You know what, Kevin? In so many ways you remind me of my H. For what is going on two years he still tells me he did EVERYTHING he could to save our marriage. Note: He NEVER once in our 10 years of marriage or overall, the 13 years we were together, tell me ONE TIME he was unhappy. Every gripe he had about me (most of them made up) he never once told me during our marriage. And if he was in such dire straights he NEVER once sought help via any resources. In fact, he acted like the loving and doting husband up until the morning of the bomb.
In short: He never once told me he was unhappy, he never sought any sort of assistance to understand or change his so called unhappiness and perhaps the WORST, he played the part of super husband till moments before he dropped the bomb. What exactly did he do to save our marriage? No talking, no sharing of feelings or what needed to be improved in his eyes, no work on himself... NOTHING. He did nothing yet to him he did everything.
You are the same. You have done *very* little work yet in your mind you have done EVERYTHING. In a way that is what is most frightening to me. You think, like my H, you did everything you could have done but in reality it was nothing. The scary thing is I think both you and my H actually believe what you are saying.
Nobody is knocking your religion. IMO though it seems you are taking to to a very fanatical level in order to avoid reality. You talk about being counseled by your priest often. If you are being counseled on the teachings of the church that is wonderful but not what you NEED. I find it a bit odd your priest feels church teachings will "do the job". I mean, even the CHURCH requires "outside experts" to review the cases of invalidity.
The church does accept marriage outside of the church, the marriage is simply not considered a sacrament however it does NOT mean it is not a marriage. On every bit of info I read last night it clearly stated the CHURCH has no say over the legal divorce (civil law, child support, spousal support, visitation and so on and respects and honors all obligations).
Are you telling us your marriage might be invalid as a sacrament? If so, then really, who cares at this point? And if YOU care then why did you not worry about this before your W left you?
I told you this a few weeks ago when you posted something that actually frightened me because it sounded so severe. You have now bypassed depression and I truly do think you need medical/psychological help (JUST LIKE I DID). There is NO shame in getting it. I might not be typing this message had I not gotten it. And yes, I knew better than EVERYBODY (I didn't).
You can lie to yourself all you want (I DID THAT TOO, IT DOES NOT HELP) but you are doing a terrible injustice to yourself. You need to seek medical/psych help and tell them you are so depressed you can hardly function, you are frozen in fear, you are unable to set boundaries with anybody in your life, you have reached almost a fanatical level with the Church and are unable to establish and reach any sort of goals.
It is NOT easy to say that to a dr. I know that because once it came out of my mouth when I went to the dr. I could not believe it. But I was relieved because I was sick of living a lie. I was exhausted.
On my very worst day (when my mother intervened) I paced around my apartment for TWELVE hours trying to catch my breath. On my kitchen counter I saw a core of an apple. I sat on my kitchen floor and sobbed because I could not remember when I had eaten the apple or why it was there.
Do you think it is EASY OR COMFORTABLE to share one of the darkest moments of my life on a public message board? It is not. But I can relate.
I'm not hoping for an annullment. I am not even thinking of it as an option. What my thought process has been is that if everything comes to a final close, I want to know if the church considered us married to begin with. I hope they do.
Something was said to me recently that if my W was a confirmed catholic when we got married and we did not get married by a priest, then my W did not submit to the authority of the church which she falls under if she was confirmed. This could invalidate the M from the beginning. However, if she had publicly in some formal manner renounced her catholisism before we were married, this could also change things. If I am not mistaken, she was a confirmed catholic who left the church and before we got married, she was baptized by the church of christ. Although we were both baptized as infants by the catholic church, I was not continued to be raised in the catholic church and instead of raised in the church of Christ. Not knowing how the catholic church works with regard to M, or caring at the time we got married, we proceeded to be married in the church of Christ.
And yes, she was pregnant when we got married so I guess if someone such as Mel Gibson wanted to push for Duress, blah blah blah, I guess someone could look at that. And yes I was drinking back then, although not at the wedding or when we signed the document or when I proposed. But through out the time together I drank. I was reading somewhere that addictions can be considered to make a M invalid. I don't know.
