You folks are essentially right on. It's of course not quite black and white. If you go back and read over what my W and I said to each other this past fall you'll see she was definitely conflicted about everything. Her seeing our youngest daughter crying and pleading with her for us all to live together again, and her reaching out and wrapping her arms around me and not letting go. Her putting our family pictures up in her living room for the kids to see. I don't go in her house, so they weren't there for me to see. Her asking me if I could forgive her if I knew everything.
I agree that she didn't DO anything about it, and that's where I know I am right in my response. She needed to DO something. She needed to make sure I KNEW she didn't want to lose me, instead of vaguely flirting and giving mixed signals. It was intolerable for me.
Was I right in taking a hard stance? Well, I would have been right doing just about anything, since she left me. I was under no obligation to do anything one way or the other, and that's what she tries to manipulate. She wants ME to feel guilty for not accomodating her needs through all this. It's ridiculous. She tells me her heart was broken, that's why she was acting the way she was. What am I supposed to do with that? I have been trying to take care of her for so long that it's just automatic for me.
The conflict and misery of my situation was again illustrated this morning when I got a voice message on my cell phone from my W's phone. She let my youngest daughter call me and say "Daddy, I love you." I hate that I have to hear that over a cell phone message rather than in person, but I know many people have a much worse situation, both here on this forum, and in other aspects of life (parents deployed to war zones, etc), so I'm trying to stay positive and appreciate what I have, which is plenty.
I don't know if this will help you any but when our separation was almost complete I went through an awful stage of anger. It was almost as bad as when my H left the first time.
One would think we would be thrilled this BS is coming to an end (even if it didn't end how we had hoped or wanted it to) but for crying out loud it *does* have to end in some fashion or everybody involved will continue to destruct.
Your W sounds much like my H. Mad that we can't read minds. Mad that we did as they wanted (let them go) but didn't keep asking what was going on their heads. Why bother? All of it was a lie anyhow. The night before our separation was finalized my H gave me the most passionate speech I have ever heard come from his mouth. How he didn't care if it took the rest of his life but he would work until his dying day to earn my trust and respect back and make things right between us. He also said he knew I did everything in my power to turn this situation around and I deserved better. He said he understands and accepts I have no reason to trust him but he would work, work, work until I did.
And then I NEVER heard from him again other than a few e-mails about assets and another e-mail to tell me what a terrible person I was for not wishing him a happy T-day. He reminds me of OJ Simpson who spent years looking for his W's killer on golf courses (note to OJ: to find your W's killer look in the mirror).
I think this surge of anger is normal before things finalize. My attny said that but he could have been just trying to make me feel better... who knows.
I don't disagree this (our, yours, mine) situation is riddled with conflict and misery. That is not to say we don't appreciate what we do have because I know we both do. But the conflict and misery is very real.
One day we will get a beer (wine, cocktail.. whatever strikes your fancy) and find some small aspect of this horrid experience to laugh at (that is why we need booze, it helps
I know you are hurting. This sucks, pure and simple.
The fact is, there are people on these forums (Hope4Us comes to mind) who took an INCREDIBLY patient, softer stance (altho even HE coupled it with aggressive exposure; it's really only the LENGTH of his patience that was remarkable), and it worked.
And there are DOZENS who have done that, and it hasn't.
And there are people who take the strong stance, and it works (Coach, me, for just two examples).
And yet there are plenty who tried that and ultimately, it hasn't, because at the end of the day it's still the walkaway spouse's choice as to what they want to do.
There is no ONE WAY. But I also believe, in my heart of hearts, that even if you make a HORRIBLE MISTAKE, and choose the wrong way? But you are basically loving and genuine, and still authentically "you" as you do so? And you treat your WAS with respect and courtesy?
I believe that it really doesn't make a difference, one way or another, and that if you two were MEANT TO BE, as a couple, and if she GENUINELY LOVED YOU, and would RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES . . . that you can't screw it up.
I believe that, I really do. I believe that had she really been sincere that she wanted to make this work, then NEITHER way -- the "tough love" or the "softer stance" -- would have blown your chances out of the water.
See, the dirty little secret here is, all we really do around here is play the percentages. Try to help people maximize their chances for success. And after studying literally THOUSANDS of affairs the past six years, my experience has been that "tough love" -- aggressive confrontation and exposure, maximum strength legal stance -- coupled with civility, truthfulness, character and loving detachment . . . is 10x more effective than the "Little Bo-Peep" method (you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them"), and 20x more effective than the "try to be their best friend, and 'win them over' method."
You did your best. Hold your head up. And it ain't necessarily over, either.
