She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me,
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[/quote] BULLSHIRT!! The OM has always been there... he never left her thoughts. If I'm not mistaken, isn't this around the same "mating season" when she went over there the last time?[/quote]
He's always been there indeed. Her "proposal" seems pretty well-thought-out, doesn't it Future? I wonder how long she (and, no doubt, OM) have been working on it? Sure seemed like it was at-the-ready all of a sudden, hmmmm??
Things haven't exactly worked out the way I wanted.
I spoke with my W a couple days ago, and she said my behavior has convinced her once and for all that she's done with me. She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me, and here's the kicker, she says she's going to be spending time abroad, and she's going to take the kids with her, for up to 3 weeks at a time. She is not bluffing. I think when I "dumped" her, she went running back to OM, and is now convinced he is where her future lies.
I don't know if my actions caused this, or merely exposed what she wanted all along, but I am a wreck.
this is refered to as deja-poo.
which leads me to re-iterate the obvious, you are flip-flopping.
Your actions have done nothing but protect your interests. So, don't whimp out now --- this is just the first part of the negotiation, she's aiming high. Just decide that the kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. They don't go anywhere without the permission of both of you. Works both ways. Your money is not funding little soiree's to visit her OM. In fact, your offer should go lower than it was before. Only child support when they are with her, no spouse support. You have the children during the week, and every other weekend. If she is out of the country, the child support stops, since she will be living with someone else, one assumes.
I don't think your WAW ever 'left' OM. This has been one big game to get as much as she can from you so she can be with OM. Look how the OM acts --- he is in another country, and she is running after him. He will not come to her. She will even take her kids to him, if she can get away with it. There is your cue --- make her come to you. If you have any chance at all in getting your family back together, IMHO, it's going to be to be tougher than OM. Give her as little as you can possible, and get as much custody as you can. BTW, is the country where OM resides a 'safe' country, or one that has high crime, and unstable government? If so, these can all be pointed out to the mediator/legal counsel.
Did she make this statement in front of witnesses? Like the mediator? Anyway, now you know what her plan is, what her thoughts are. She has no idea what you are going to do. So, my advice would be to go to the extreme --- that is: NC except with swopping children (and I would say get a third party for this, if possible), all verbal (including this) and written negotiations by your WAW should be handed to your mediator and lawyer (although, she didn't really couch this in a negotiation tone, but more like a declaration), note my idea above on what you should offer, get legal separation and custody done as quickly as possible.
Your WAS has had this on her mind for a long, long time while you were flapping in the wind, trying to find a way to get her back. You have to understand, she is NOT coming back. She is gone. She has no intention of coming back (probably why she never comes into the house). Don't let her take everything you have worked for, your kids, and dignity, with her and hand it on a platter to OM. Time to suit up, and fight for your kids, if nothing else. In the meantime, continue with the GAL, stay calm, keep a positive attitude, be not submissive. I know how hard this must be for you, but think about your children now. You cannot be a wreck at a time like this. They need you more than ever now.
Sorry so long, but I feel you need to shake yourself out of your despondency and get to work. Take control, get tough, go dark and get a lawyer. Be done with her, so that you can move on.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Thanks for all the responses. I am doing better now, but wow, I guess I'm not as strong as I thought. This really hit me hard.
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She only became nicer toward you because you were dutifully following her exit plan. Once you stood up for yourself, and refused to share her with another man, the niceness disappeared . . . am I right?
Her niceness disappeared when I dumped her. I was never quite dutifully following her exit plan. I have been essentially dictating all along what I would and wouldn't agree to regarding our legal separation, but I've also been fairly obvious that I very much wanted her back. She was mostly cooperating with my terms in mediation, as she just wanted to get it over with. I seem to have pushed too far though, and now she's saying "F*CK IT, if he wants to be an a**hole, I can be one too". I don't think she in any way sees my being tough in mediation as a way of fighting for her or my M. She sees it as me being a bully and trying to punish her for betraying me.
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This is a very common mistake that betrayed spouses make. They misdiagnose their wayward spouse's "niceness" as an indication that they are on the right path, rather than measuring it by things like:
- have they ended their contact with the OM/OW?
- are they doing The Right Things in their marriage and in their family?
- are they now agreeing to things like counseling (MC and/or IC), Retrouvaille, etc., whereas before they refused to?
- are they making demonstrable moves back toward the marriage and the family?
And then when we spot naivete, and advocate a stronger stance (including exposing the affair, getting legally and financially protected, not moving out of your own home/bedroom/bed, etc.), the wayward spouse gets angry, and spews "NOW YOU'VE BLOWN ANY CHANCE YOU HAD!"
. . . and the betrayed spouse things that "Well, now I've made a big mistake. My wife WAS being 'nice' to me, and now she's not, and so I must have really blown it."
