K4D Rising #4

[K4D]

25,

I also know you want to see me apply to myself what you are taking the time to tell me and help me with. I am trying to apply much of it. It is that whole consistancy thing that gets me and I have trouble staying consistant when I start new things.

Kevin

[K4D]

Just a quick note, FaithfulH said that his W reverted back to her maiden name when they were going through their process and she still has it as her maiden name. He said don't put any worries into that.

Kevin

[K4D]

Kevin,
It's your job to stand up for yourself, not theirs or anyone else's. Ask yourself why you haven't stood up to her, not them...You could have calmly said "no, it's my time with them, maybe some other day"... or you could have granted the wish, which you did, but in a way that set a boundary and showed some spine. (E.G, "glad she appreciated it, b/c it's the last time since I don't intend to be shut out of my own d's lives any more, and I'd never treat her this way."....)

I have stood up to her in the past which is one reason there is so much hatred towards me. But in this case, I have not been allowed to be seen by her, talk to her, be around her property, or even be in the same section as her when my kids were involved. How was I supposed to stand up to her? She has threatened me with a restraining order when I just made simple conversation with her.

Nevertheless, you did not incur further wrath from her and You were "stunned" by your wife and her mother saying "thanks" and this seems to be a great comfort to you. Okay, that's fine. Maybe it will make some things easier. Perhaps your mil feels that you "get it" now and won't read into things too much if you get invited to something, so she can relax- and --so can your w.

I did get the official invite tonight for Christmas. However, it did bring up questions in my mind. I wasn't invited to my D11's birthday dinner last night with everyone. MIL and her H were going to go out of town for Christmas. Now they aren't due to lack of money. W I know told them that I have the girls for Christmas and I would definitely not give them up for that. I almost wonder if this is nothing more than to get my girls over there and she is willing to put up with my presence to have her grand daughters there for Christmas since she isn't leaving out of town now.

Also, I had a new bank card issued to me and when I went to pull money out of the ATM yesterday, it asked me if I wanted to pull from checking account 1 or 2. I figured since I have a new card it meant 2 as I have my own bank account. Well, I selected 2 and it ended up pulling from W's/our account instead of mine. When I discovered this I called her to let her know. She was cool with it, but said it was time to take me off of her/our account. I agreed with her and showed no emotion. But it bugged me.

In a recent post remarkable for its' lack of insight and your projection onto others, you said that you think "Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, have OP or do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore."

Well now Kevin, I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony b/c I don't know where to begin. You are so wrong on so many levels here...and you still don't get it.

You simply projected your own dependency onto others, thinking that "most people" are as needy as you and that "most people" use others to fill their needs….Wow, I disagree so much. As for "relying on companionship" that's NOT what you are doing or saying, when you talk of "filling someone else's needs" and I hope to God you know that. Companionship is a human need. But you mean something else...something clingy that is a R with a woman, and with one exception whom you met at a bar recently, you have convinced yourself that the only woman who can "fill your needs" is the woman who doesn't want to fill them anymore.

I can appreciate what you are saying here. However, you yourself have even posted that if things didn't work out with you and H, you know you are attractive and can find someone else in the future to make you happy. Even CG has talked about the latest attention and possibilites of someone else. Infact, everyone except a few such as volleydog have posted some sort of thought towards another person on here if things didn't work out. So in some ways, I stand by what I said. However, if it makes everyone feel better, I will retract it as to help them feel better about their own situations.

You had a M in which you admit you dumped the ahrd parts on her...the child care, the money earning max, the housework AND the decision making and the socializing...so I have to ask, what's different about you now? How would your m to her be different today? What would SHE get out of it? That's NOT a question to answer quickly....

You also say your w is very social and has a ton of friends. Sounds like she had a life or She GAL. So, Are you making any new friends or learning anything new and interesting, or appreciating how great your other family is, or joining new things or taking classes or...growing?

Lets put this into the perspective it really is. My W used sex to try and get the guy she was after. She used it again when I blew that one out of the water. GAL for her? Not so sure. But I agree that GAL is not about her, but about me. I am actually thinking about taking a sewing class with D11 since it has become something she is really interested in. I think I could find it fun to as I have some ideas on things that would be creative and fun to give a try to.

As for your numbers ("most people that claim"..) from my experience here, and in real life, I disagree strongly. Here are some of my observations.

