DanceQueen, you touch on a lot of interesting topics, and I'll consider being a little more experimental in the directions you outline!
The interaction you have with your husband is pretty normal, and similar to what I've heard about from some other couples. I know one woman who says she likes the feeling that her husband feels he "owns" her during sex. But interestingly, she is very careful about initiating sex because it might make him feel unmanly. I'm curious, is that the case with you too? And there would be NOTHING wrong with that, and I would not take that to mean that you want to be submissive in real life.
I've heard of women (and this may not be the case with you at all, of course) who have sexual turn-on fantasies about being in very male-chauvinist male-authority situations where women are powerless, and they feel very guilty about those fantasies because they are feminists and believe in gender equality. And the advice they need to hear is that it's OK and normal to have "forbidden" fantasies which are totally contrary to your everyday beliefs. And it's great if you have a partner who understands that and is into the role-play that matches your turn ons, but doesn't assume it necessarily extends to everything else.
In the case of my wife, she had a brief period of sexual abuse in childhood, which may be related to her pulling back in recent years. Apparently, you can't just "overcome" it all in one shot, as my wife apparently hoped would be the case when she first met me. So she has some issues with being "overpowered", and I understand that. But in my case, I'm sexually flexible, perhaps as a result of having being long-term HD, enabling me to sexualize a lot of different kinds of psychological scenarios. So I can easily picture behaving as your husband does, and being turned on by it, acting on my frequent sexual impulses to satisfy myself. But on the other hand, I also have fantasies about being dominated by a woman who wants to be in control sexually, who wants to be on top, and set the pace, etc. And I also have fantasies about more tantric kind of equal sex. Or I could go a little further in the direction of being dominated, or dominate with some light B&D. I totally understand the psychology of being in either frame of mind in a role-playing sense, which allows me to understand the other party in any such situation. Which is different from a situation where only one partner likes a little B&D, but the other partner just goes along to please their partner but not understanding the psychology. So, heck, the reality is there isn't much I don't fantasize about when it comes to women and sex. What I miss most is not having a partner who is equally erotically enthusiastic, flirtatious, and willing to explore. It's not just the physical act that I miss; it has to have a rich context, just as you describe it with your husband.
As for feeling that sex is scarce, in my experience, it's been more of a case of feeling that appropriate sex is scarce. Appropriate in the sense that I'm not leading a woman on just to have sex. I've had plenty of women come on to me at work and elsewhere, but acting on those situations would likely have ended up with more trouble than they were worth. Perhaps unlike some alpha males, when a pretty young intern comes on to me, I feel flattered, but also scared about the trouble it might result in if I act on it. I picture some alpha men as just grabbing the opportunity and dealing with the consequences later. In that moment, it actually matters to me what the young intern might think of me after it's all over. In one case, it was clear the young woman had all kinds of fantasies about me that I could not fulfill in the long term, and I knew she was too young to foresee that herself. Maybe that concern is a wimpy part of me that keeps me from turning into a Bill Clinton? But it's kept me out of trouble!
And I'm sure that by "alpha male" you also don't mean the type of guy who was on one of the talk shows a few years ago. This guy refused to ever drive one of his wife's compact fuel-efficient cars because he considered it "unmanly". So he had his own Ford pickup truck with huge tires which he'd always drive. Now, in my mind, that kind of guy is just insecure, and not a true alpha male.
I'm curious, have you ever told your husband what you wrote here with regard to what you like? Or did your interactions just develop naturally over time, as each of you saw what worked for the other? I don't think you give enough recognition to the fact that he behaves this way because he knows you like it. I'm sure he's not insensitive to that.
Good points, Strong&Alive. I'll get back to you when I have a free moment.
ssmguy...it is not really about the he-man shoving me up against a wall. It is about his attitude that I am his, and therefore he can take me without my permission.
In our sex life, yes we have a high amount of fantasy play and we are all over the map as far as who dominates who, who behaves submissively, we play games like this regularly. But this is a side point to the point I was making.
Even if our sex life didn't include the type of dominate fantasy play you are talking about, he would still have the attitude I am trying to describe to you, and its his attitude that allows me to feel my sexual attraction toward him.
