A Little Epiphany - (and a newbie delurking)

[Dia]

So here's how Thanksgiving shook out...

Thurs morning before 8 am, we hit the road for the 200 mile drive to my folks place in the desert. Kidlet and I were upbeat, H was tense, both about the impending visit and a bit about the weather. I was driving and heavy winds were blowing the car around.

Once at my folks' place, however, things seemed fine. Not amazingly wonderful, but ok - ya know? My folks were welcoming, H was accomodating and helpful and I didn't feel any uncomfortable moments. He may have, but if he did, he didn't say so.

We stayed in a hotel instead of in the overcrowded condo, so that helped, too. It's nice to have a way out of the pressure cooker - makes everything a bit more bearable. With three young boys (Kidlet plus cousins ages 4 and 6), the television going and people trying to talk over it, my family can get quite loud. It's hard on us introverts who are susceptible to overstimulation. The hotel allowed us to retreat to some peace and quiet and then not go back over until we were braced for the sonic onslaught.

The 2nd day was my youngest nephew's birthday. That went well, too. We went to Chuck E. Cheese, which was less hellish than it could have been as it was Black Friday and most people were out shopping. We left at about 5:30 that night for a weekend to ourselves at home. H is napping while I cook supper, and kidlet is playing on his computer. H and I have a 'date' scheduled for tonight. We'll be watching The Libertine, with Johnny Depp. (We don't do that 'list' thing, but if we did, he'd be on it.)

H and I are very, VERY close and affectionate. This is very nice. My Mom and I are still guarded around one another but things seem fine with the rest of my family.

H's family made noise about having an extended family Thanksgiving dinner up in Ojai but plans never materialized. His sis and bro-in-law went to the husband's parernts' for dinner, which was a good thing as they experienced a major plumbing disaster, a turkey explosion and the FIL fell and broke an arm.

MIL and FIL went to Santa Monica, and as far as I know, didn't do anything at all Thanksgiving-ish. A small, niggling part of me wonders if I'm being blamed for their not having a proper Thanksgiving, but I told that part to go play in traffic.

[Gardener]

Dia,
All - all - so wonderful to hear. I am so happy for you!

[Lotus]

Wow! Are all 3 of these things related?

"His sis and bro-in-law went to the husband's parernts' for dinner, which was a good thing as they experienced a major plumbing disaster, a turkey explosion and the FIL fell and broke an arm." Sounds like a Thanksgiving to remember!

[Dia]

Well, apparently the turkey explosion happened while BIL was laying prone under the kitchen sink trying to fix said plumbing issue. The fall was related to the turkey explosion (just how does one get a Thanksgiving turkey to explode in the oven, anyway?), whether out of startlement or slippery floor, I'm not certain. I'm just glad SIL and BIL were there to help!

[Dia]

Hi, folks,

H and I just came out of a 2-hr long R-talk and I could use your thoughts on resources for helping H learn how to validate my feelings. He feels the talk, while horrid and uncomfortable as to the topics, was very successful. While I said what I needed to say, I didn't feel heard.

The talk started when H very perceptively asked me if I feel like I get enough time or attention from my mother. Then it did the thing where it ranges all over creation. Eventually, we got on the topic of his mother and the possibility that we might have to move out. To make a long story short, I suggested that if he were able to honestly say some variation of the following to his mother, that it might lead to a softening of her position against me/the reconciliation:

"Mom, there were valid reasons why Dia left. I had an alcohol problem, and I had an inappropriate relationship with her best friend."

Of course, the 'honestly' part would mean that he would have to *agree* with the statement above, so the R talk focused on those two issues, namely the alcohol and the R with XBFF.

There were a number of places of concern for me in the convo. I still see minimizing of the alcohol-related behaviors. I do not see an alcohol problem at present at all, but I still see some defensive sweeping-under-the-rug. I still see a lot of blame of me for things. For example, at one point I was marking bottles so as to get a facts-based version of how much/how often he was drinking. For my part, I really did want the facts. He was telling the MC that he drank far less and far less often than I believed he was, and when I said I thought it was more, I was accused of exaggerating - hence my marking of the bottles. It wasn't so I could be 'right'. It was to find out if maybe I *was* exaggerating. Well, to him, the only reason I marked the bottles was that I was out to get him and I was case-building so I could build up enough pretext to leave.

These beliefs on his part only fuel the perception on the part of many people, including his mother, that the break-up was all Dia's fault. By leaving that perception unchallenged, he is tacitly reinforcing it. If we're going to make headway with his mother, he needs to own his [censored] and let his mother know he contributed to the downfall.