I detached and moved on in my sitch, without an OM anywhere in sight or in my mind. Didn't even expect to date in the forseeable future, as my youngest was 8. I detached without OP. SO did CG, so did Brandnewday, so did FIB, so did Was2Sad, so did Iansofaway, so did Shark, AmyC, Holly06, BaseballAnnie, and so many others. How did you miss this??

Kevin, Anyone who "needed" OP to detach, by definition is NOT detaching. Yes, some people in life, some LBSers, do meet other folks and date them and THEN realize, "OMG, my WAS is not the one and only for me…" [b]and that lesson has value. But that's not the lesson you took from it.

No, it was not. And I am still not completely sure I am wrong on that one.

How did you miss that key point? GAL and detaching do NOT require OP...it's sort of the opposite... I guess all the celibate people we know are unfulfilled & unhealthy people with tons of unmet needs…(like your priest, or the folks whos' spouses are at war, or missing in action or simply far away, or the happy single people I know, the content widower down the street...)

You should meet some happy singles so you know they exist. Or some happily married people who would be happy even if their spouses died, they'd still learn to be content within, and on their own...and you don't have that yet-- but you need it to make any of your dreams come true.

My priest is the exception. Most people I have met that are single are looking for someone. Again, it goes back to what I said.

You've been here a long time to still be posting about your wife at all. Unless she comes to you and says outright that she'd like to reconcile, what else is there to say, but how to work out the details of the children's lives? Until IF and when you have a real sign of something like a reconciliation, you'll keep spinning out of control over the simplest gestures or words and if anything, you push her farther away with this same old behavior. Isn't that clear to you by now? Maybe she wants a R with you that allows for your company around her and the girls so she doesn't have to continue being cold to you so that she's not in danger of "leading you on" or having you assume so much...negative or positive. You read so much into so much. You need to GAL so that you have other things in your head. You have too much time on your hands to face your empty hours. Fill them with a real life. And soon.

I have moved on. I am talking with other women. I am moving forward without her. I want her back. But I am no longer sitting around waiting for her to come back. Call me a fallen stander. It is probably true. But I am not interested in spending the rest of my life alone even if it costs me my soul. Short sighted it is. But I have my limits which I have come to realize.

Stop caressing & analyzing the scraps your w gives you, i.e., a slight act of kindness or a word of thanks for caving in to her family, again, b/c you saved her a scene with her mom. If you had spent half the energy on GAL that you do on worrying and obsessing about your wife, imagine where your life would be by now. Imagine how you'd appear.

This is now you reading my W's mind. She is so far gone and unless I hit the lottery or an awesome career soon, she has no interst in me.

Also -your wife said "Don't get your hopes up" about the invite from her mom..so--you post it here with your hopes obviously getting higher--but I dread hearing the after action report of how that night goes, IF it even happens...K4, did you hear your wife? Why do you think she said that to you? What do you think she meant for you to realize?

She meant for me to realize that I need not to expect anything from her and her family like I have in the past.

And Why do you think she changed her name to remove the name you once shared? Does it seem like a gesture towards reconciliation to you?

You seem to have this idea that I am somehow convinced that she wants to reconcile with me. I am no fool. I know for a fact that she wants nothing to do with me.

I think She wants a civil R with you. You claim you want that with her family. So if they invite you to something, please take it easy! NO assumptions about anything. Otherwise you will set yourself (and your d's) up for the coming let down and frustration, all the time. Aren't you tired of this? It's self inflicted pain and drama Kevin. It really is. And if you do go there and spend ANY time with her family, do not drink at all. Sure, it goes without saying...(or does it? I bet they're a huge trigger for you - and that past holidays, or times you have been drinking around them, did NOT go well and they remember those times better than you do.)

My W's family is the biggest bunch of drinkers there is. My drinking had no affect on them. W's mom is truly a drunk that has never been able to move past it. They always laughed and told stories about my ventures with them.

Please, K4, make some holiday plans of your own so that Christmas doesn't suck for you, and so it won't suck for the girls when they're with you. NO self pity! It'll show to your girls and besides, Christmas is always December 25th and you have a calendar. You knew it was coming. We told you back in September to make plans of your own and here you are in December, wondering what OTHERS will include you in...that's not taking charge of your life or planning for your girls or doing a damn thing, Kevin...Wouldn't that look like "same old K" as far as your w is concerned?

