Your W is the common denominator in two failed/ing M's and one serious R! She perhaps has unresolved baggage that you and she don't see. I hope she is seeing a counselor to sort this out.
This weighs on me too, although if you're referring to her A with OM, I'm not sure I'd call that a serious R! I think she is still seeing our MC ocassionally, but I don't know what effect it's having on her.
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I am so sad for your kids that she walked out of the PT meeting. She is setting a bad example and in their heads, they may somehow think all this is their fault. Kids tend to do that.
It wasn't a scene at all. The kids had no idea what was happening. We showed up and my W came out and just said "Come on kids, we're going." My son asked "Why did we even come here?" My W said nothing in response. I said "I guess it didn't take as long as I thought it would."
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What respect can she have lost for you, when she has had an A? Her own self-respect must be low. Here she is, doing the same thing she did before. How does she explain this to herself? She may or may not have been officially S'ed with her first M, but she was certainly not D'ed when she met you, so you were a partner with her in an A. It sounds like your W told you very little, so you were pretty much in the dark. Who knows what she said was even true?
That whole thing has been revised in my mind. I was OM, and I didn't even know it. She presented herself as totally single. I know she was in a R with another guy for a short while before me, then she even went out with a co-worker of mine a couple times before we started going out. Once she locked in on me, she pursued me very strongly. My friends used to tease her about how obvious she was in her pursuit of me, which she hated. She hardly ever mentioned her H, and just treated it so matter of factly that I didn't pay it much mind. I was still pretty young and naive, and liked her so much. It is interesting that her mother and brother have subsequently told me how poorly she treated her first H, and how she just dumped him when she got bored. Sounds familiar.
When I refer to her having no respect for me, I mean that she treated me like crap for many years, and I just took it, and didn't stand up for myself. I used to, but after our first son was born, she had me, and she knew it. When he was six months old she told me she couldn't live with me any more and she rented her own apartment. To say I was crushed is an understatement. She never really left, she only spent a couple nights in the apartment, but she proved to me that she was capable of leaving me and taking my child from me. From then on I would never really stand up for myself, and her respect for me just withered away.
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I know you love her, and she is the mother of your children, and probably has some really great personality traits, but faithfulness, honour and honesty does not seem to be any of them. If you D her and she and OM get together, she will probably do the same thing to him. Who knows what she is telling him about you?
This weighs on me heavily. I truly don't know if she's capable of being honest and faithful and committed. From some intel I got, I know she's lied continually and exaggerated about me. She had him feeling like he was her great savior, and she fed his ego at every turn. Her mother told me she thinks he ended their R, probably because she was putting so much pressure on him.
In her favor, I know of no time she lied to me prior to her A starting.
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This little drama, walking out of the PT meeting, has turned the tables on you. She knows that this will make you pause and wonder. She sucked the power right out of you. Men often don't like seeing their loved ones upset, and having been crying, etc. or their children used as pawns. They go into protective mode.
I was surprised how weak that effect was on me this time. She'd usually put on her little show and have me back right where she wanted, but this time I didn't cave.
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Anyway, be careful of losing sight of who you are --- don't let her overshadow you and make you doubt yourself. Be firm. Don't take this cr@p of her crying --- never heard of it ever killing anyone. It's just that she lost control of the sitch, and she don't like it and it's upsetting her. This is emotional blackmail, IMHO.
Thanks, I'm trying. Like I said before, I'm only now beginning to realize how well she had me trained to doubt myself when I'd stand up to her.
Reading this back, I'm realizing how out of sync it is with what I wrote in the first pages of this thread. This has been a process for me, and my thoughts about my marriage have ebbed and flowed over the months.
The self criticism I gave myself early in this thread was legitimate, as are the points I've made here. I did fail in my M, as did my W. She did try to make our M better, but either the way she did it, or how I responded led to where we are. I don't know if things would have ended differently had I not failed. I don't know if my W's failings would have been minimized had I not failed. I don't know if it was an inevitable clash of flaws that destroyed our M. That wonder is why I'm still here. I guess I still have hope that if we could deal with our crap and learn from this, then maybe we could have a good M.
However, the selfishness she's exhibiting has to go or there is no hope. She was acting so much better a couple months ago. I was starting to think maybe we could pull this off. What happened?
This is what I read in your posts: you are a flip-flopper and she is a MC. Don't doubt for a second that she hasn't seen your type many a times. Realize, she is going to test you on everything? She has given advice on every trick in the book in her sessions and she has used them on you alot already. There are still more up her sleave in the days to come.
How much strength and confidence and unwillingness to back down do you have this time?
The way I see it, you used the threat of divorce as a strategy to reconcile. Thats a tough one. But all in all its still a bluff. right?
Why is she upset? You dumped her you asked for divorce. No one. Not even the cheaters like to get dumped. You are a jerk. You were suppose to bend over and submit to her wishes.
My motto: Never bend over and avoid kneeling at all costs.
