my W doesn't regret her affair

[Onthemountaintop]

As usual, I'm struggling to resolve all this stuff in my head. I need to forgive myself for how I failed my marriage.

Hi Future. Why do you need forgiveness – she’s the one who had the affair and has yet to close that door completely with a slam! You may have been a ‘bad’ H, or Ok, or good, or excellent, but she made a choice that involved sex and much more.

I eventually need to forgive her for how she failed, for my own peace, if nothing else.

Do you? Maybe you need to decide if you are a person that can handle never knowing 100% that your wife would never break your trust in this way again. Forgive her for her anger, toying with the kids’ emotions, not giving you a drink while giving it to your kids – yes, makes sense to forgive or forget. But can you trust her as your wife. If not, move on unless/until you decide that you can. You made it clear you do not want to be her backup, so don’t be.

[25yearsmlc]

I think you've done remarkably well future. Did you do all things perfectly? No, so welcome to the club of humanity. This is a LONG post but I'm on a roll and didn't post to you for so long as you were getting great advice/still are. But as to a big issue I struggled with...FORGIVENESS and what it means...and does NOT mean....

As for forgiveness, as I understand it, yes, DO IT. For you. The anger at the injustices you've endured, the things done to you, still have to be let go of or the anger will consume you, not her.. The pain and deep hurt you feel at times are too much to carry, let alone if you truly want detachment and GAL to work. So you let go of it, for you. The WAS does not even need to know you forgave them. I found I had to turn over my pain and anger over to God, b/c I didn't know how to let it go in another way. (Marianne WIlliamson wrote about this in her book "Return to Love" --a tad new age for some folks but her exercises on forgiveness and letting go, are SO good. (OR at least they were good for me. I never saw forgivness growing up in my parent's home. I also felt my h didn't "deserve" forgiveness and at some level, I worried that if I forgave him, he would not "Get" how much pain he had caused and worse still, he might do it again IF I forgave him...little did I know then, that NOT forgiving him
made me look, well, "unforgiving" and plus, it doesn't give the WAS/ straying spouse any room to maneuver in, or anything to do to redeem themselves. I didn't know how to do it but I remembered wasting my junior yr of high school pining for a boy who cheated on me. HE didn't know I was pining, he was not "hurt" by MY PAIN...he was partying having a blast...I was a fool to not let go. So as an adult, I knew I needed some tools for actually doing this forgiving/letting go deal. So I did the exercises in the book, before my h would likely call, to cope with the conversations and to be fully present for our children, & I would CALM down, no obsessing and NO Losing it and turning it ino then, I would detach. Joined groups, GAL, etc....letting go is truly for you. At least primarily...now there's a second part to that comment and it is not mandatory like the first one is, imho...but stilllllll

This "2nd part" is what to do, if you actually would want a recon with your w - but simply think it's too little too late and even if you are ready to move on and end the M totally in your mind....as my DB coach told me, "Keep the Road Home Paved and Smooth..." Some LBSers make it too hard on purpose. They want to punish; they want to show them, they want to be the WAS that never comes back so they are never rejected again. Is it natural? Yes. Is it healthy? Well, No. If you cannot reconcile with your x, WE GET IT...I'm just saying don't drag it out pretending you can, or that your list of requirements is something they even what to hear early on. I think you'fe nere Be on your way and open to changes in you and her and see wh

As someone with 2 family members who div and remarried their exes, (years later- I must add), I can say I have witnessed it. It happens. Two couples divorced and they did indeed remarry. And Both couples were happier the 2nd time around! 13 years now my cousin and his wife have been remarried, (they have a son and daughter) and they both changed after the divorce. Eventually became friends again, over time, since they had a kid together. I know they dated others for awhile, but as I recall, there was anger at the start. Then pain....then some hopelessness then civility at kids' functions, then friendship, then banter, then flirting and then...dating and recommiting. Whole thing took 8 years to get back to the vows (they more or less reconciled earlier but it wasn't official until 8 full years passed...)