I admit I had no Christmas plans other than to just work through it and hope it passes by fast. However, I am planning on things to do with my kids. I am also going to get my guitar back and start playing again. I may never do anything with it other than dream. But I used to play in bands and I was pretty damn good. And I loved it and still do. I think I can get my girls really interested in music. That is something I truly love doing. It was always like an esacpe for me when I was younger. Strange thing is that W asked if me and the girls could come over this Saturday to help her decorate her tree since she didn't get to do it with the girls when she had them. I know it was nothing more than just to get the girls over there so she didn't feel alone in decorating. But at the same time in my mind, she would have them the following week to do it. Why ask me to come over with them to do it? Throws me off.

Please-read Antlers post on detachment. I don't think you processed it. It's the first step of many you will have to take to happy on your own. I'm so sorry you cannot see this, or won't.

Okay, sorry but I have to ask....Why did you have your phone/gadget mailed to your wife? Yes sure sure--I realize you don't trust the mail at your apartment...blah blah blah, but honestly, there was no one else in your life you could ask? Um, if you truly are someone who "relies on companionship" you need some more companions!

Does this truly matter? I still have a lot of my mail delivered to her/our house.

And then you had to call her to track its' arrival? What? I just wonder what is going on in your head....and how old you think your behavior looks to her. On one hand, you should not obsess about your wife's opinions, or how she feels on a given day --but surely you can see that your behaviormatters and is viewed by others and that if you can't see how it'll be viewed, that does not help your cause.

Kevin, for this Christmas & New Year, I hope you decide to get the tools you need to grow into being the man you and God, and your parents want you to become. It will require changing your course. It will require action AND detachment. What are you so afraid of? Is what you are getting from this "interaction" with her, this sliver of hope you see and cling to, enough to live off of for the rest of your life?

No. Hince, I was damn close to filing myself.

If you "must" date some OW to get on your feet, emotionally, and you are honest with them, so be it. (Just Don't call it 'detachment" or tell US that "most people" do it or imply that we did. Those I mentioned to you above, well, we let go of our situations and left the results up to God and CHOSE to be happy with our lives as they were/are). But I think you are one of the few who really cannot do this on their own or you would have done it by now. No judgement there, but don't hurl it back and say we're all like that.

Just do what you need to go to learn to be a healthy man. Right now the caving & obsessing you do about your wife's every move, is very sad and toxic and not getting you anywhere while another year has passed! Is this where you thought you'd be now? The obsessing has gone on way too long for a man your age.

Re-read Antler's and CG's and Breakaway's posts and read up on Detachment and just reflect (for more than a day or two) on where you are this year and where you want to be next year...

For a minute or 20, imagine yourself happy and without your wife OR any OW, and see if the sky Will fall down if you don't have a woman in your bed "filling your needs"? No. The sky won't fall down. Maybe you'll read more, join more, know more, love more, learn more, do more, and be more...

What will you be doing to be a happy healthy mature man of 36, next year? It cannot be more of the same or you will get more of the same.

Remember the definition of insanity--"repeating the same behavior, but expecting different results."

Reflect on that & reflection means pausing to think inwardly...and to ponder....so don't post an immediate answer other than to say you got the post...but really pray on this stuff b/c so far it seems to me I've just wasted so much time and energy on you. I mean, you saying that detachment really means having OP for "most people" -was an aggressively ignorant statement and showed how little thought you put into what we say and how you missed a point we have hammered hard, and over a long period of time. I still can't believe you don't get it by now.

This is your life K, the stakes seem high to you, but you sure repeat your mistakes a lot. Why not change that?

I don't think you really get it. I am not stuck on her like I used to be. I am moving forward with my life. And I am doing it in a way that is totally contradictory to what I believe. But I am doing it. Of course I want her back. But I am moving forward without her as if she is not going to be there. I don't necessarily post all of my daily interactions, thoughts, movements, etc because I am not interested in some people coming down on me because I finally caved and had enough. I feel like I am more in Stuck808's mode. I am hoping God restores us, but I am done waiting. If He restores us, I will take it. If he doesn't, I'm going forward. You can throw out the whole standers thing. I'm done with that and having a good time in the process.

Kevin

[K4D]

I would love to have my W back. But I am moving forward as if she will never be back. And it doesn't matter what other people think about whether I failed as a stander. I DID. I am human. I am Kevin.

Kevin

[K4D]

25,

Your email address is failing, so I will reluctantly post these 2 things here and hope they don't backfire on me.

