Back here, for the second time... #69

[Kalni]

The councelor said she could see we had no contact. She said "no eye contact, no touching, smiling, even if you are sitting on the same couch. Is there a problem with contact, physical or other?". I said yes, H said yes. She asked when was the last time we felt like having contact with each other. H spoke and said when he went to the hospital with the kidney pains, he said "I wanted Maria to be with me, come to me, I knew it wasnt serious, but I wanted her there badly". I said I felt that when he saw me and hugged me and kissed my hands, and held on tight, his look, everything was very emotional. I told them that was the moment I started thinkng that maybe there was a chance after all.

She turned to H asked ever since? He said no. He doesnt want to. He said he feels like I am "fire" and will burn him. He said even when I am calm, he thinks I am ready to blow up, with no warning. Which is completely unfair and wrong. Even when I am upset, physical touch is my LL, it soothes me.I told him that, I told him if he was brave enough to risk, he would be pleasantly surprised...

At one point he was explaining vividly how difficult it is for him to handle me when I am mad, upset and/or sad. He went on and on saying he couldnt, he didnt want to, he wasnt able to "deal with all that emotion". My response wasnt very sensitive "well then, there we have it!! I need a man that CAN/and is willing "handle" me and my emotions, I dont want someone who keeps running to hide!". Silence after that...

Lack of time was discussed heavily Ali. I stated that my vision and desire didnt not include being thankful for crumbs (sp?). He went on and on about how it isnt practically possible, how his dad did the same while my parents didnt, how he thinks it is normal. I put my foot down in a sense that didnt try to accommodate him. I stated again, he needs to figure out what he wants, what kind of husband, father, companion does he want to become. A "guest star" or a present role model and husband? He said he didnt know what to do.

She suggested he thinks what is more important to him, she said "what would be more devastating to lose, your one job, or your family, and/or Maria?". He didnt answer that. He went on and on saying how we could do it anyway. She then said "that is clearly Maria's need that she she had thought over hard enough and says she chooses NOT to accept it, do you have a solution that she would accept?". He said find time etc etc. I explained all these "solutions" have been discussed before but he fails to "deliver". She suggested I go with him to some of his trips. I said I was never welcome. And added that she went to almost everyone of them so obviously there is no work related reason I couldnt go (he always said he would be too busy to entertain me and I would be bored and a burden). Silence again. This coming trip to Africa is an example, he laughed at me when I said I wanted to go.

In the end she said she sensed I am feeling like I have done evrything possible and right now I am negative and not willing to "bend". And that he is not doing what he should be doing to come close to me and soothe and soften me and we feel like we are at a dead end. She said, "you obviously love each other VERY much, there is no doubt in my head about it even if you Maria deny it and dont feel it. You can do this, lets work on taking down the defenses and finding a way for H to start doing things that would meet your needs". She said the trick is to start meeting each other's needs and how we do it or when doesnt really matter. Once that starts we will feel love coming back to us.

She is mellow and soft spoken and sometimes was taken by surprise by all the tension and emotion and several times I thought she acted stupid on purpose asking for clarifications that gave us seconds to "calm down".

She also asked him what he found in her. He said he didnt know, havent thought about it.

At one point I said I am guilty of teaching him he could get away with giving very little all those years in the past. That I was setting my self up for this disapointement because when I got tired, instead of stepping up, he chose to find someone else that would again be happy with very little from him. He objected strongly and said I cant be rewriting our history, that we had a solid R and that it is my negativity speaking... (SOUNDS VERY FAMILIAR, no?).

Anyway, today we havent spoken about it and our mood is ok. One thing that is changing is that, different from what was happening, we dont get distant after speaking about the past anymore although we dont agree. It's like we both accept, it is OK that our versions of the past are different.
K

[addie]

K,

This C seems pretty good given the fact you've said it's very hard to find a good MC in Greece. You guys have addressed a lot of issues in the first session. Give it time. At least H is starting to open up little by little.

[Virtually_Handsome]

((((((((Kalni))))))))

I think I really like your C. I don't know where the road will lead, but at least you are on it. I'm hearing a lot of good things, but I also know there are lots of obstacles still in the way.

I can't give a lot of advice, I never even got close to piecing, but I will be following along, if silently. HUGS!