In contrast, My uncle and aunt divorced (I think SHE filed.) and he pursued her for awhile. She liked the attention but didn't think things would work out for them down the road, e.g., "too much water under the bridge", he wouldn't change or he'd never let her forget how much she hurt him, too many people know, etc.... But at least she felt safe around him at famiy events. No scenes, etc. One day after 5 years of being div, my uncle simply asked her if she was "happier now"? And she said "not really" and he said "what if we try again, and do things differently this time?" And she agreed....and it worked. And when my uncle died 3 years back, his wife and kids were at his bedside as they should have been but if they'd stayed divorced, their kids would never have seen a love renewed, forgiveness given, hurts let go of, and recommitment. It's a legacy that they carry with them, along with what divorce feels like... Sometimes you choose between being "happy" or being "right"...

I think one huge reason some couples don't get back together even when the WAS wants to, is b/c the WAS assumes the LBSer will make it too hard on them to return, (maybe b/c the LBSer told them never to come back, etc) or maybe b/c they think that they'll never live it down, or the LBSer will make them jump through hoops for so long only to still not find the WAS sufficiently repentant or trustworthy, etc, and the WAS will feel distrusted, still lacking and that creates a cycle...AND let's face it, no one's hands are completely clean in these things. How many of we women KNEW our M's and our H's were getting o still NOT trusting and still lacking. Sure, sometimes this reflects laziness on the part of the WAS who wants it to be easy ("hey I SAID I was sorry...") and that the WASer is NOT worth a retry. Certainly that can be true...still, there's another possibility. What about the WAS who wants back in but either b/c the LBSer is terrified so much that they make a frickin' mountain to climb that no one can climb, b/c really they are simply too afraid to trust again OR the LBser SAYS they want to try and trust again but the damn anger is still there and the desire to punish some more and "Teach a lesson" and prove this and that, and blah blah blah, holding the sword of Damacles over the WAS's head...well I think a lot of m's fail b/c in the end, the LBSer cannot or will not forgive. And so, the M fails and at least part of that is the LBSer's fault. Imagine a WAS who does NOT have an A, but leaves in part for good reasons--Ie. the LBSer was mistreating them, badly. So the WAS leaves and the LBSer takes on the role of victim b/c they say they want it to work...who really is the one ending the m then? The one who caused the spouse to leave, or what?

No hard and fast rules at times. WE try to be honest with ourselves and each other and come here for feedback...I think you've done well. I would not trust your w taking the kids overseas in a million years unless I knew the country she was taking them to had a treaty signed with us enforcing child custody agreements. She'll rationalize what she wants and say "kids are resilient" and "you'll be fine, move on" etc as that is the modern MC mantras....

But I don't know your wife. Did you see that Brazilian man in the news, who lost his son for 5 years after his ex w kidnapped the boy for "a vacation back home" and then she died, leaving their son with her new h...he spent a fortune and was a L himself..and I know my sil's first h took their d3 d's overseas and hid them in a refugee camp for 18 months...nice. She had to petition Congress and go on Larry King to lobby for a change in the law and pressure the family to reveal their whereabouts, to get her girls back. When she got them...they were not the same and now 8 years have passed and they're kind of...okay. It was a big deal...nightmare. So be careful...your w may or may not have been considering a comback to the m. What stopped her? Your stance?

I don't recall the details of your requests but I assume you wanted transparency and some MC, other than her own, and no contact with om? Sounds like The "basics" of an LBSer who's WAS had an A, right?

No excessive snooping or stalking, but she had to meet the basics of re-establishing trust and in return, you'd promise not to throw this in her face the rest of your m whenver you fought, and not to hold it against her or assume you should get your way in other unrelated matters b/c hell, she' "owes you"...?? That's pretty cool.

You nailed it on the head awhile back when you admitted being wrong to do something to punish her. "Teaching her life's lessons" and "punishing" or getting revenge, is SO NOT your job...life will do that, and God. But you know this now. I think standing consistently firmly but keeping the road home paved and smooth, is the path to take. Even to the finish line and beyond...