Anyways, the whole confirmation thing and being subject to the church at that point has left me wondering if our M was valid.
It is true that the catholic church does recognize outside M's. But in the case of where one or both parties are subject to the laws of the catholic church, via confirmation, then that M comes into question if done outside the church. I was told we would need to come in and have a sacrament done to validate our M which W at this time will have nothing to do with.
I would not seek an annullment to try and have a M ruled invalid. My reason for having our M looked at would be to see if it is or is not valid if W D's me. If it is valid, then I know my position. If it is not, then that leaves me with do I try to win her back or move on to see if there is a new better R out there. But my looking into it would have nothing to do with trying to invalidate the M. Either the M is valid or it is not. There is no trying to invalidate it or trying to get out of it or trying to find a loop hole. I just want to know where it stands now that some of these things have been tossed my way leading me to wonder about the status of our M.
I want my W and family back. I'm not sure that will ever change. I am just left wondering if she is my W according to the church or not.
Again, I am not looking for a loop hole, I am hoping she really is my W. Either way, at this time, it doesn't change her position on our M.
CG, I never questioned this until recently. I never had a reason to question it prior because it had never been made aware to me that there is a chance our M may not be valid. The thought never even crossed my mind.
Stuck, I am not hiding behind anything. I am stating what has been made aware to me recently that left me wondering what my status really is. I want more than anything to have my W and kids back intact.
25, I have nothing to say about your brother or SIL. That is up to the church, not me. They are the authority, not me. I realize some of the uninformed comments I made in the past that I should not have made or questioned about other people's situations.
The only situation I am questioning now is mine. And I am not looking for a get out of jail free card. I am not looking to get out of this. I don't want out of it. But if worse comes to worse, I intend to find out just where does our M stand according to the church. I don't care what the legal system says. The church is the only one that matters. The church has divine authority to rule on M's, not the court.
There is a civil M and a sacramental M. The church simply signs off on the civil portion. If the M is truly valid before the church and God, whatever the civil courts say after means nothing with regard to the M being valid or not.
Hopefully this gives you more insight as to where I have been mentally lately. Questions have been tossed to me that I am now not sure of.
I hesitate to say things on here sometimes because if I say what has been thrown my way that has thrown me into confusion, some of you immediately assume I am looking for a free easy esacpe which is not the case at all.
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K4, just to repeat, I want to see you get well this year. Do you?
Of course.
BTW, I think a lot of catholics would question Rome if they actually granted Gibson an annulment.
Kevin
Last edited by K4D; 01/15/1003:14 PM.
Me 36, W 37 M: 08/02/97 D13, D9 1st Bomb 02/08 Reconciled 04/08 2nd Bomb: 09/08 W filed for D 02/04/09 Separated 03/09 D dismissed 06/09/09 Still separated...
The Church WILL consider your marriage valid if you meet the four points of criteria I listed above.
Where I am getting tripped up is as follows: The Church recognizes ALL marriages but it may (or may not) recognize them as a Sacrament. BIG DIFFERENCE. You were not real worried about the marriage being a sacrament in the Catholic Church when you were baptized (your W) and married via a DIFFERENT FAITH so why now? You said yourself you did NOT care. Now you do when you didn't even care enough to get married in the Catholic faith? Why, because your W didn't want to be married in a Catholic Church. That is why.
Addiction is an IMPEDEMENT and not CRITERIA.
Not being a sacramental marriage is not "grounds" for invalidity. Invalidity is based on INTENT on the day the marriage started. Not what happened AFTER.
You really need to think about this long and hard. I do not have a crystal ball but I am very comfortable saying I do believe your W will file for divorce before 2010 is over - she is waiting on both of you to move and have better jobs so she does not have to pay you support. You will have custody issues to attend to in the LEGAL fashion. If you attempt to go through the steps of the Tribunal to declare your marriage invalid you will need 6-12 outside people to submit a fair amount of paperwork to "back your case up". Do you think it will bode well for you in regard to custody issues/the law that you are so bent on finding out it the marriage was valid? Do you think that will make you look like a well adjusted, stable and capable parent? Do you think your W won't bring that up in the legal sense?