[mishka422]

K - I've been reading along but I, like Jeff, find that I really have no helpful words of advice since I haven't been down the road you are traveling.

I can say that your C sounds like she has some good insight and may be able to ease you two into some sort of better path toward R.

You are always in my heart and mind and I pray for you and H daily, as I do all of my friends here. I will add to them that your H's heart and mind are opened up to be vulnerable to you and not afraid of your reactions. I wonder where that fear comes from? What does he think you're going to do? Kill him? If you haven't done that by now, you're not going to.

Ok, a little levity there at the end of a most serious post was needed. You know me......seriousness is highly overrated!

Off to church now. Have a blessed rest of your day!

[AliSuddenly]

The councelor asked when was the last time we felt like having contact with each other.....He said no. He doesnt want to. He said he feels like I am "fire" and will burn him. He said even when I am calm, he thinks I am ready to blow up, with no warning. Which is completely unfair and wrong. Even when I am upset, physical touch is my LL, it soothes me.I told him that, I told him if he was brave enough to risk, he would be pleasantly surprised...
At one point he was explaining vividly how difficult it is for him to handle me when I am mad, upset and/or sad. He went on and on saying he couldnt, he didnt want to, he wasnt able to "deal with all that emotion".

Hey mate, wow. Well, you may feel that this is unfair and wrong, but I assume he was being honest with the MC? So this IS how he HE feels and he sees it, right?? What can you do to reassure him that you have either a) changed or b) that he is wrong about your anger and that you won't blow up at him?? I know you posted here alot before, during the S that he hated you getting angry. I guess some people just cant handle anger, even if it is a perfectly normal human reaction (me being one of them, because my parents had a fiery R and I didnt want to recreate that model). Is he just particularly sensitive ??!

The thing about lack of time versus working too much was intereesting. So he saw what his Dad did, and thought that was correct (and as his Mum was presumbaly ok with it too)? But yes, as long as he understands he is making a choice here.. like the C said, thats not what you want or need, so he is choosing to NOT pay attention to that. I guess after everything that has happened (and you did wait for him, deep down).. he doesnt really expect you to leave, like, he can carry on regardless, working 16 hours a day and there wont really be any consequences??

So what can you do to make him see that its no longer acceptable? One for next weeks session maybe! When she suggested going on the business trips, it sounded like you jumped in with "well I am not welcome".. did you? Or did you look to him to respond first saying what he felt of that idea? Maybe let him answer that one next time, or maybe he just didnt!

She said, "you obviously love each other VERY much, there is no doubt in my head about it even if you Maria deny it and dont feel it. You can do this, lets work on taking down the defenses and finding a way for H to start doing things that would meet your needs". She said the trick is to start meeting each other's needs and how we do it or when doesnt really matter. Once that starts we will feel love coming back to us.

Smart lady!!!

xxx

[Kalni]

Ali,
I dont blow up at him. I get quiet and sad often. 99,95% of these times, I dont tell him anything about it. Sometimes he asks me and I dont tell him just to avoide getting into heavy discussions.

Remember all the times your BF was holding you and reassuring you when you were getting upset and crying over the past? H can NOT, will NOT do that. Because it is hard for him. He says he cant handle any kind of emotion. But I have emotions about the past and his A. And the more he ignores/avoids me, the sadness turns to anger and resentment. This is something we need to handle together for about 50% and each of us on our own for the rest 50%. He wants me to do it on my own 100% and have nothing to do with me. But there are some things I can only get from him, reassurance, tenderness, etc etc. I want these things from my R anyway, not just from him now...

Anyway, MC gave us homework. To prepare a list of things that we want from each other on a daily basis, little positive, loving gestures. At first I said I didnt want to to do that because I have given him such list and he ignores it. She insisted in a weird -now that I think of it- way and I agreed. H agreed immediately that he wanted to do it... I am curious to see what he wants. Ohh he actually said one thing :peace.

H refuses to accept the impact his work schedule has on me. This weekend the kids were a handful with their homework, attitude etc. He started calm and then pretty soon he got very frustrated with them. At one point I told him calmly and peacefully "I hope you realise this is what I face everyday, it is not a weekend thing, but you dont know it, you are not aware of it, weekdays the kids for you are just a goodnight phonecall...". He nodded.