25,

As I didn't realize how bad I was to lift up at times... I met someone worse than me that I am doing everything in my power to keep going. He actually hasn't posted on divorce busting, but had seen me talking to everyone one day and contacted me. Funny thing is, he works 2 buildings over from me in Irving. Talk about what are the odds. He is a really nice guy. But wow, he is sooo needy in terms of feeling insecure about his situation. I actually think his situation is far better than many on divorcebusting.com. I have to reasure this guy at least 2 or 3 times a day. I like him and I am all about marriages surviving, so I stick with him and really try to keep him on track. But what it has done has brought realization to me of just how draining I was to people about my situation. In a way he is actually helping me get out of my funk at times by having to focus on him and his situation. This guy really needs to talk to you. He could really use inspiration from you and your success. Literally he is on a roller coaster ride 2 or 3 times a day. He mind reads so much that in the morning he will tell me things seem in good progression with his wife to at night he tells me he thinks she is moving to divorce. It is ridiculous the emotional roller coaster ride he is on. But I am determined to stick with him and keep him on track because i really think from everything he has told me, he can win his wife back. There is no other man involved. There was earlier, but that ended. Now it is riding on him.

He truly makes me evaulate my situation by having to keep him on track every day. Go figure. His divorce busting name is "At The End". I am going to try and get him to start his own thread because I really want you to give him the insight you have so graciously given me. He is work. I finally told him the other day he is not ready for his wife to come back to him. That shocked him. I had to tell him that if he is mind reading this much while separated, it will only be worse if she comes back until he gets a grip on it. Guess where I got most of what I have told him from. I got it from you in having to look at my own situation and relate it to him.

If you are up for the challenge, I could use the help with this guy as I truly believe his marriage is riding on him which i can't say about most people on the boards.

I hope he doesn't read this as I am really in his corner and he really is a good friend.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7

[K4D]

25,

I have moved on. There is only one person that truly knows what is going on in my life. FaithfulH doesn't and neither does anyone else. The one guy that does, only does because I trust him and he is in a difficult situation himself and ready to throw his wife to the curve.

We know each others situatuions very well and he is very worried about his sitch getting out. But he trusts me and I trust him. It gets hard lately trying to feel like I am living a double life because I want my wife back, but I am no longer sitting around and waiting for her.

But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.

But I just don't care anymore. I do, but not to where I let it rule me anymore. I want it, but I am not waiting for it anymore.

I never thought I would reach this point, but I have. And the funny thing is, I would never have guessed in a million years that my MIL would change so quickly like this when I least expected it. I have always viewed her as the main obstacle standing in the way of me and my W getting back together. That is how much she has tried to wild her power.

But somehow whether it be selfish or not, my MIL's hardness has been shaken miraculously. So I guess anything is possible as I never thought I would see the day that happened.

If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage. It is so draining to do everything you can think of day in and day out and see no results.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7

[25yearsmlc]

25,

I also know you want to see me apply to myself what you are taking the time to tell me and help me with. I am trying to apply much of it. It is that whole consistancy thing that gets me and I have trouble staying consistant when I start new things.

Kevin

This is what has to happen or you will be here for years. Figuratively if not literally. SO I'm glad you get this.

Then I saw your rebuttal and realized you forgot about "Reflection" or you thought it happened in one day...I don't want to pursue this anymore, but must clarify an outright misstatement you claim i made...

I NEVER SAID, NOR HAVE I EVER BELIEVED THAT HAVING A MAN IN MY LIFE WILL "MAKE ME HAPPY"....OR "FILL/MEET MY NEEDS"...ever.

I'm not like that & never was. Neither are the people on DB that I mentioned to you & I know them well enough to say that. What we said at the time, was that we realized our WAS's leaving us did NOT mean we were necessarily always going to be alone. We realized that THEIR choice to leave us, did not reflect on us nearly as much as on them and it did not mean we were not attractive to the other sex....and THOSE comments are NOT like saying we "need" OP or think they [b]make us happy as you say. [/b] You are not able to distinguish those thoughts or comments and for that, I'm sorry and you are...saddled by an unfortunate misunderstanding. But You wrap our words into terms that apply to you, and then you think we're like you....not so, That's you projecting and though you don't know why it offends some of us, it does.

The very wording about someone else "making you happy" or "filling your needs" reveals this fundamental difference. But enough of the pointless point by points...you need much more time to reflect. Honestly I hope you read these posts weekly, and then monthly, and go BACK to March, and then read some things you wrote in May...in a matter of weeks, note the mood and behavior swings you experienced and presumably, your family saw...."reflect"...for how long? Reflect long enough to learn from, and then to ACT DIFFERENTLY...