Look, she crossed the boundaries, and she knows it. Now, she wants you to be pleasant about it. What world is she living on? Forgiveness takes time. And it needs a person capable of being sorry for what they did. Note: your Subject Title. Why would you need to forgive something she doesn't regret.
Exactly. That has been my problem all along, hence the name of the thread. She doesn't regret what she did, she doesn't want to regret it, and she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of an apology for something she feels no remorse over.
I am sick of feeling so unvalued. I am sick of feeling like I need to work so hard to get scraps of appreciation. I am sick of feeling like I need to watch everything I say for fear I make the situation worse. I am getting so much more from other parts of my life, and I think it's time I left all this crap behind and put my all into what makes me feel good about myself.
I think my H still feels very sad he hurt me so deeply. I honestly don't doubt that for a minute. The problem is, feeling sad you hurt somebody isn't enough in this type of situation because if you were THAT sad about it, you would stop the behavior that is causing all the hurt.
I have no less than 1700 e-mails from my H that say "I never meant to hurt a hair on your head and I am sorry you are hurt but gotta go, OW doesn't want me talking to you and we are about to go out then come home and screw". He didn't say that verbatim but it was the general theme. Sorry you are hurt but I don't plan to take any accountability for my actions or stop hurting you.. but sorry you are.
Look, she crossed the boundaries, and she knows it. Now, she wants you to be pleasant about it. What world is she living on? Forgiveness takes time. And it needs a person capable of being sorry for what they did. Note: your Subject Title. Why would you need to forgive something she doesn't regret.
Exactly. That has been my problem all along, hence the name of the thread. She doesn't regret what she did, she doesn't want to regret it, and she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of an apology for something she feels no remorse over.
I am sick of feeling so unvalued. I am sick of feeling like I need to work so hard to get scraps of appreciation. I am sick of feeling like I need to watch everything I say for fear I make the situation worse. I am getting so much more from other parts of my life, and I think it's time I left all this crap behind and put my all into what makes me feel good about myself.
I agree with what this guy said
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
There is no ONE WAY. But I also believe, in my heart of hearts, that even if you make a HORRIBLE MISTAKE, and choose the wrong way? But you are basically loving and genuine, and still authentically "you" as you do so? And you treat your WAS with respect and courtesy?
I believe that it really doesn't make a difference, one way or another, and that if you two were MEANT TO BE, as a couple, and if she GENUINELY LOVED YOU, and would RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES . . . that you can't screw it up.
I believe that, I really do. I believe that had she really been sincere that she wanted to make this work, then NEITHER way -- the "tough love" or the "softer stance" -- would have blown your chances out of the water.
That's been my fear all along. That she doesn't really love me, and doesn't really respect me. She decided a long time ago that I didn't deserve her love any more. Did she have valid reasons? Yes, some, but there were many good things in our life too. She threw in the towel a long time ago, and I've been trying to get her to pick it back up ever since. Our kids, our marriage, our memories, and even the warm vibe we feel when we talk just doesn't mean that much to her. She wants to be free to be with whomever she wants, and free to do whatever she wants.
The fact is, there are people on these forums (Hope4Us comes to mind) who took an INCREDIBLY patient, softer stance (altho even HE coupled it with aggressive exposure; it's really only the LENGTH of his patience that was remarkable), and it worked.
This is the kind of the path I was on, and I think it did actually have a chance of working, but that's just it. I'm not sure I wanted it to work. I didn't think I could ever truly hold my head up in our marriage and get the respect I deserve if I just maintained a soft stance and waited until she finally had her fill of the single life, then decided maybe I wasn't so bad after all. I needed to call her out, to MAKE her show her true colors. As you say Puppy, if she did truly love me, my hard stance wouldn't have been met the way it was, at first with venomous anger, then secret plotting to get a better divorce agreement. She would have shown me sadness, and reached out and expressed regret for what she did.
Your W sounds much like my H. Mad that we can't read minds. Mad that we did as they wanted (let them go) but didn't keep asking what was going on their heads. Why bother? All of it was a lie anyhow. The night before our separation was finalized my H gave me the most passionate speech I have ever heard come from his mouth. How he didn't care if it took the rest of his life but he would work until his dying day to earn my trust and respect back and make things right between us. He also said he knew I did everything in my power to turn this situation around and I deserved better. He said he understands and accepts I have no reason to trust him but he would work, work, work until I did.
And then I NEVER heard from him again other than a few e-mails about assets and another e-mail to tell me what a terrible person I was for not wishing him a happy T-day. He reminds me of OJ Simpson who spent years looking for his W's killer on golf courses (note to OJ: to find your W's killer look in the mirror).
Wow. Weird. Love the OJ Simpson joke!
My W has periodically sent me messages indicating her great sorrow over all this. They were never backed up with anything real either.
