she....."

My W and I did not draw up the agreement you are referring to in your case, but we did take care of some financial/legal stuff right when we separated. I think you're putting to much thought (actually worry) into that. Your W told you clearly that she wants it so that "IF" things don't work out...

My W told me she wanted a divorce, so anytime she said we should do something "in case" or "if", I took that as a sign of indecision or doubt on her part and I DID IT. I did not say anything like "what do you mean by "in case" or "if". I just listened to the words she used and was cooperative. In hindsight, I believe once some of the "paperwork" was started, it gave my W time to actually think about things. I get the impression that's part of what happened with Greek.

I know you aren't going to do it, but you thought about a letter to your W that was going to be about YOUR WANTS AND NEEDS IN MARRIAGE. She does not care right now about YOUR wants and needs in marriage. She cares about HERS. That's why she asks "what's changed".

I did write a short note to my W at one point. Was it pursuing? Probably so, but it did some good. In the note, I did not tell her a single thing I expected from her. All I did was ACKNOWLEDGED HER HURTS. I didn't ask for anything, not even forgiveness. I think I said "I'm sorry" once in the note, but other than that was just a note to put back to her in writing what she had been saying to me. From the note, she KNEW I was listening to HER.

I am not saying you should do that. In my case, I felt it was another way of letting her know I was listening. But it didn't include anything about what I wanted or needed.

The last thing I'm going to say here is kind of a guess or an assumption. It's based on reading back through some of your posts. I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on tv, but your anxiety and insomnia may be some indicators. I'll do it in the form of questions...

Are you a worrier?
Do you portray to your W that you are a worrier?
Do you think that's what she wants in a H?

The reason I ask if you are a worrier is that is the impression I get. The 4 day trip that your W took really stood out to me on that. My W has a few single friends and my W has a few divorced friends. If she told me she was going away for a few days or long weekend with them, I'd say "enjoy your time away". I have full confidence and trust in my W, even though we're separated.

If my W chose to have an A or go beyond what we've agreed are our marital boundaries, we'd cross that path IF and when it comes. Same thing if I did it. One thing I don't do is worry about it right now, because it hasn't happened. My time is much more productively spent on the things that my W has related to me that led to our "lack of intimacy". Does my mind ever wander to what she is doing? Yes, once in a while, but rarely. Truth is, for the most part I know what she is doing.

You know all the things that get posted about being confident, making decisions, being a leader, etc.

By the way, I think you overanalyzed the dinner invitation too. I respect Greek's advice as to what she thought, but I would have accepted. I don't know about your Thanksgiving ordeal. I know your separation was fresh at that time, but do you think YOUR worry about the situation caused any of the stress?

Again, this is my opinion, but I think the "action" your W might notice most from you is if you can tone down your worrying. If you have the opportunity to be around your W (like the dinner or something similar) and you can begin to show her that you are changing in this area, it might start to do some good. It will definitely help you.

I wrote a dang novel. Just my thoughts....

[gr8 day 2B alive]

Gm, thank for the detailed analysis of my pst few months.

Now I feel bad about contacting OW on the dating site. I haven't met with anyone yet but I am in friendly emails with someone.

My W knows I don't give up and she also knows I'm a gracious loser. I feel if I give it my all then I have nothing to be ashamed about. I am at that point, I have given my all and will give her what she wants and thats to meet to discus agreement.
I will ask her questions and listen to her replies.

I will also tell her I have been on the dating site. I have always been honest with her. Maybe if I open up to her about this info, she will open up about her episode.

I have a long weekend to pull my thoughts together.

I will lead, be confident and listen.

[Glimmerman]

Don't feel bad about the dating website...and don't overanalyze your decision there.

One of the things about a message board like this is you WILL get advice from both sides of the coin. Some will tell you that if your W walks out that GAL includes dating or finding someone else. Others will tell you that's not the way to go. You must decide for yourself.

You can tell her you were on dating website if you like, but I'm not sure that's the big issue here. If your W knows you want to reconcile and she knows YOU.

Again, I wonder if your W doesn't view you as a big worrier and that has worn her down. Can you start to show her you are changing in this area? Can you change in this area? Am I way off base?

[gr8 day 2B alive]

Again, I wonder if your W doesn't view you as a big worrier and that has worn her down. Can you start to show her you are changing in this area? Can you change in this area? Am I way off base?

I know I used to worry about a lot of things. I now have a handle on that problem. Through my self help readings I've learned not to worry about the things you can't control.

Thanks Gm.

[Vulcanized]

Now I feel bad about contacting OW on the dating site. I haven't met with anyone yet but I am in friendly emails with someone.

Take things as slow as you need to. There is nothing wrong w/being friendly w/AW. But should things progress further, meeting in person, etc, then you should be honest w/your date.

I will also tell her I have been on the dating site. I have always been honest with her. Maybe if I open up to her about this info, she will open up about her episode.

No, no, no. Telling W, under the guise of being 'honest' seems like a bad idea to me. To me, it comes across as weak, needy and manipulative. If you are on the site b/c you actively want to date, or see what's available, then you are doing it for the right reason. If you are doing it as a way to convey to W that you are moving on, you take the power out of the action by telling her about it. It seems to cement W's position that you will wait around for her as long as she wants.

If you have to announce that you are moving on, then you really aren't. You move forward by making the best decisions for you, w/o factoring W into the equation. I mean this in ways that do not concern your kids.

If your w has OM, or is having A, then it is safe to assume that you don't factor into her decision making process. Maintaining a healthy emotional distance, making choices based on your needs and wants is the way to go. You will not regain your W's respect by telling her that you are dating. You will get her attention by letting her find out, on her own, that you are dating.

I will lead, be confident and listen.

Good. Let your W do 90% of the talking. Be calm, cool, collected. If your W asks what you are up to, be vague, be brief, and get her back to talking about herself.

Good luck!

[gr8 day 2B alive]

RNM-

You will get her attention by letting her find out, on her own, that you are dating.

Got it. No talk about moving on my actions already said that to her b/c her friend saw me on the site.

I have nothing to be ashamed of by going on the site. There are a lot a ways to meet people. What's the difference between chat on line through email and talkingto someone at a bar?
I have no chance on "hooking up" on line that night where as she has and did.

You meet someone in Florida and you hook up with them? I think she is still insecure with her looks. She tells mutual friend she still has it. I hope hope she didn't get anything;)

cool as a cucumber....