What does your wife need to know? That m to you in the future, would not be a repeat of the m you had. On your end, you'd do some things differenly if you had them to do over....and on HER end, she'd handle things a hell of a lot better and VERY differently than she did before. I personally think she KNOWS she's the common denominator is a couple R/M's now and that she did not handle the first 2 M's well. SHE KNOWS THIS and as much as she wants to blame you...she also knows you're a good guy. She has some crap to work out on her end. Should you wait? No! GAL!!

But should you assume she's always having great sex with OM's & they always amuse her, laughing hard at her wit and she's laughing hard b/c they are all so darn hilarious and great in bed, all the time, except when she does not want it, and her OM's make a ton of money they like spending on her and they have the same interests...(OR NOT...no, he's foreign and interesting and exotic and NO ONE can compete with that...for awhile. But when "Guido" doesn't get her jokes, or says some anti_American thing, or is smug or moody like those guys get...she'll have to wonder what it is about her that cannot sustain a long term intimate relationship...too bad for her. The depth of her love is limited b/c she can only last so long. If that remains true, you are indeed better off finding a woman who can love and be loved, for life....

But let go of the anger and forgive her for all her omissions and commissions, for her searching externally for that which she should have found inside, and forgive yourself for lashing out now and then, or for the honest mistakes you made in the M, vowing not to repeat them in your next R with whomever....

God Bless, you've handled yourself so well, articulately, honestly and with growth. That's all we can aim for, that we get better, not bitter. You know? Do your best to know His will and to follow it, with love in your heart. God takes care of the rest, so leave those results up to HIM...and GAL, letting the past go.

(Speaking of going, I'm rambling b/c I'm tired and started this post an hour ago... SO, on that note, )...

((( hugs)))

j-

[musclegal]

Wow 25yrs! That is a really good lesson/summary for all of us! Thanks for posting!

[futureunknown]

Thanks 25yearsmlc! I've been away on work travel, and trying to GAL, so I haven't been watching the board quite as much. Finally getting back to it.

As for forgiveness, as I understand it, yes, DO IT. For you. The anger at the injustices you've endured, the things done to you, still have to be let go of or the anger will consume you, not her.. The pain and deep hurt you feel at times are too much to carry, let alone if you truly want detachment and GAL to work. So you let go of it, for you. The WAS does not even need to know you forgave them.

You know, I thought I was doing so much better when she was mired in her A, and the thought of reconciliation was far away. I felt so understanding, so willing to forgive, and I thought it was sincere, but when she started making a move back toward me, I was shocked how my anger roared back. From what I've read, it's a normal reaction. That she was so unwilling to allow me my anger warned me that she wasn't truly wanting to reconcile, but rather just wanted a safe backup plan.

I also felt my h didn't "deserve" forgiveness and at some level, I worried that if I forgave him, he would not "Get" how much pain he had caused and worse still, he might do it again IF I forgave him...little did I know then, that NOT forgiving him
made me look, well, "unforgiving" and plus, it doesn't give the WAS/ straying spouse any room to maneuver in, or anything to do to redeem themselves.

That exactly describes how I feel. I did try to treat my W with forgiveness earlier last year, and I kept running into this thing inside me that fought against it, saying "She doesn't deserve it! She has to know what she did! She has to feel how much she hurt me!" Whenever that part won out, my W's moves toward me stopped, and she went further away. She has commented how she sees me oscillating back and forth between kindness and understanding, and anger. I tried to give her plenty of room to maneuver in, and I gave her a year of time. As far as I can tell, she doesn't think she needs any redeeming, although I wonder if that's true deep down.