Re: the XBFF - I was talking very openly about the degree of pain I felt about that relationship regarding *her* betrayal, not just his, and he made a remark about "So this is why you've made her into such a demon?" Yeah, I corrected that one. /deadpan

Dia: Hmmm, when you say I've made her into a demon, I hear that you think I am demonizing her unfairly. Is that correct?

H: You're certainly up in arms against her.

Dia: Given the circumstances, I think my feelings about XBFF are reasonable and valid. I mean, where's the little voice that says, "You know, my two best friends are really having a hard time in their marriage, so seducing the guy would really be a bad idea right about now. Not to mention it would be a crappy thing to do to my best friend."

H: I don't think she thought things through that far. She was hurting over (her X-husband).

Dia: I'm sure she *was* hurting. So were you. But hurting doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it wasn't a betrayal of me. I was hurting, too. Does that mean it was ok for me to get involved with OM? So "I was hurting" justifies just about anything? It may make it *understandable*, but it doesn't change whether or not it was right, and it doesn't change how much it hurt people.

So anyways, he needs time to process a lot of this. It was a long convo, and his M.O. is to mull things over slowly and then come back to me with them a day or three later. We'll see.

At one point in the convo I asked him if he knew what it meant to validate someone's feelings, and he said no. So I explained. Then I explained that for several years, I'd sensed tension between me and his mother, and when I had brought it up to him, mostly he'd told me I was wrong and just playing into the MIL stereotype. Now, with things in the open, it seemed pretty clear to me that there really *was* tension between me and his mother, so could he see how I would feel after years of having my feelings minimized and disregarded?

And he launched into an explanation of why his mother feels like she does.

/headdesk

Dia: Yes. I can see why she would feel that way. Can *you* understand how *I* feel?

H: <silence, long look, then very hesitant and unconvincing> ... yes...?

So, bottom line - H could do with some upgrading in the feelings validation department. What resources - books, websites, etc. do all of you recommend?

After the talk, I asked him if we could do some work on feelings-validation so that I could come away from talks like this feeling heard and validated, and he agreed.

[Dia]

And FYI for those who were following the cognitive dissonance/cognitive distortion stuff, that's precisely what we're grappling with right now.

Example - The Drinker: Gosh, my W is upset about my drinking. If she's right, I might have a drinking problem. If I have a drinking problem, I would have to do something about that because a drinking problem is a really bad thing. Wow, and I'm pretty attached to my alcohol. I don't want to change my drinking behavior at all.

Cognitive dissonance: I want to drink vs. my wife is upset and drinking problems are bad mojo.

Defensive solution: If my W is wrong, then I don't have to change my behavior and I'm not a bad person for having a drinking problem!

Cognitive distortion (in this case, denial): I don't drink nearly that much or that often. You're just exaggerating, so quit nagging me.

I'm inclined to call in some outside help a la DB coach or IC/MC, but that's a discussion for a bit later in the game.

Note: the example above *is* exaggerated, and it's not meant as a representation of my H, accurate or otherwise. It's a made-up example to show the cognitive dissonance/cognitive distortion progression.

[Energizer Bunny]

The valadation piece see to be the million dollar question. I myself, have pushed to feel heard by my W and in turn she felt "unheard" by me.

I don't know the exact dynamic of you and your hubby, but do you think asking him more about his views, how he thinks you could handle the mom/house situation would open him up a little more. I don't have much for resources, but it seems that people are less likely to validate when they feel invalidated themselves.

[Lost Rabbit]

Welcome back Dia, good to see things are still on track and you are still working through things! Its good to see someone back who is still going through early piecing so few folks seem to come back after their H/W comes home and it does live a hole on the forum so thank you for doing so!

[Gardener]

While I said what I needed to say, I didn't feel heard.

When he "comes back in a day or three", you must tell him this.

"Mom, there were valid reasons why Dia left. I had an alcohol problem, and I had an inappropriate relationship with her best friend."

This a man would, should do. Tell him you expect your man to do this.(although the "inappropriate relationship," certainly minimizes this betrayal in a Clintonesque sort of way)

There were a number of places of concern for me in the convo. I still see minimizing of the alcohol-related behaviors. Not good. Red Flag. I do not see an alcohol problem at present at all, but I still see some defensive sweeping-under-the-rug. Minimizing, Not accountable. Call him on this. I still see a lot of blame of me for things. What?!For example, at one point I was marking bottles so as to get a facts-based version of how much/how often he was drinking. Smart.For my part, I really did want the facts. He was telling the MC that he drank far less and far less often than I believed he was, and when I said I thought it was more, I was accused of exaggerating - hence my marking of the bottles. It wasn't so I could be 'right'. It was to find out if maybe I *was* exaggerating. Well, to him, the only reason I marked the bottles was that I was out to get him and I was case-building so I could build up enough pretext to leave. Nonsense! And the MC didn't call him on this? Sounds like he never owns his own behaviors. Very defensive about anything alcohol related = Big Red Flag.