Bah, whats the worse thing that could happen? she calls your bluff? she calls you for bail because she just got arrested for public indecency with two twenty year old guys in some parking lot in the back seat her car? another OM appears next week? any of that scare you?
This is what I read in your posts: you are a flip-flopper and she is a MC. Don't doubt for a second that she hasn't seen your type many a times. Realize, she is going to test you on everything? She has given advice on every trick in the book in her sessions and she has used them on you alot already. There are still more up her sleave in the days to come.
I have flip flopped regarding the history my M as I reflect back on it. I haven't flip flopped about my desire to try to reconcile.
Yes, she is a master at testing, and I fail much of the time, because of my desire to reunite my family. I'm trying to do the counterintuitive thing, and it's hard.
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How much strength and confidence and unwillingness to back down do you have this time?
I guess we'll find out. What does back down mean? Not divorce her? If she shows signs of reaching out, do I ignore them? Do I talk with her? Do I calmly reiterate that I just want to get the separation agreement done? At what point do I open this back up to discussion?
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The way I see it, you used the threat of divorce as a strategy to reconcile. Thats a tough one. But all in all its still a bluff. right?
Not quite. A legal separation isn't a divorce, and truthfully, I have to get it done regardless, for my own security. I know the reality is that there is a good chance my M is over. We've been living apart for a year. She is/was involved with another man. I need a legal separation to protect me, regardless of whether we end in divorce. I'm using the fact that SHE sees it as a big step towards divorce though.
Is it a bluff? Good question. I really am about at the end of my rope here. It's been almost two years since our M started to crumble, a year and a half since her A started, and a year that we've been separated. How much longer can I wait? She is in crisis right now. I needed to strike while the iron was hot. If this doesn't work, my M is over. What else can I do?
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Why is she upset? You dumped her you asked for divorce. No one. Not even the cheaters like to get dumped. You are a jerk. You were suppose to bend over and submit to her wishes.
My motto: Never bend over and avoid kneeling at all costs.
That's the whole respect thing for me. I have bent over, and knelt, and it's time for me to get up, and not do it again. This was the only way I could see to do it.
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Bah, whats the worse thing that could happen? she calls your bluff? she calls you for bail because she just got arrested for public indecency with two twenty year old guys in some parking lot in the back seat her car? another OM appears next week? any of that scare you?
Scare me. A little, but I have no other options here. This is my hail mary pass. I've allowed such bad behavior from her, and she's known all along that she has me safely in her pocket if she needs me. I had to break that perception.
I have flip flopped regarding the history my M as I reflect back on it. I haven't flip flopped about my desire to try to reconcile.
not true. you sent the letter. read it from your wife's point of view. one interpretation is that it is a declaration. divorce, separation, whichever it dont matter, look back at what she said to you afterwards,
"If you want to date someone, that's up to you"
or can interpret it as he's pulls this crap all the time. he's not serious.
any way i look at it youre flip-flopping. the reason i am harping on this is i'd like to know youre plan from here on out.
I meant I haven't flip flopped inside myself. From her point of view, am I flip flopping? She knows I didn't want her to leave. She knows I was heart broken over the loss of my family. I obviously wanted to try to save our M, but she could see me start to throw in the towel this summer. She was afraid she was losing me, so she'd reach out, and I'd soften, and she'd get reassurance that I was still in the game. She'd then go away again, I'd eventually get fed up, and I'd start to push for the separation again. That's been repeated a few times over the course of the year. Is that flip flopping? It's been in response to her. I want to save my M, but it takes two. I've reached the point where I don't trust her little overtures mean anything. Maybe I should have been here a long time ago, but I wasn't. So from her point of view, has she seen me flip flop? She can't see it's in response to her?
What is my plan from here on out? I need to see how she reacts. If she totally digs in and refuses to go to mediation, then eventually I'll have to sit her down and ask why. At that point, I'll be open to whatever she says.
If she makes a serious declaration that she doesn't want our M to end, then I'll soften, but at that point, I'll have terms, i.e. transparency, attending Retrouvaille, etc. I'll be in the power position.
If she goes along and attends mediation, and signs the separation agreement without serious protest, then I have my legal security, and she has shown me she really does want a D. The one year clock then starts ticking. This game gets played out again in one year when I push to finalize the D. If she goes along again, then my M is over.
SMQ, you seem aprehensive about what I've done. What do you think I should have done? We've been living apart for a year. She could keep us in limbo for another year, or two, or three, until she feels good enough and secure enough and confident enough to D me on her terms. Like I said, my only hope for true reconciliation is to do this on my terms. Do you not agree?
If she makes a serious declaration that she doesn't want our M to end, then I'll soften, but at that point, I'll have terms, i.e. transparency, attending Retrouvaille, etc. I'll be in the power position.
The other part of my strategy I haven't mentioned is that I made sure to give my W some good doses of me at my best during the year. I've tried to show her the best of me nearly all the time. Caring, considerate, fun, charming, reliable, interesting, in shape, energetic, and good with the kids. I'm putting it all on the line here.
