Well, I hope for your sake the marriage as not valid. You are 34 and basically are telling me (if I am understanding this correctly, if not please pardon me, I am trying to follow all this) the ONLY way you are allowed, as per the church, to have a R after a divorce (a legal divorce I mean) is if your church marriage is invalid according to church law?
Why not just become a priest now?
Let's just say your marriage IS valid in the church and your W does divorce you. Are you saying you will NEVER have a R again because the church still sees you as married despite a legal divorce? If so then maybe priesthood is something to look into. Actually, maybe you can't be a priest since you are not pure. I grew up in a very strict Roman Catholic home (I don't practice anymore and have not for a long time so let's not get in a debate about that) but this all seems a bit staunch.
Kevin my exMIL is a very devoute Catholic. She goes to mass every single day. She has been married now 4 times. Her first 2 husbands died and the 3rd figured out she was as loony as her kids so he bailed and D her. She got an annulment through the church and is now remarried again. Its a process and does take almost a year or so, but it can be done. There are alot of divorced people in the Catholic church. If this is your holdup with the D, then you can seek an annulment.
Me: 46 FWS: 36 Married and Divorced 4/07, Pregnant 7/07,False R 7/07 Baby Girl born 3/08 Kicked him out because OW: 7/08 5/10 He realized what he had and lost. Moved home! REMARRIED 3/14/11!!
Dude that church argument is so weak. All you're doing is using the church as an excuse of whether or not you should remain a stander. IT DOESN"T MATTER.
If you are only doing it because the church tells you so, you will fail. You will fail because your heart isn't in it. You have to do what you believe. If you make up your mind to do it because it's church doctrine, then do it positively. Right now you sound like a child - "oh I have to stay in it because the church says so."
That's why you're failing. If you're going to decide on something, do it because you want to. Not because you HAVE to. You haven't even gotten to that part.
Yes it sucks with work and all, but you know what? Take a look at the rest of the other posters. All of our sitches suck. It's just a fact of life. Make the best use of the tools that God gave you because right now you're changing into a resentful person with a "woe is me" attitude.
Like I said before, we all get in this funk. The key is to kick yourself in the ass. Note I said kick YOURSELF in the ass and get started living.
Everyone here is trying to do it for you. YOU are the one who needs to get it started. Personally, I think you need a healthy routine. Like taking an ongoing class or ongoing counselling or something. Right now, you going to the occassional game or dinner are just band-aids and ways of escaping.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Funny how people tend to use the Bible/Church to defend negative attitudes, and they frequenty overlook the scriptures/doctrines that would build healthy attitudes.
I just did a bit of reading because this all seems very extreme, even for you.
Basically the Tribunal will declare a marriage invalid if it is determined one or both of the parties entered in to the marriage under false pretenses and did not have intent to be faithful or bring children in to the world. It is very clear in ALL the reading I have done that if your spouse cheats on you it does NOT mean the marriage is invalid as long as that was not their intent when they entered in the marriage.
The four requirements that must be met AT THE TIME THE MARRIAGE STARTED:
*Be able to exchange consent, and do so freely and unconditionally *Consent to fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children *Not have any impediments to marriage *Follow the sacrament properly
Impediments include:
Church law recognizes twelve specific impediments to marriage. They include things like coercion, being too young, already being married, blood or in-law relations, having received holy orders, being under vows of chastity, or being impotent (permanently unable to engage in sexual intercourse).
Are you trying to tell us that your W, on the DAY YOU WERE MARRIED did not agree to be faithful to you and raise children with you? A marriage cannot be invalid if infidelity happened if BOTH PARTIES agreed to all four requirements on the day the contract started.
If your W did not agree to be faithful to you on your wedding day then why in hell did you marry her? And there are all kinds of scenarios I read about regarding baptism or spouses of differing religions and the Catholic Church honors ALL marriages.
And really, if you were so concerned your marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Church then why did you wait until your W cheated on you and left you to get on this road to discovery? Do you think happy people are looking for ways to find out if their marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church?
On every site I went to it says you will need 6-12 witnesses to fill out documentation to support your case for the Tribunal Investigation. In addition to paying the fees for the Investigation (and hell, it seems some of these cases go all the way to Rome) you might be required to pay a psychologist and other professionals OUTSIDE THE CHURCH to review your case. In addition, your W will be contacted although she is not required to participate.
I am confused. The Investigation process is used to invalidate a marriage from the START of the marriage - not once some problems occur. Are you saying you believe your marriage was NEVER valid from minute 1 and you are just now getting around to checking it to the validity of your marriage? Why now?
I just did a bit of reading because this all seems very extreme, even for you.