Look, I don't think you have the inner 'equipment' to move on without an OW substitute or as some would say, a "Crutch", or whatever you want to call it. Safe to say, You have not done it yet. I just think you'd have done it by now if you knew how to build your own self esteem so that your neediness would not still radiate to the world. I said you should get professional help for this, b/c it's not a healthy way to live and you won't be happy in the long run if you have to have someone else there "making you" happy. Doesn't work that way. But you won't get the kind of help you need & I have to accept what I cannot change.

So I can't judge that, except to ask that you be honest with the women you meet. Perhaps a few R's later, you'll see some patterns in your life more clearly and perhaps you will change. I DON'T KNOW...all I know is you have been here, doing the ssdd, for way too long.

Kevin, you know this to be true and that's what sucks the most isn't it?

Good luck Kevin, I appreciate that you read my posts. But I think you spend more time defending yourself in your rebuttals, than really processing the feedback in the first place. THis isn't about me being right. You don't have to take more polls or bring others into your thread to argue or bolster your viewpoint...Now that I know you read it, you don't have to bother telling my why I'm wrong, (and I might be!!). THis isn't a debate. The feedback is for you to process, which you must take much more time to do, and if it helps, great. If not, so be it. I tried.

Why not try that "Reflection" thing I mentioned, i.e., the inner pondering and searching but for a whole lot longer, and then after you reflect, maybe you will start doing your life differently....?? that's really the point of all this time spent here.

At first we try to help the newbies get through their first horrible days without hurting themselves, or forgetting their kids. We try to give them hope until we can know more so they don't "lose it". Then we try to help them in their actual M's as we learn their situations, or in their post divorce lives if it comes to that...but in all those cases, at some point the people involved have to learn to be happy on their own, or they cannot be b/c the person they delegated their happiness to, left....SO they must change, or their lives will not improve. That ability to affirm ourself and bolster our own self esteem is mandatory and that's self evident to me and the others who detached WITHOUT OP in the picture...so...your arguing or going point by point-- is missing the point.ANd it distracts from solutions.
Again, good luck.
j-

[K4D]

25,

I feel like I owe you and a few others my life through this. I was close to not only calling it quits, but truly ending it in Florida, and you, stuck808 and others really came through for me and helped me not pull the final trigger on myself through my darkest period of my life.

If nothing else, remember that you and stuck and others probably saved a life. With time, maybe a marriage.

You and stuck and others really saved a life if nothing else. So please don't think that anything you say goes un-noticed. I read everything you say and others and think and process it.

Kevin

[25yearsmlc]

25,

I have moved on. There is only one person that truly knows what is going on in my life. FaithfulH doesn't and neither does anyone else. The one guy that does, only does because I trust him and he is in a difficult situation himself and ready to throw his wife to the curve.

We know each others situatuions very well and he is very worried about his sitch getting out. But he trusts me and I trust him. It gets hard lately trying to feel like I am living a double life because I want my wife back, but I am no longer sitting around and waiting for her.
But that is what you did all year. Praying is great and maybe fasting is too. But you know what you didn't do? You didn't change or grow...

But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.

You really believe that's what God wanted you to learn from all this?

But I just don't care anymore. I do, but not to where I let it rule me anymore. I want it, but I am not waiting for it anymore.

I never thought I would reach this point, but I have. And the funny thing is, I would never have guessed in a million years that my MIL would change so quickly like this when I least expected it. I have always viewed her as the main obstacle standing in the way of me and my W getting back together. That is how much she has tried to wild her power.

But somehow whether it be selfish or not, my MIL's hardness has been shaken miraculously. So I guess anything is possible as I never thought I would see the day that happened.

Just so I'm clear....This "miracle" is that your mil is thinking of not excluding your from a family event?

If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage. It is so draining to do everything you can think of day in and day out and see no results.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7

Love is a verb. It requires action Kevin...sorry you did "everything" you could think of, b/c you sure got tons of advice from tons of people who said to do other things and more of them.
But You stayed stuck and chose the easy route...sure it sucked, but it was easier for you than changing, or taking action. That path was, and is, a pattern in your life. I can't change it. You won't change it B/C you won't see it. So.....here you are....

[Startingover2]

Hi Kev..don't have alot to say today, but hang in there..do your best. Work on you. What (besides W) makes you happy. Try it this weekend!