For instance, you said: "As for feeling that sex is scarce, in my experience, it's been more of a case of feeling that appropriate sex is scarce. Appropriate in the sense that I'm not leading a woman on just to have sex. I've had plenty of women come on to me at work and elsewhere, but acting on those situations would likely have ended up with more trouble than they were worth. Perhaps unlike some alpha males, when a pretty young intern comes on to me, I feel flattered, but also scared about the trouble it might result in if I act on it."
You see, the women coming on to you at work are not YOUR woman. Therefore, taking any of them up on their offers is not relavant to the point I am making. I am making a point about the alpha male and him making use of what is rightfully HIS.
Inappropriate sex is outside of this equation.
You are certainly painting a picture that sex is scare in your MARRIAGE, where it should rightfully not be scarce. Outside your marriage is not what is at debate, as far as I am concerned. And a man who goes outside his marriage is not exhibiting alpha male traits, just to make that clear. What he should do instead is insist upon a good sex life within his marriage and then take the steps necessary to make that happen.
It may take saying to your wife "I'm eventually going to leave if it doesn't happen". It does take a serious talk like that in many people's cases. But this is a risk the alpha male will take, because he will put his sexual life in the right place no matter how that has to happen. He will take charge and control of making it happen.
You said: "I'm curious, have you ever told your husband what you wrote here with regard to what you like? Or did your interactions just develop naturally over time, as each of you saw what worked for the other? I don't think you give enough recognition to the fact that he behaves this way because he knows you like it. I'm sure he's not insensitive to that."
Of course he knows I like his attitude but once again, he had this attitude when I met him. He's had it all his sexual life as far as I can tell from his stories. Its because he HAS this attitude that I am attracted. He doesn't do it just to attract me, or it would not work, and I would have sniffed that out while still dating him.
Strong&Alive, yes, we are not setting the best example for our kids who know that we are not intimate. But I don't think it's better to show your kids that you solve that problem by getting a divorce! As you probably know, children of divorce have higher divorce rates themselves, as if to go on repeating their family history. But they have seen us get along and try to solve the problem with therapy and going on romantic vacations.
Well, our marriage might not be "quite good", but it's not bad. When HD people are single and live by themselves, it is not an automatic conclusion that their lives could never be "quite good" just because they're not having sexual intimacy with anyone. I don't think it's a stretch to apply that to a marriage.
Yes, sex is more than a silly activity, at leas to me. But it's hard for my wife to see it as anything more than that. That is, she understands that it should mean more, and that it means more to me, but she doesn't see it as more than that for herself. That's what happens when you've had no sexual desire for a long time. Think back to when you were a young kid and you heard about adults having sex. Many kids react with "Ewww, gross!" That's a natural reaction when you don't know or remember what sex means physically and emotionally.
Now, this isn't the first time I've posted about my situation on forums, or talked to other people. But it is interesting how EVERYONE assumes that I have not tried the obvious things, like being firm, sitting down for a talk, looking into my wife's eyes and saying we need to change this or we need to divorce. I have done all of these things and more, and that's how I got her into therapy. And so, logically, since the problem hasn't been fixed, I should then have divorced by now. In which case I wouldn't be here posting to this forum. But that is my point, I have CHOSEN not to solve this problem by saying "I'm outa here!" At least not yet.
And I don't think you sufficiently understand that incentive alone, no matter how high the pressure, and sometimes because of the high pressure, is not necessarily going to make a woman want to have sex. I don't want her to be sexual with me just because I threatened divorce. She has made an effort. It is not correct to assume that lack of success on her part means she made no effort. Otherwise you are assuming that effort to be sexual will ALWAYS succeed. And my point is that that is not case.
We last had intercourse just over a decade ago. As for how I get my needs met, let's just say those aren't details for which I'd get wide support and approval from everyone. My wife tacitly approves by not wanting to know. I suppose you could call it a low-key open marriage. And it's the last thing I would have ever believed I'd enter into when I got married. And no, I'm not happy with it, but it's the best I can manage at the moment.