These beliefs on his part only fuel the perception on the part of many people, including his mother, that the break-up was all Dia's fault. By leaving that perception unchallenged, he is tacitly reinforcing it. And "siding" with Mom. Over his wife! Is he a mama's boy.? If we're going to make headway with his mother, he needs to own his [censored] and let his mother know he contributed to the downfall. Tell him this . Word-for-word (although "contributed sound a bit weak, considering).

Re: the XBFF - I was talking very openly about the degree of pain I felt about that relationship regarding *her* betrayal, not just his, and he made a remark about "So this is why you've made her into such a demon?" Yeah, I corrected that one. /deadpan

Dia: Hmmm, when you say I've made her into a demon, I hear that you think I am demonizing her unfairly. Is that correct?

H: You're certainly up in arms against her.

Dia: Given the circumstances, I think my feelings about XBFF are reasonable and valid. I mean, where's the little voice that says, "You know, my two best friends are really having a hard time in their marriage, so seducing the guy would really be a bad idea right about now. Not to mention it would be a crappy thing to do to my best friend."

H: I don't think she thought things through that far. She was hurting over (her X-husband).

Dia: I'm sure she *was* hurting. So were you. But hurting doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it wasn't a betrayal of me. I was hurting, too. Does that mean it was ok for me to get involved with OM? So "I was hurting" justifies just about anything? It may make it *understandable*, but it doesn't change whether or not it was right, and it doesn't change how much it hurt people. He's not getting it, Dia.

So anyways, he needs time to process a lot of this. It was a long convo, and his M.O. is to mull things over slowly and then come back to me with them a day or three later. We'll see.

At one point in the convo I asked him if he knew what it meant to validate someone's feelings, and he said no. So I explained. Then I explained that for several years, I'd sensed tension between me and his mother, and when I had brought it up to him, mostly he'd told me I was wrong and just playing into the MIL stereotype. Now, with things in the open, it seemed pretty clear to me that there really *was* tension between me and his mother, so could he see how I would feel after years of having my feelings minimized and disregarded?

And he launched into an explanation of why his mother feels like she does. Siding with Mama over his wife.

/headdesk

Dia: Yes. I can see why she would feel that way. Can *you* understand how *I* feel?

H: <silence, long look, then very hesitant and unconvincing> ... yes...?

So, bottom line - H could do with some upgrading in the feelings validation department. What resources - books, websites, etc. do all of you recommend?

Dia, I don't know of any books that deal with just validating feelings, but I do strongly suggest The New Rules Of Marriage by Terry Real. Great book. Includes a lot of this. We even went to one of his 3-day
seminar once. Of course, given the state of my sitch, I could understand your having some skepticism on my recommendation, here. Trust me on this. Plenty of things re validation, conflict resolution, just plain speaking up. Excellent book!

And given how well-versed in this you are, I would suggest validating his feelings, and a few seconds later rewind the conversation and ask him, "how did you feel just then when I said X?" H answer. "Do you know what I did just then? I validated your feelings, H. Acknowledged them. Really understood what it must be like to be you and feel the way you do on X"
Lead.
Then suggest some practice sessions for him. Teach him.

My verbose far-more-than-you-bargained-for, far more than 2 cents.

[Dia]

Thanks, everyone.

Gardener - one of the reasons I positively adore this site is that when there's something we have a problem with and our spouse gives us some line of you-know-what about why we're wrong or why that should be a problem, I think we all begin to doubt ourselves. "Gosh, maybe *I'm* the nutjob? Maybe s/he's right and I'm just over-reacting, etc. and so forth ad nauseam."

Then we come here and we get the most amazing, kick-arse validation ever.

Thank you. All of you.

I've been feeling deflated for most of the day, and of course I feel deflated. I was invalidated during much of that conversation! He defended his mother, he defended XBFF, he defended himself. There wasn't a single apology, a single "I'm sorry for the pain", and the only "I know how that must have felt" had to be pulled out of him at great length.

Sigh.

Word to the wise - the battle is NOT over once you hit the reconciliation milestone! There is still work to be done. It will be hard, and it won't be pleasant. You can't muck out a stall w/o getting sh&t on you. Don't let that put you off - but be ready for it with open eyes and realistic expectations.

edit: oh - and FWIW, the MC took his side on the alcohol, meaning that she accepted his version of how much/how often he was drinking. Ergo, I was the nutjob.