On another note, my dads test are not good this time. The last few weeks he has been looking very weak and although we continue to give him that drug, just as they had warned us, this trimester the results are not good. I am ready for my MLC now.
K

[Gnosis]

Kalni, I meant to reply to you earlier on in my thread, I did today. Remember how usually we don't follow our own advice to others... advice like this:

Gno, you wife WAS probably all you decribed as "ideal". You were probably her ideal of a H. That's why you married, no? Dont forget that.

I haven't forgotten and don't you do that either.

I added the following to my reply in my thread:

~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm glad that you and H have gone to MC. Your MC sounds great and seems to know what she is doing. Soften your heart a little sister. That your H is trying is very important. I know you are carrying a lot of hurt and resentment (and justifiably so) but please try let a little of it go. Remember the saying that it takes two to tango? Well... it kind of applies here too. The road has two directions and to meet both of you must be walking towards each other. If one is chasing the other the two of you will never meet halfway. Does that make sense?

~~~~~~~~~

K, I'm in no position to offer an opinion on your sitch. You've been at this far longer than I. All I can say is, sometimes with all the reading we do... we forget the basics. When you have too much information in your head it is usually best to return to the basics.

One thing I can say that may help you understand your H... sometimes when my W was upset I had no clue what I could do to console her. I knew that she needed to be hugged and held, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It sounds stupid... knowing what to do and actually doing it are two extremely difficult. It took me a while to be comfortable actually doing it.

I hope this helps you in some way.

[BobbiJo]

I have been following along every day but like others not sure what to post since you have made it farther than I did.

Dan is terrified of emotions, too. He saw his dad yell and his mom cry and hated it, every day. So if I get 'emotional' he has to either run away and hide from it or get angry about it, he just doesn't know how to handle it!!

Anyway just saying I think it can be common for men esp those brought up with certain family patterns to be 'afraid' of emotions. Too bad for them when they marry women who embrace their emotions and FEEL them!

The counselor sounds like she is on the right track, I hope you guys keep going.

[june72]

Boy, I know people here are going to be against what I say but... here it goes.
I have been reading and hoping maybe there would be some sort of turnaround for you and your hubby but.

He is doing almost nothing. His request for "peace" is selfish- his affair (his fault, all blame lies on him) decimated the marriage and now he wants to not have to answer for it. NO discussion, no upset... what can I say... "peace" means that he gets to move on and not do the hard work. Not to deal with your emotions and upset.

The lack of sex- you stated that was a dealbreaker. The refusal of a transparency plan with passwords and phone records. The laughing when you stated you wanted to go to Africa on his next trip, when he took the OW to his trips. Laughing? He is unwilling to spend time with you and argues his reasons as to why he can not.

I think his vision of marriage is that you do what ever appeases him and he does not do the same for you? Am I right? He lives with you, great? As roommates at best.

Why would you accept this? Do you think he is going to change. Even the marriage counselor noted that you have worked on the marriage and he has not.

I asked you before- where do you see things in a year from now. I will ask you again- where do you see things a year from now?


I am sorry Maria- I am not trying to knock you down. I just think you deserve better. I think what he is giving you is unacceptable. I think he will string you along with false hopes and just piecemeal "crumbs" to keep you in his life.

You stated quite a while back that he does not have it in him to do the work required to heal this marriage. Has your opinion changed on this?

You do not deserve this, and quite frankly- what is it showing (teaching) your children? Do you want this to be the norm for them so that when your son or daughter grows up they will be ok with a spouse treating them this way?

[MichelleLT]

That sounds like a super intense MC session! It's so positive that he really got talking.

It's also very positive that he wanted to work on the lists! I know you have told him before, but he seems to be in a more receptive place now.

I hope the MC really got him thinking with her questions about his job and priorities.

I know you have put in so much time and effort. But I loved your back on track post, and the MC post.

MWD posted this and it made me think about my D. Luckily, we didn't have kids. So, in a way this article hit even closer to home. I experienced all of those negatives, the depression, the financial issues, trying to do everything on my own. Don't know if you read it yet or not, if not here it is.

June, Maria does deserve more. She won't settle for less. But she is giving it time. As for the kids, I have to disagree with you. Maria is showing them commitment and determination and problem-solving. She's showing them it's not okay by trying to improve their M. Plus, all the studies show that kids are far better off when parents stay together and work through their problems.