Basically the Tribunal will declare a marriage invalid if it is determined one or both of the parties entered in to the marriage under false pretenses and did not have intent to be faithful or bring children in to the world. It is very clear in ALL the reading I have done that if your spouse cheats on you it does NOT mean the marriage is invalid as long as that was not their intent when they entered in the marriage.
The four requirements that must be met AT THE TIME THE MARRIAGE STARTED:
*Be able to exchange consent, and do so freely and unconditionally *Consent to fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children *Not have any impediments to marriage *Follow the sacrament properly
Impediments include:
Church law recognizes twelve specific impediments to marriage. They include things like coercion, being too young, already being married, blood or in-law relations, having received holy orders, being under vows of chastity, or being impotent (permanently unable to engage in sexual intercourse).
Are you trying to tell us that your W, on the DAY YOU WERE MARRIED did not agree to be faithful to you and raise children with you? A marriage cannot be invalid if infidelity happened if BOTH PARTIES agreed to all four requirements on the day the contract started.
If your W did not agree to be faithful to you on your wedding day then why in hell did you marry her? And there are all kinds of scenarios I read about regarding baptism or spouses of differing religions and the Catholic Church honors ALL marriages.
And really, if you were so concerned your marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Church then why did you wait until your W cheated on you and left you to get on this road to discovery? Do you think happy people are looking for ways to find out if their marriage is valid in the eyes of the Church?
On every site I went to it says you will need 6-12 witnesses to fill out documentation to support your case for the Tribunal Investigation. In addition to paying the fees for the Investigation (and hell, it seems some of these cases go all the way to Rome) you might be required to pay a psychologist and other professionals OUTSIDE THE CHURCH to review your case. In addition, your W will be contacted although she is not required to participate.
I am confused. The Investigation process is used to invalidate a marriage from the START of the marriage - not once some problems occur. Are you saying you believe your marriage was NEVER valid from minute 1 and you are just now getting around to checking it to the validity of your marriage? Why now?
k4, I too find your arguments very confusing and as usual, missing chunks of relevant information. I hate it when we have to drag out pieces of info that would enable us to comment intelligently so instead, we're all playing a weird guessing game. You never said the word "annulment" but I have to assume that's where you're going with this. There is no "divorce" in the Church. (FOLKS, That does NOT mean a divorced Catholic is excommunicated by the way.) But Annulment would make your children bastards...(nice touch). So, wth are you talking about? I actually took a Canon Law class in my Catholic law school so yes, I have informed/biased opinions. But I just don't know where you're going with this. And I would not count on one priest necessarily knowing b/c there are varied opinions within the Church. Not to preach here, but one thing I'm sure of and that I like about being Catholic is that there's more local variation than some want to admit. I like that. I can go to a traditional Latin mass and join a conservative parish or join a Sanctuary Church or study liberation theology or whatever....so what's the goal here?
You want some "get out of jail free" card or what? And fwiw, the Church's ceremony DOES matter legally in the sense that the state vests the power in the Clergy to sign off on the marriage license. We were m in the Church though my h is not Catholic. We had no justice of the peace doing the ceremony. We had a priest and HE signed the license so the state and the church do overlap some. Also there is such a thing as a LEGAL annulment which I can tell you now, you won't get. Period. Unless of course you forgot some HUGE issue to tell us....but it'd have to be damn big. Like was she or you married before and STILL married so that you are bigamists? I mean something is missing from this story....
The Church annulment is a different ball of wax from the state's...but good grief, why go there? What advantage do you...OH WAIT...then you're off the hook from your very rigid interpretation of "Standing"!! And you probably think that's the only way You could re-marry IN the Church and have a mass and everything. AND you still don't have to change or grow....you can repeat that crazy statement you made awhile ago, when you said you had "Done everything you can to save the marriage...went to mass, praying and fasting..." and not a word about change or growth within.... Sure, you "did everything you could to save it..."
K4, we cannot do this for you. ( In case you dont know, that means you have to do this or it won't get done. ) I re-read some of your posts from months ago and they really do cycle through -- and then we ALL say "get help" and you don't. NO you don't, not the help we mean. you get insulted and dismissive. It's like you won't look inside to make the real changes you must make to learn to be happy without her, or any OW, and to manage your life better. WHY WON'T YOU DO THAT? PLEASE ANSWER....WHY DON'T YOU GET HELP FOR YOUR EMOTIONAL ISSUES? WHAT'S THE BIG FEAR? THEY WON'T CARVE LETTERS IN YOUR FOREHEAD--THAT WAS THE MANSONS....they won't make you get naked, or yell as if you are coming out of the womb again. I'm talking mainstream T.... B/C you have done Nothing life changing in the past year that wasn't forced upon you and you have not made progress on any front, professionally, personally or with your m or another R... and I can't think of one thing we've suggested, not one piece of advice can I think of, did you take.