I'm familiar with the righteous (even if correct) advice about how I've compromised my integrity. As if I didn't know. But my alternatives are divorce or celibacy, and they look worse. And yes, I definitely have lost perspective on what it's like to have a good, full sexual relationship in a marriage, as I realize when I read some of the replies. I see that in contrast to some of the replies, I more freely write about my sexual energy with women in general, as if my wife is just another woman. DanceQueen, for example, reminded me that the discussion pertains to only her relationship with her husband. I don't have that framework because I don't have a sexual relationship with my wife. And my framework has become the norm for me. Sometimes when I hear about a couple who've had a long-term marriage with exclusive sex and intimacy, my reaction is wow, that's amazing. It seems like it would be a really cool, neat, novel, and strange experience to permanently live with someone who willingly meets your sexual needs. Almost like it would be too good to be true or possible. It just seems too simple.
DanceQueen, I understand about the attitude. Perhaps it sounds strange to you, but I wouldn't mind a woman doing to me exactly what your husband is doing. It's one of my many fantasies. My wife indulged me a few times that way when we first became sexual and I absolutely loved it.
Yes, I understand your point about the discussion being only about your husband. It's part of my skewed perspective to see it as normal to consider all women as sexual prospects, just the way one does when one is single and unattached. Because, bizarre as it may sound, the only women I can realistically expect to have sex with are women who are not my wife. I know, totally backassbackwards. I wish it weren't that way.
As for being an alpha male and taking the steps, I've taken them all. The ONLY thing I haven't done yet is divorce. And that is my choice for now. Yes, I have taken the risk of suggesting divorce many times. I have even suggested that she could have her own boyfriend if she wanted, as I'm obviously not doing it for her in that department.
As for taking charge and control, the only thing I can force is divorce, and I have chosen not to do so at this point. For every other option, I need her cooperation. To suggest that an alpha male's only choice is to force something, then I would be forced to divorce just to be an alpha male. I have chosen not to do that yet.
As for his attitude when you met your husband, I'm sure there was a body language and compatibility realization long before you become sexual. And you would not have chosen each other if you had preferred a different sexual style.
The fact that I genuinely enjoy several very different sexual styles does not make any one of them phony or invalid, just because I like another style at the same time. If I sensed that a woman preferred mostly to be sexually "taken", I would warm to that and it would be a genuine expression of my feelings. I wouldn't be doing JUST to attract the woman.
In his hugely respected book about human growth and sexuality, David Schnarch outlines a hierarchy of levels of engagement with sex partners: 1) sexual predation 2) casual consentual sex, f*ck buddies, etc 3) relationships with some "emotional investment" 4) being aware of and trying to fulfil some of partner's emotions and needs
5) "Partners realize and appreciate each other's deepest core personality and potentials--pushing themselves to disclose their most private and personal truths." 6) profound bond with a single partner in which "sex becomes a form of spiritual communion celebrating the mysteries of life"
As long as a person limits himself to extra-marital sexual encounters, he won't be able to move beyond the first four "emotionally fused" forms. Meanwhile, a sexless marriage disallows the possibility of personal growth in an intimate context. Perhaps your wife is unwilling or unable to evolve, but are you genuinely satisfied with the prospect of another decade of no change?
Strong&Alive, yes, we are not setting the best example for our kids who know that we are not intimate. But I don't think it's better to show your kids that you solve that problem by getting a divorce! As you probably know, children of divorce have higher divorce rates themselves, as if to go on repeating their family history. But they have seen us get along and try to solve the problem with therapy and going on romantic vacations.
Okay, so your children are just going to end up in sex-starved marriages instead of getting divorced? Because divorce is never a solution? At very best, I would say that "the children" is a neutral factor in all of this, because I just don't see a sex starved marriage example as any "better" than a divorce example. So I'll move on.
Quote:
Well, our marriage might not be "quite good", but it's not bad. When HD people are single and live by themselves, it is not an automatic conclusion that their lives could never be "quite good" just because they're not having sexual intimacy with anyone. I don't think it's a stretch to apply that to a marriage.
IMO it is one helluva stretch to apply this thinking to a marriage. I would agree that the HD single should be able to be self-sufficient and happy within themselves. But you overlook one essential difference. The HD single is free to enter into a sexually fulfilling relationship - or what he/she hopes will be - and if it isn't sexually fulfilling... they can end it. The man or woman who has locked themselves into a sex starved marriage has handed the key to their sexual freedom to their spouse. Big difference.