Yeah, I was mistaking her niceness as indication she wanted to reconcile with me, although it was more her continued reaching out to me that did it. Her texts and calls out of nowhere, her inviting me to do things with her and the kids, the times she seemed to genuinely enjoy being with me.
But no, she didn't do any of the things you listed, except I believe she did break off contact with OM, although she gave me no way to verify that. She did also want to read the book "Love Without Hurt" when I mentioned how much it meant to me. Her mother told me her A was over, although she said it was OM who ended it. When I talked with my W a few days ago, she said the reason she was avoiding me was that she is broken hearted, and she didn't think it was fair for her to lean on me when she was in that state. She said she had regained some feelings for me, but it wasn't very strong, and that I needed to be much more patient and let her go through her grieving without pushing her. She said once I bullied her again in mediation, she said that was it, her feelings for me are gone, and she's done. I agree, that's probably BS. She wouldn't be acting quite as vengeful as she is if her feelings were truly gone.
I am feeling like I was actually on the right track, but that I made a wrong move, and now I've just done more damage.
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I know her words sting, but she's never really agreed to your boundary ("I won't live in an open marriage") . . . has she?
Yes, her words do sting. I'm shocked at my reaction to her proposal. She never really did agree to my boundary. She said she was done with OM, and that she wasn't INTERESTED in dating anyone else. That's not nearly the same thing as saying she would remain faithful to our M, is it?
I do believe she was considering returning to our M, but only if she could do it on her terms, and without really being held accountable for her A. She said I haven't owned my part in all this, which is complete BS. I have poured my heart out to her owning my failures. She said I will never forgive her for what she's done, and I'll hold it over her forever. She said she aplogized (she did?), but that it wasn't enough for me, nothing ever will be.
She's rattling her saber to punish you. Previously on FutureUnknown (channel 258)
WAW: I want to hold off mediation until Jan FUN: No! Not this time! I won't bend! In mediation... FUN sticks up for himself.
WAW thinks... SH!T That SOB won't toe the line anymore. That A$$HOLE!!! I'm gonna rip him a new one! I'm gonna kick him where it hurts. Where can I do that? What are his fear? YEAH!!
So my friend... this is called spew... you've gotten the hissy fit... just not the way you expected it.
i.e. You've been busy shredding apart her "wonderful fantasy" of being able to do whatever she wants. Now she wants to do the same to you.
It's called Emotional Blackmail!!! Get back in line or else... See?
Hold the line!
Gnosis, that sounds exactly right. She is trying to punish me. She knew what to say to hurt me, and it worked.
Her "proposal" also says she gets the kids every Christmas Eve and morning, so they have "stability". Wow.
which leads me to re-iterate the obvious, you are flip-flopping.
Interesting. I've said all along this is a LRT to try to get her to turn around, but I've also noticed lately how motivated and excited I'm getting to date other women. I've realized I'm free and can do what I want.
I also wonder if my W's "proposal" wasn't motivated by her hearing from the kids about this other woman in my life. During our talk she did ask me "Has your situation changed?" At this point I think she wanted to know that as legal ammunition to use against me.
Your actions have done nothing but protect your interests. So, don't whimp out now --- this is just the first part of the negotiation, she's aiming high. Just decide that the kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. They don't go anywhere without the permission of both of you. Works both ways. Your money is not funding little soiree's to visit her OM. In fact, your offer should go lower than it was before. Only child support when they are with her, no spouse support. You have the children during the week, and every other weekend. If she is out of the country, the child support stops, since she will be living with someone else, one assumes.
The kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. I'll take that one to the highest court in the land. Her profession conveniently offers some training in the city that OM lives in. She is portraying that she is going there for that training, and to give the kids valuable exposure to other cultures. I guess the fact that OM lives there is just a fortunate coincidence.
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I don't think your WAW ever 'left' OM. This has been one big game to get as much as she can from you so she can be with OM. Look how the OM acts --- he is in another country, and she is running after him. He will not come to her. She will even take her kids to him, if she can get away with it. There is your cue --- make her come to you. If you have any chance at all in getting your family back together, IMHO, it's going to be to be tougher than OM. Give her as little as you can possible, and get as much custody as you can. BTW, is the country where OM resides a 'safe' country, or one that has high crime, and unstable government? If so, these can all be pointed out to the mediator/legal counsel.
I'm not sure exactly what happened with OM, but I agree. The fact that he's so inaccessible is making him all the more attractive to her. It just seems so bloody counter intuitive to cut off from her to make her want to come back. I've taken whatever chances I can get to bank up good times and good memories with her. That appears to be futile, although I'm perplexed as to why. The country OM lives in is a safe country, and is part of the Haig Convention, but that hardly helped in the Brazil situation, did it?