As someone with 2 family members who div and remarried their exes, (years later- I must add), I can say I have witnessed it. It happens. Two couples divorced and they did indeed remarry. And Both couples were happier the 2nd time around! 13 years now my cousin and his wife have been remarried, (they have a son and daughter) and they both changed after the divorce. Eventually became friends again, over time, since they had a kid together. I know they dated others for awhile, but as I recall, there was anger at the start. Then pain....then some hopelessness then civility at kids' functions, then friendship, then banter, then flirting and then...dating and recommiting. Whole thing took 8 years to get back to the vows (they more or less reconciled earlier but it wasn't official until 8 full years passed...)

If you look past all my posts over the last year, you'll see the civility has never left, the friendship is still there, and we still banter, flirt, and even dated a little. But it was all overshadowed by her ongoing A. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations about how she would react to me after her A ended (current state unknown). Maybe it does mean our future is truly unknown, but I have to look at it in the long term, and live for now knowing our M is over.

I think one huge reason some couples don't get back together even when the WAS wants to, is b/c the WAS assumes the LBSer will make it too hard on them to return, (maybe b/c the LBSer told them never to come back, etc) or maybe b/c they think that they'll never live it down, or the LBSer will make them jump through hoops for so long only to still not find the WAS sufficiently repentant or trustworthy, etc, and the WAS will feel distrusted, still lacking and that creates a cycle...AND let's face it, no one's hands are completely clean in these things. How many of we women KNEW our M's and our H's were getting o still NOT trusting and still lacking. Sure, sometimes this reflects laziness on the part of the WAS who wants it to be easy ("hey I SAID I was sorry...") and that the WASer is NOT worth a retry. Certainly that can be true...still, there's another possibility. What about the WAS who wants back in but either b/c the LBSer is terrified so much that they make a frickin' mountain to climb that no one can climb, b/c really they are simply too afraid to trust again OR the LBser SAYS they want to try and trust again but the damn anger is still there and the desire to punish some more and "Teach a lesson" and prove this and that, and blah blah blah, holding the sword of Damacles over the WAS's head...well I think a lot of m's fail b/c in the end, the LBSer cannot or will not forgive. And so, the M fails and at least part of that is the LBSer's fault. Imagine a WAS who does NOT have an A, but leaves in part for good reasons--Ie. the LBSer was mistreating them, badly. So the WAS leaves and the LBSer takes on the role of victim b/c they say they want it to work...who really is the one ending the m then? The one who caused the spouse to leave, or what?

This is a definite possiblity in my situation, and regardless of how truthful she is being, my W is already throwing out judgements that I will "never let it go" and "always hold it over her". Funny reading your post, as my W has already given me your exact line "Hey, I said I was sorry", followed by the standard "What more do you want?" And yes, my hands are nowhere near clean. I've owned my failings to my W, as honestly as I could. I poured my heart out to her, a risky move, but she accepted everything I said with compassion and even love. We were trying to navigate an impossible minefield, but I was doing 90% of the work, and I needed more from her if I was going to continue.

No hard and fast rules at times. WE try to be honest with ourselves and each other and come here for feedback...I think you've done well. I would not trust your w taking the kids overseas in a million years unless I knew the country she was taking them to had a treaty signed with us enforcing child custody agreements. She'll rationalize what she wants and say "kids are resilient" and "you'll be fine, move on" etc as that is the modern MC mantras....

But I don't know your wife. Did you see that Brazilian man in the news, who lost his son for 5 years after his ex w kidnapped the boy for "a vacation back home" and then she died, leaving their son with her new h...he spent a fortune and was a L himself..and I know my sil's first h took their d3 d's overseas and hid them in a refugee camp for 18 months...nice. She had to petition Congress and go on Larry King to lobby for a change in the law and pressure the family to reveal their whereabouts, to get her girls back. When she got them...they were not the same and now 8 years have passed and they're kind of...okay. It was a big deal...nightmare. So be careful...your w may or may not have been considering a comback to the m. What stopped her? Your stance?

