my W doesn't regret her affair

[Gnosis]

You flop now she wins because she'll know she has you by the b@lls. It aint over until fat lady justice farts when the judge bangs the gavel.

Stick to your guns. It may be just what she needs to shake her head out her a$$. She's left you hanging and kept stringing you on for an entire year while she was having fun. Keep shaking the tree and creating crisis until she falls out of it and lands back on terra firma.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Ok, whack away!

Consider yourself WHACKED.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to try to save your marriage or now. But it's up to you. Doing things the way you're describing have NOT worked for you, and I have never SEEN them work (and I have studied literally THOUSANDS of these things). But again, it's your call.

Puppy

[BeingMe]

I can just continue along the path I'm on, stay extremely distant, pursue the separation, and see if she reaches back to me.

Do this! It seems as if she is the one whose emotions chop and change each time you communicate. No matter whether there was a tinge of revenge --- it's done now, so DO NOT back off.

Whack, whack, whack --- for even thinking of being passive again. If she wanted to get back with you, she would've let you know the A was over before having you request it. That would've been a huge indication that she wanted to get back together. But, now she feels she was 'forced'. It's gonna take awhile before she thinks of you romantically again, I think.

Stick to your plan, or just get yourself castrated and hand the result in a pretty box, as a parting gift to your W for Christmas.

Sorry, that's how I see it, and it makes me mad when you are so obviously manipulated, but maybe you're too close to the sitch and don't see it for what it is.

[Gnosis]

Stick to your plan, or just get yourself castrated and hand the result in a pretty box, as a parting gift to your W for Christmas.

Amen sister BM.

[futureunknown]

That's why I love this board.

Thanks for the whacks. I guess I just need to hear them. I wasn't even going to post out of sheer embarassment, and in the past I would have just acted, then came here and reported what happened, so at least I've progressed that far.

I am willing to stick to my guns and pursue the separation, but I'm not sure if I buy into Gnosis's philosophy of being vicious. I can strongly state my case and stick to my guns, but I don't see how being vicious does anything other than create animosity and destroy our R further. Does being vicious generate respect?

The last year has shown me that being reasonable and emotionally available doesn't work, as you say Puppy. Even I get it eventually! This would be so much easier if it weren't for our three little kids. My heart bleeds for them.

A very close friend of mine is a WAW (maybe too close), so I take her advice very seriously. She is my weapon against my W's manipulation. Last night she said my sending that e-mail was a bit cowardly, instead of confronting my W face to face. That hurts. But, she says she understands why, given the way my W has been acting, and she says I should push for the separation, then give my W the next year to make a move back toward me. She has been a great friend to have through all this. She is a classic WAW, and her H has been clearly demonstrating exactly what NOT to do, i.e. beg, plead, lash out, be generally needy and unstable. I see with my own eyes how it makes her long to be away from him. The more needy he is, the more repulsed she is.

My friend is impressed at how I've handled myself through this, except that she's been relentlessly telling me to cut off emotionally from my W. She says that is the only way to force my W to make a decision. When I tell her I worry my W is too proud and insecure to ever come back with her hat in her hand, she says then my W isn't worth having back. She thinks my W has been acting very erratic and manipulative, and believes deep down my W still loves me, or is at least dependent on me in some way. She says if her H sent her an e-mail like I sent, she would just roll her eyes and say "whatever" and ignore it.

Ok, consider me sufficiently whacked. Now I need to decide how to handle the mediation session. Gnosis thinks I should be vicious. I'm not sure about that. Up until now, I've been paying my W voluntary child support, mainly because I understand if I didn't, my W could apply for emergency support from me, and get it, and probably a lot more than I give her, so I haven't pushed against that. If I want to send a strong message that my "nice guy" days are over, I could tell her I won't pay her another cent until we have an agreement that compels me to. That's my main leverage point right now. Otherwise, I will lay out my proposals for the separation, which are highly favorable to me, and stick to them, hard. Let her realize how unfavorable this is going to be to her, and how her future plans are looking pretty grim as a result of her actions. Unfortunately, our kids' futures are also significantly diminished, emotionally and financially. :-(

[Puppy Dog Tails]

If you want advice on how to play Legal/Financial Hardball, while maintaining a loving stance, ask Coach.

He is the master at that.

Puppy

[BeingMe]

No viciousness -- calm, in command of your emotions, adult, firm. Does your W not earn as much as you? Or, not? If you have 50-50 child custody, and your W earns about the same, then surely you don't have to pay child support? I'm just throwing out thoughts here.

You don't have to lose the "Mr. Nice Guy" --- just be "Mr. Nice Steadfast Guy." The kids will gain from there being some stability --- that they know there will be no R, that this is the way things will be and they can move on from there.

Good to have the insider WAW friend.