Basically you did what your W wanted (got married in a different church and you said you didn't care in your post above) and once your W decided she was done with the marriage you found religion again and are putting so much effort, based on what "you heard" to prove the marriage was invalid in the eyes of a Church you never got married in? So all this work to prove something that essentially didn't matter to you before - hell, forget "matter" you were not even AWARE of. And this seems like the appropriate path to take instead of working on you?
Are you telling us your marriage might be invalid as a sacrament? If so, then really, who cares at this point? And if YOU care then why did you not worry about this before your W left you?
It has been made aware to me that yes, it may be invalid as a sacrament. I didn't know about this before my W left me. It never crossed my mind.
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You need to seek medical/psych help and tell them you are so depressed you can hardly function, you are frozen in fear, you are unable to set boundaries with anybody in your life, you have reached almost a fanatical level with the Church and are unable to establish and reach any sort of goals.
huh? frozen in fear? can't function? Just because I don't like the state of things doesn't mean I am not funtioning or I am frozen in fear. I don't consider myself to have reached a fanatical level with the church either, just trying to follow along with it and understand where I stand. I don't think by me recognizing the church as the authority that it makes me a fanatic. Don't most catholics recognize the church as the authority?
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No talking, no sharing of feelings or what needed to be improved in his eyes, no work on himself... NOTHING. He did nothing yet to him he did everything.
I did talk about and share my feelings. W says I talked to much and she just wanted to duct tape my mouth shut.
Also, I have been told like I said to assume my M is valid at this point until the courts have said otherwise. Only then will the church actually look at it to see if it is a valid sacrament or not. But my priests thinking right now is that it may not be.
Anyways, latest update. W called me yesterday as I was on my way to mass after work and tells me her mother threw a fit about W trying to reschedule dinner so she could spend last night with her dad. So W put dinner back on for last night with her mom, step dad, D8, D12, her sister, her sisters BF and her neice. She told me when it was and wanted to let me know so I could join. I said no thanks, to go ahead and enjoy their dinner and I will catch up with them Friday, being tonight. She said sounds good and we got off the phone.
W calls me this morning and asks me if I want to wish D8 a happy birthday. I said yes, I did want to but was at work on a conference call from 7am til 8am and by then figured D8 would be at school. W said she is letting D8 move slowly this morning because it is her birthday. That didn't sit well with me as D8 has been tardy a few times to school, but I said nothing. I said let me talk to her. So I wished D8 a happy birthday and talked to her for a few minutes and told her I would be joining her for lunch today at her school. She said her mom is bringing cupcakes so I guess W may be there also. Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Kevin
Me 36, W 37 M: 08/02/97 D13, D9 1st Bomb 02/08 Reconciled 04/08 2nd Bomb: 09/08 W filed for D 02/04/09 Separated 03/09 D dismissed 06/09/09 Still separated...
If it is not, then that leaves me with do I try to win her back or move on to see if there is a new better R out there.
Again, as someone else pointed out, you limit yourself to only two choices.
You can't WIN her back!!!! She has to WANT to come back.
You can't have a better R with someone else until you fix yourself!!!
And again, I'm Catholic, but the time and energy you've devoted to this "am I married or not" issue, boggles my mind. If you would only spend a fraction of that time to get yourself straightened out, you'd be so much better off.
Of course, all of this is just my opinion.
Everybody hurts. It's part of life. Don't miss the good stuff.
Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Not thinking ahead, I had put on a regular polo shirt for work being Friday that W has said in the past she hates. Ugg. Oh well. I will change tonight for dinner.
Kevin
I'm literally speechless .................
Everybody hurts. It's part of life. Don't miss the good stuff.
You are saying you did all the work on you but you have not done any work on you.
It is easy to say you did *something* and convince yourself of that when in reality you did nothing.
You say you are not stuck in fear, right? If that is the case then why can't you set a boundary? Why can't you create a goal that does not involve your W?
There is not a thing wrong with recognizing the church as your spiritual authority. Using the church to avoid working on you in the name of answering to a higher authority is a problem. If you could attack your own issues with the same vigor you are using to explore the validity of your M (when you were not even married in a Catholic Church and you said you were fine with that and did not care) things would be better for you.