I hate that I have to be so distrustful, but I trusted her completely, and she shattered that trust. She lied to me, used me, and manipulated me in a very ugly way. No matter what she says, I KNOW if she gets in her head that her life happiness necessiates her moving to OM's country, she will try to make it happen, and she will not leave the kids behind. So I have to maintain my hard stance that the kids don't leave the country. Signed treaties don't impress me, as Brazil was part of the Haig Convention, and should have immediately honored the American father's rights, but yet it was clogged in the courts for five years. That will NEVER be me, and the way I guarantee that is to never let them leave the country.

My W contends that MY behavior prevented her from returning to the M, but I don't buy it for a minute. She liked the idea of returning, but only on her terms, and her timetable, if at all. No way. That's no foundation for reconciliation. Maybe I should have been more patient, but the fact that she's running right back to OM's country speaks volumes about her true desire to reconcile.

I don't recall the details of your requests but I assume you wanted transparency and some MC, other than her own, and no contact with om? Sounds like The "basics" of an LBSer who's WAS had an A, right?

No excessive snooping or stalking, but she had to meet the basics of re-establishing trust and in return, you'd promise not to throw this in her face the rest of your m whenver you fought, and not to hold it against her or assume you should get your way in other unrelated matters b/c hell, she' "owes you"...?? That's pretty cool.

We never got to the point of requests from me. I had one request, that she end her A, and she finally, apparently did so, but with anger and resentment. She gave me no opening for re-establishing trust. She said "Don't think this means anything to our marriage. We're still living separate lives. You can date if you want." After hanging in for a year, that was so unsatisfying, and made me feel completely disrespected, and that she was just trying to delay the painful process of legal separation until after the holidays. Something inside me reared up and said "Screw that!"

You nailed it on the head awhile back when you admitted being wrong to do something to punish her. "Teaching her life's lessons" and "punishing" or getting revenge, is SO NOT your job...life will do that, and God. But you know this now. I think standing consistently firmly but keeping the road home paved and smooth, is the path to take. Even to the finish line and beyond...

I am (and she is) also concerned about my anger and desire to punish. When we are tyring to negotiate our legal separation, and I'm being particularly tough on an issue, she asks "Are you just trying to punish me?"

What does your wife need to know? That m to you in the future, would not be a repeat of the m you had. On your end, you'd do some things differenly if you had them to do over....and on HER end, she'd handle things a hell of a lot better and VERY differently than she did before. I personally think she KNOWS she's the common denominator is a couple R/M's now and that she did not handle the first 2 M's well. SHE KNOWS THIS and as much as she wants to blame you...she also knows you're a good guy. She has some crap to work out on her end. Should you wait? No! GAL!!

But should you assume she's always having great sex with OM's & they always amuse her, laughing hard at her wit and she's laughing hard b/c they are all so darn hilarious and great in bed, all the time, except when she does not want it, and her OM's make a ton of money they like spending on her and they have the same interests...(OR NOT...no, he's foreign and interesting and exotic and NO ONE can compete with that...for awhile. But when "Guido" doesn't get her jokes, or says some anti_American thing, or is smug or moody like those guys get...she'll have to wonder what it is about her that cannot sustain a long term intimate relationship...too bad for her. The depth of her love is limited b/c she can only last so long. If that remains true, you are indeed better off finding a woman who can love and be loved, for life....

I think my W does see me quite differently now. I have no doubt she knows I will be different in my next R. And yes, I think deep down she knows she has a problem with long term R's. She is troubled by guilt over how she left both her M's.

But let go of the anger and forgive her for all her omissions and commissions, for her searching externally for that which she should have found inside, and forgive yourself for lashing out now and then, or for the honest mistakes you made in the M, vowing not to repeat them in your next R with whomever....

I am trying to let go of my anger. As I've said countless times here, if it was just her and me I'd be so much better. It's seeing my kids suffer that keeps my anger going. IMO, there is no reason those kids have to endure a childhood from a broken home. They see us joking and laughing, and every time immediately say "Hey! You're not fighting! You shouldn't be separated!"