Marrying In the Church For the record, my brother re-married in the church 11 years ago. It was a 2nd M for both he and his wife, and they each brought 3 girls into the m, and then had another one of their own since. Neither he nor his w sought or were granted annulments of their first m's, and they had a MASS for their wedding. Parishes vary in their flexibility and rigidity. Neither my brother nor my sil were previously m to Catholics (indeed she was married to a Muslim who kidnapped their d's and she had to retrieve them from a refugee camp overseas and she's testified in Congress and helped pass legislation about foreign abductions....but I digress--HOWEVER I say all this K4, b/c I don't want to hear you condemn her for being a "whore" (instead of the hero I see her as, b/c she has helped thousands of abducted children re-unite with their custodial parent) or condemn my brother for dating/marrying her since you said anyone who would date a woman who was once m, is an adulterer... which you have said before about any man dating your wife even if you do divorce.
That rigidity to me is unhealthy and unsound and weirdly stubborn. (It's also offensive) Like you won't change or grow or do anything of substance differently in you, but you sure as heck will stomp your feet and judge others. I had hoped that the OW you met would shake you up a tad so you would stop this. I thought a light bulb had gone off. But your new "plan" seems more like a way to avoid working on yourself and project your energy on yet another external issue,& seems headed in that direction.
Get well K4. That is my wish for you. Above all else, get well. For without getting well, nothing else can happen. I am surprised that you can know in your heart you have been depressed a long time and yet still tolerate it. It was not the result of the m problems b/c the depression preceded them. IT CAUSED THEM in part at least. It added to the drinking and the complacency and the job passing...and the prior inactivity with the girls that improved after the separation....all these things remain unaddressed and here we are in pretty much the same spot. Dear God, don't you want to be happy? Is it something you don't believe you can do on your own b/c you never have before? So you don't think it's a learned skill? Happiness either lands on you or it misses you?
You waiting for someone to fix your life from the outside in, instead of the other way around. (And not going to the professionals who can fix it). Even The theological arguments only make sense when you're well enough to process that God's answer might be "no"...or that He wants you to change emotionally and psychologically, and you aren't doing that. So...forget the fasting and praying as if that's the path, b/c It didn't work. And it diverted you from the healthier path, imo.
like I said, here we are again K4. Your happiness should be AND IS....ALL up to you. And you don't see that. (Sigh) You are an enigma. You appear to be someone who wallows in self misery, while saying he doesn't want to wallow or be stuck. But remains so. This is strange. I know there are whiners in life who want to blame their h's or w's for all their ills but with you it's more like "Life for me-KEVIN sucks and I can do NOTHING about it..." even though comparatively it isn't that terrible, but you chronically sound depressed with only brief respites...and that negative energy you put out, you get back from your life. I mean it. Check out your next social sitch and see what you put out and what you get back. I bet the OW you met that night met an upbeat K4....but your w doesn't. Not for long anyhow. She senses it's an act, and she's right. I mean it, What you send out to the universe, you get back. Do you have some Best friends in the area?
How is that 3rd path I suggested you "process"?
Be careful what you do with your m status in the church... unless you want to pull a Mel Gibson, who NOW says his 28 yr m to his wife Robin, with whom he's had 7 or 8 children, was invalid since she MAY have been pregnant when they married (with HIS kid of course). Meaning his attitude or hers wasn't fully free or there was duress or blah blah blah.....How's he explain the other 27 years and kids? And the fact that this new woman in his life just had his 8/9th child...oh never mind. HIS FATHER is a self appointed "bishop" (although married), and is supposedly giving him an "annulment" from "his catholic" church and pretending it's the real Church doing it. If ROME gives Mel Gibson an annulment, I'll leave the Church, but I'm not counting the wacko stuff his dad is doing, as meaning anything. I digress. But I'm not a fan of machinations to rationalize, esp when they bastardize your d's....can you think of THEM FIRST? I honestly don't believe you do. Sometimes their interests overlap with yours & you fight hard for "them"...but this isn't one of those times. This is all about you wanting something that sounds fishy to me... Sorry. But without more info, that's how it sounds.
A whole lot is missing from what you said. So, can't give valid input and you seem to want it that way. Rationalizing well can be scary can't it? Your stb xw does it well. Do you? K4, just to repeat, I want to see you get well this year. Do you? j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The only one who can change things is you. I promise you it feels so much better to be in charge of your own life and not wait for the next hit. I just hate seeing you getting disappointed over and over again!
Me: 46 FWS: 36 Married and Divorced 4/07, Pregnant 7/07,False R 7/07 Baby Girl born 3/08 Kicked him out because OW: 7/08 5/10 He realized what he had and lost. Moved home! REMARRIED 3/14/11!!
