New Thread...and a question.

[flowmom]

It is hard not to hope that the children will somehow bring them back to you...It likely will NOT be the reason...moreimportantly, you do NOT want them to be the reason he comes back to you. YOU want to be the reason he comes back, not you mommy skills.

I totally agree, and I think the children actually muddy the issue of our M, as they have been the last 6 years, the little rascals

[libbyasking]

Jack

Thanks for your clarification on being a 'doormat'. It has been one of my biggest worries that I would become a doormat to H antics.

I now see that the position I stand on is part of the evolving journey for both me and my H and being seen by others as a doormat is not a major issue.

[seeking answers]

Jack,

Yes, thank you for this thread. I, too, worried about the doormat issue as a lot of folks view what I am doing as me being a doormat. My attitude is that it is my life and I'm trying to save my M. What you think about me is none of my business.

[C-Bart]

Jack,

Yes, thank you for this thread. I, too, worried about the doormat issue as a lot of folks view what I am doing as me being a doormat. My attitude is that it is my life and I'm trying to save my M. What you think about me is none of my business.

Make sure you don't take this to far. You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences. A person can only be a doormat for so long and can only tolerate so much.

Also don't use this as an excuse for not moving forward with your own life. In other words if you want to be a doormat be one in your spare time.

[Lostforwords]

All,

You are only a doormat if you think you are....if you think you are strong and taking the high road for what YOU stand for....then you are just that...strong.

It is just a mind set.....are you strong or are you a doormat?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Jack,

Awesome thread -- and a great discussion.

To me, this topic always comes down to two things, that I look for first when I try to help a newbie:

1) Are THEY happy and confident with the approach they've taken? Some people have chosen "standing" for their marriage as a very definite strategy, they are strong in that stance, I find more often than not these are people of FAITH, and they're just venting now and again or looking for some other specific advice. But they are CONFIDENT that their patience in standing is part of their overall plan, and they're still okay emotionally and feeling like they can continue that for awhile.

2) Are they laying out -- and do they know how to enforce -- healthy BOUNDARIES? There's nothing "doormat-ish" if the standing spouse says "these are my three or four or five Boundaries of Personal Integrity, and I'm quite prepared to enforce them." These might be "no contacting OM/OW from inside our home," or "Please don't discuss OM/OW in front of me, as if I'm okay with all of this," or "we need to be in ongoing marriage counseling together for me to remain in this marriage," -- or whatever.

I usually jump in and shake people and exhort them -- especially men -- to "man up" when I see that they are timid, and totally unsure, and all over the map in their approach, and THEY THEMSELVES don't see it working (and nor from their posts does it look to anyone else like it is). So I challenge them, and if they are confident in what they are doing, and seem at peace with it, then I think that's fine, and certainly not "being a doormat."

Puppy

[MHL]

Puppy,
Glad to hear you say this, I admire your advice to people on these boards, it is wise and I only wish I had someone like you advising me in the days following the discovery of my W's A.

I think every sitch is different and the people involved can make either approach right or wrong depending on the sitch and the personallity of the WAS and/or LBS.

I agree that you should not be "all over the map" you either have the patience and strength to endure the actions of the WAS or you have the courage and strength to enforce "tough love".

Since we are in the MLC forum, I think this is especially true when dealing with the MLCer.

[DestinyUnknown]

Thank you Jack for the posting. I was feeling like I was a doormat for my H's antics and navigated between - "I don't have to take this" to "I want to be with H". I took the advice of individuals on this board to keep family out of my business.

They say I was allowing myself to be a doormat and maybe I saw it that way until Jack's posting. But I have some very clear goals to REALLY work on myself and hopefully that will bring about change and potential reconciliation.

Thanks again for the posting.

[fisherman]

Good Stuff!!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Thank you all for the replies and your insights.

I have one direct reply to C-Bart.

Make sure you don't take this to far. You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences. A person can only be a doormat for so long and can only tolerate so much.

Too far is relative. And by too far, I think you mean too submissive, and too long.

What is too long? That is up to the individual. 6 months or 6 years? Come a time when everyone moves on...hopefully. But I do not think it up to anyone here to determine that for someone else.

This is something I struggle with; some people I just see "wallowing".

Now if that person was GALing and had grown, was improving themselves enjoying life...and just 'waiting'. That would be AWESOME.

Just as it AWESOME when someone decides that they have moved past trying to outwait the MLC...as long as they have grown.

Just as it is AWESOME when the MLC comes out of their hell.

What is far from awesome is seeing the LBS 'pine away', losing this time to pity, or bitterness, regardless of the MLC outcome. The repition of bad choices and living in the past.

Seeing THAT sukcs.

We are here to support all the LBSers here and their 'good' choices...'good' is also relative. I view it as personal growth and relationship knowledge.

Enough people, family and friends will impose their own warped timeline...a timeline many of them would not follow in reversed roles. We should not.

A person who comes here and 'wastes' years of thier life by becoming bitter and pitiful...yes...you know what? THEY chose to WASTE those years. THEM. Not their MLC spouse. And I have more sympathy for the MLC than that LBSer. Because the LBSer HAD A CHOICE.

You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences.

Until the MLCer starts coming around...boundaries and consequences are a tricky road. Involving children? Yes I agree whole heartedly. Absolutley, however if you are talking about:
"I forbid you from seeing the OM, or I will divorce your cheating butt!"

Well...you need to follow through with those divorce papers because they are NOT going to listen. And IF you do not follow through...then you're bark has NO bite. And you might as well throw all your credibility out the window.

Until the MLC starts showing positive and real signs of coming back...boundaries and consquences hurt you and what you think you want more than they do them. You are pushing them and presuring them to assuage your own desires regarding them in a relationship role they have shown you...they currently do not want.

Also don't use this as an excuse for not moving forward with your own life. In other words if you want to be a doormat be one in your spare time.

Good point...with the exception of suggesting it is ok to be a doormat.


My answers, from my perspective go like this.
I have answered some in part above.

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

Accepting that your spouse is having an affair? Going about YOUR life while someone is sleeping...and lets be real, sleeping is a really innocent term...with your spouse? 'Letting' your spouse be up out all night while you take care of the family and bills and house?

You must be a doormat right?

No. But this isn't normal behavior. In fact it is so abnormal it is not only hard to do...it is hard for anyone to understand.

Your goal is to outlast their MLC. Their confusion and their selfishness. You're not going to get them to stop, and if you try you usually hasten them along and further into their selfishness and tunnel. You demand from them and they run away from your demands, ignore them or decide they are better off without you controlling them.

You accept these bad behaviours with an eye on your prize, you came to Divorce Busting for a reason. It was to stop your divorce...it isn't called...say Affair Busting. So get used to the idea of getting used to bad behaviours.

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

For you, to protect yourself from MANY things, many mistakes you can make, to protect yourself from them and their anger, from your resposne to their bad choices, and your bad reactions. To protect the imagine of the 'good' you in their mind when they think about you...and guess what? They do think about you. You want them to have 'good' pictures in their head when they do.


My thoughts...my answers, not better or worse than any others, just mine.

And again thank you all for your insights.

Please keep posting : )