God Bless, you've handled yourself so well, articulately, honestly and with growth. That's all we can aim for, that we get better, not bitter. You know? Do your best to know His will and to follow it, with love in your heart. God takes care of the rest, so leave those results up to HIM...and GAL, letting the past go.

Thank you so much for your words and advice. I will take it to heart.

[futureunknown]

My W still does things to make me wonder. Not so much about whether she wants to "come back", as that's really off the table now, certainly in the near term. The question is, what is our future? Will we have one?

She had to drop off a couple things for the kids last weekend. She picks Sunday at 6pm, right before the Superbowl starts. I'm home with the kids, got the pre-game on the big screen. I've got food and snacks all laid out and the kids are excited about a fun evening. I usually have a Superbowl party, but I had just returned from a week away on business, and I didn't want to deal with a party.

So my W comes in and gives me the things for the kids. My son comes running out and gives her a hug, and of course asks "Can you stay to watch the Superbowl?!" She looks at me and says "If Daddy says it's ok." My son gives me his big hopeful look, and I say "You can hang out for a while if you want." She perks up, smiles, and asks "Got any beer?" I said "Sure."

We had a nice time eating and watching the game. The kids were thrilled to have us all together. After the initial awkwardness waned, she starts asking me about my life, like she always does, and I start joking around with her a little bit. My oldest daughter immediately notes our friendliness and says we shouldn't be separated. My W says "I know it's confusing, isn't it?"

All this is standard cake eating for her, but she said something odd that maybe gave me a little visibility into how she perceives things between us. The kids wanted to show her the Wii dancing game, so we put it on. After the kids danced a couple songs, I offered her a controller and asked if she wanted to give it a try. She said in a half joking, half sad manner "No way. I'm not going to do it the first time in front of you and give you even more evidence that I'm a fool." I didn't say anything in response, but it made me a little sad. I've picked up that vibe before, when she denegrates herself in front of me. I don't know what to do with it. If I gave her some standard "Oh, I don't think you're foolish", she'll immediately perceive that as insincere, as she knows I do think she is being selfish and foolish. This is where Coach excels here. What would he say in response?

In what is an enormous 180 for me, I kept the controller and danced with the kids. She didn't say anything, but after I did, laughing and joking with the kids, I offered the contoller again and said "Come on. Give it a try." She took the controller this time and danced with the kids, having a great time. She got top score in her first dance, and I said "See, you're a natural." She said "I have got to get this game!"

She stayed through the first half of the Superbowl, then told the kids she had to go. They objected, but she said "This is your time with Daddy, and I have work to do at home." She put on her coat, said her goodbyes to the kids. I made no move toward her, I just said "Goodbye, W" from across the room, and she left.

Another whirlwind visit into my home. Funny, it's the home she dramatically declared she would never go back into a couple months ago.

[Onthemountaintop]

Another whirlwind visit into my home. Funny, it's the home she dramatically declared she would never go back into a couple months ago.

Maybe she's seeing that you are a great catch for her~

[futureunknown]

Maybe she's seeing that you are a great catch for her~

I don't know about that, but I do see that she doesn't want to lose me entirely.

[musclegal]

Future, if you can have some of that "family" time and not have it mess too much with your head, its really great. Its great for the kids and really probably good for you both in the long run--but again, if you can do it without it messing with your head. A friendship could lead to something between you in the future, or, at the very least, a friendship is better than an "enemyship" where the mom of your kids is concerned.
Hope you can do it without it setting you back. If you find that it does set you back, its time to pull out those boundaries again!

[flowmom]

I agree with musclegal. For children, being with both of their parents at the same time makes the world right.

[futureunknown]

I know you're right musclegal, but I've been so trained to spot and disallow cake eating that it doesn't feel right when we're all together. It was her choice to break up this family, and now she wants family time. I don't want a friendship or enemyship with her. I want a "nothingship" with her. Seeing her isn't affecting me the way it used to, but I'm definitely happiest when I can go days without any exposure to her at all. And I'm a better father when I'm happy.

It's very sad for the kids, and frustating for me, especially since she and I get along so well.