Don't try and imagine what's going on in your W's head --- there is no controlling it, or manipulating it. Just do what you know is right for YOU!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yeah, the trick is to learn to be a nice guy, without being a Nice Guy.

[futureunknown]

In the mediation sessions so far, I've been proud of myself that I've represented myself and my future well, and not rolled over at all. One session back in July I let my emotions get the best of me and I got quite beligerent, which I regret, and I've aplogized for. My W knows mediation is one place I have the upper hand. Her manipulation hasn't worked well there, because I'm an engineer, and the business-like nature of mediation doesn't lend itself to emotional manipulation. Besides, the mediator stops her when she's going off on some emotional tangent.

I think I just need to work a bit on the loving stance. I'll research Coach's advice in that area.

After our very first mediation session, where I think I shocked my W with how solid I was, we walked out together. She looked like an emotional wreck. I gave her a hug and said I just wanted her to be happy. I said "I'm sorry I didn't make you happy." About six months later she mentioned that as something that meant very much to her.

[Gnosis]

Seems az I gots sum 'splainin' ta do...

Future, here's my original quote:

Meet her at the table to show you're not scared of her. Don't back down, play hardball. Take as much as you can. Don't be fair. It's time to be vicious.

So.. by vicious I meant:

- show NO fear,
- don't back down on your demands,
- show strength and conviction (not wussy I'm not really sure...)
- demand what you want, not what she thinks is fair. And don't back down (not at this point) e.g 75/25 custody, child support etc.

I did NOT mean:

- You behave like a jerk
- You be mean and nasty
- You be vindictive

The purpose is to show strength and create respect. I added in the original post that if you do this, she will definitely walk away from the table. And... guess what... that's OK. Because it buys you more time.

You get what you're aiming for: A CRISIS that will shake her up and get her focused on thinking about you. Heck man, sometimes you want to get her angry. Angry is better than apathy or scorn. So what if she thinks you're being unreasonable. You're paying for it right? You want her to be thinking about you... At this moment she isn't, her attention is focused on OM, their fantasy and herself. So, any thought about you is a bonus. What are you scared of? Losing her? She's already gone and she's on her own timetable. In other words this is called, "Rocking the boat."

OK, now I'm going to dissect your last post:

I am willing to stick to my guns and pursue the separation, but I'm not sure if I buy into Gnosis's philosophy of being vicious.

Got it and hope I covered it above.

The last year has shown me that being reasonable and emotionally available doesn't work

Yup. So 180...

A very close friend of mine is a WAW so I take her advice very seriously.

And you should. You have the best source of intel on the planet. Follow it.

she says I should push for the separation, then give my W the next year to make a move back toward me.

Very wise woman.

she's been relentlessly telling me to cut off emotionally from my W.

I was only able to stop the needy, clingy behavior myself once I managed to disconnect my own emotions from the sitch. It's not easy and they do tend to flare up every now and again.

She says that is the only way to force my W to make a decision.

Or to make it seem like you're hell-bent on getting what YOU want out of this... while making her think that she is going to lose you forever... to another woman.

When I tell her I worry my W is too proud and insecure to ever come back with her hat in her hand, she says then my W isn't worth having back.

I agree with your friend.

She thinks my W has been acting very erratic and manipulative, and believes deep down my W still loves me, or is at least dependent on me in some way.

Your wife IS manipulative. No, I don't think she is erratic. She's had a whole year to mess you around and get what she wants. i.e. Future dangling on a string while she fishes around for better options behind his back... and maybe... just maybe... if there's nothing better at the time... take him back until something pops up.

Up until now, I've been paying my W voluntary child support, mainly because I understand if I didn't, my W could apply for emergency support from me, and get it, and probably a lot more than I give her, so I haven't pushed against that.

So take the CS off the mediation table. If it comes up, you say, "What we have in place at the moment is perfectly reasonable and I'm happy with that. This is not open to negotiation. Next issue..."

If I want to send a strong message that my "nice guy" days are over, I could tell her I won't pay her another cent until we have an agreement that compels me to.

And that's another option you can use to enforce the previous response.

I will lay out my proposals for the separation, which are highly favorable to me, and stick to them, hard.

And that's being 'vicious' in my book.

Unfortunately, our kids' futures are also significantly diminished, emotionally and financially.

I'm sorry about that. One thing you need to realize though is that if things go according to her timetable and plan... the outcome will not change.

========= Feedback Ends =============

With that out of the way I'd like to ask you another question:

If you had a choice would you prefer your WAW be indifferent with you or angry?

From my side, I'd much rather have an angry W... because anger is an emotion and it means there is some feeling left inside the alien. Indifference or apathy is surefire death. Honest confession here... I sometimes push Mrs Gno's buttons on purpose just to check if she's still alive... if you know what I mean. I do that because I know if she can generate that much passion with anger, then the opposite still hold true.

I'm open to 2x4's on my maniacal, manipulative ways...