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Did she make this statement in front of witnesses? Like the mediator? Anyway, now you know what her plan is, what her thoughts are. She has no idea what you are going to do. So, my advice would be to go to the extreme --- that is: NC except with swopping children (and I would say get a third party for this, if possible), all verbal (including this) and written negotiations by your WAW should be handed to your mediator and lawyer (although, she didn't really couch this in a negotiation tone, but more like a declaration), note my idea above on what you should offer, get legal separation and custody done as quickly as possible.
Her statement about taking the kids abroad is in a proposal document she handed me this morning. She wants to meet Friday evening to discuss it. I said I would, but that was before I read it.
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Your WAS has had this on her mind for a long, long time while you were flapping in the wind, trying to find a way to get her back. You have to understand, she is NOT coming back. She is gone. She has no intention of coming back (probably why she never comes into the house). Don't let her take everything you have worked for, your kids, and dignity, with her and hand it on a platter to OM. Time to suit up, and fight for your kids, if nothing else. In the meantime, continue with the GAL, stay calm, keep a positive attitude, be not submissive. I know how hard this must be for you, but think about your children now. You cannot be a wreck at a time like this. They need you more than ever now.
She has had this on her mind for a long time. She mentioned it back last spring after one of her trips to see OM, and it resulted in a HUGE fight between us. I told her the kids were NEVER going to leave this country, and she said "That's only because your jealous! Why else would you deny them that wonderful experience?" I said "You don't want me telling them why, I promise you, you really don't."
I don't think she is coming back. I will fight for my kids as much as I have to. I will remain calm and strong.
Future, hang in there. Be strong. Tell yourself that W has gotten way too much of you already and she doesn't get ANY MORE. She just doesn't get any more of you. Stay calm, don't give her any more of your emotions, your brain OR your money than you have to. It's not a fight. It's just not giving any more. Period. You need YOU for yourself and for your kids.
It is so hard to process grief when the "dead" person is in your face, and messing with your mind as though you were the one who did the betraying. At a certain point, you've got to turn it over to the lawyers, have them fight for you, and focus on your own future. Besides, most of the legal stuff is already decided under the law. Your particular situation or your emotions don't change the outcome of what a judge will decide. Just ask the lawyer what the judge is likely to do, and you'll know what to fight and what not to fight. I'm finding there isn't a lot of wiggleroom, at least where I live.
Future, you've got a good future. You've had enough trauma already. Take some deep breaths and get through the divorce as fast as you can. That's what my very smart family is telling me, and I'm trying to follow their suggestions! Just get through it, and when you are out the other side, you are going to be fine. You've learned a lot. This isn't the last relationship for you. If you let her go, you will have happiness again and you can do things differently. If you keep hanging on, you are just spinning in a circle.
Oh, and for the discussions about what she wants. That's why you are paying a mediator. DON'T meet with her to talk about it on Friday. That will get you nowhere. All talks about settlements and custody need to go through the mediator. That's their job. To mediate so you don't have to fight in a restaurant or yell on the telephone or lose sleep. With the mediator, just calmly state your position, without escalating your emotions, and ask the mediator what the law says and how a judge would rule on it. They will know.
Future - I think you and I live in the same state IIRC.
My attny was also a certified mediator. Obviously he cannot rep a client and also mediate but I did learn SO much as his skill set crosses over even though he was *my* attny.
Anyhow, my attny will not mediate between a couple unless BOTH parties are repped by individual counsel. So, he would meet with the couple as a mediator and help the couple reach a settlement. Then both spouses would take the proposed settlement to their legal counsel for review. He will also not mediate with a couple if one spouse waives their rights to counsel and they use one attny. In this state it is suicide but I think you know that.
The second I read your W's proposal I thought about the Brazil case as well. If your W wants the children to be exposed to other cultures tell her to take them to a museum!
The "formula" my attny helped me establish was as follows:
1. What I am 110% unwilling under any circumstance to bend on
2. What I might possibly bend on if the counter offer is appropriate
3. Things I am willing to bend on (which essentially were not important to me and merely created leverage and a false sense of goodwill with my H)
I am so sorry you have to deal with all of this. I know it is so easy to say "do this" and "don't do that" but I wish I would have followed my attnys plan from the get go (NOT talking to H). Especially if opposing counsel does not practice law in a "clean" way. And sadly, in this state most WAS who are in an affair and have lots at stake (and I don't mean money) will retain the "snake" attny as they are in the wrong and unlike most states, our state *is* a "fault" state.
I am not sure how to give you my contact info but if you ever need any moral support as you navigate through this mess of a family court system find me on the boards. I can really relate to it being a very difficult journey.
Stay strong and keep in mind your W is *really* missing out!