Quote:
Yes, sex is more than a silly activity, at least to me. But it's hard for my wife to see it as anything more than that. That is, she understands that it should mean more, and that it means more to me, but she doesn't see it as more than that for herself. That's what happens when you've had no sexual desire for a long time. Think back to when you were a young kid and you heard about adults having sex. Many kids react with "Ewww, gross!" That's a natural reaction when you don't know or remember what sex means physically and emotionally.
Why should it matter what your wife "thinks" or "believes" about sex. Even if she thinks less of it than you, what makes that thinking superior (or inferior) to you own? This again is a neutral factor. Forget what your wife wants - or says she wants - the two are frequently very different in my experience. That is the wrong question. The question is: "What do I want?" The next question is "Will my wife give it to me in good faith?" The next question is not "Is she giving it to me for reasons that I think she should?" That would be doing her thinking and giving for her. Leave all that to her, and just focus on the first two questions.
Quote:
Now, this isn't the first time I've posted about my situation on forums, or talked to other people. But it is interesting how EVERYONE assumes that I have not tried the obvious things, like being firm, sitting down for a talk, looking into my wife's eyes and saying we need to change this or we need to divorce. I have done all of these things and more, and that's how I got her into therapy. And so, logically, since the problem hasn't been fixed, I should then have divorced by now. In which case I wouldn't be here posting to this forum. But that is my point, I have CHOSEN not to solve this problem by saying "I'm outa here!" At least not yet.
Well, I can only go on what you've said on this forum. I hope I make no assumptions at all. It could be pointed out that when you said "We need to change this or we need to divorce" you very likely didn't mean what you said (because you didn't divorce). For example, she may have "gone" to therapy, but not actually engaged with the issue at all, because she knew this wasn't ever really going to be a deal-breaker for you.
What kind of therapy was this - joint or single - and for how long? What specifically came out of it? What did your wife say or do as a result?
Quote:
And I don't think you sufficiently understand that incentive alone, no matter how high the pressure, and sometimes because of the high pressure, is not necessarily going to make a woman want to have sex. I don't want her to be sexual with me just because I threatened divorce.She has made an effort. It is not correct to assume that lack of success on her part means she made no effort. Otherwise you are assuming that effort to be sexual will ALWAYS succeed. And my point is that that is not case.
So you want her to be sexual - but for the reasons you think she should be sexual. Do you see the problem with that thinking? You spend too much time doing your wife's thinking for her, instead of just stating your wants.
What efforts did she make in the bedroom department? And is there any reason why it wasn't good enough for you, why it's been preferable to not have sex for the last 10 years?
Quote:
We last had intercourse just over a decade ago.
What were the circumstances? How was it left? Were the therapy and the efforts before or after the last time?
Quote:
As for how I get my needs met, let's just say those aren't details for which I'd get wide support and approval from everyone. My wife tacitly approves by not wanting to know. I suppose you could call it a low-key open marriage. And it's the last thing I would have ever believed I'd enter into when I got married. And no, I'm not happy with it, but it's the best I can manage at the moment.
I'm familiar with the righteous (even if correct) advice about how I've compromised my integrity. As if I didn't know. But my alternatives are divorce or celibacy, and they look worse. And yes, I definitely have lost perspective on what it's like to have a good, full sexual relationship in a marriage, as I realize when I read some of the replies. I see that in contrast to some of the replies, I more freely write about my sexual energy with women in general, as if my wife is just another woman. DanceQueen, for example, reminded me that the discussion pertains to only her relationship with her husband. I don't have that framework because I don't have a sexual relationship with my wife. And my framework has become the norm for me. Sometimes when I hear about a couple who've had a long-term marriage with exclusive sex and intimacy, my reaction is wow, that's amazing. It seems like it would be a really cool, neat, novel, and strange experience to permanently live with someone who willingly meets your sexual needs. Almost like it would be too good to be true or possible. It just seems too simple.
Ssmguy, I apologise for in any way sounding righteous, that is not my intention. I'm simply seeing if there's anything I can say or suggest that may help. I have been in a SSM and I know how depressing and soul-destroying it is. Very much so. It sucks the very life force out of a man (more on that later). It was this board and the things I learnt here, that got me moving in the right direction.
I'm assuming that, having posted here under the name "Ssmguy" you are none too happy about your marriage as it currently stands. Equally, you may think you've tried everything. So did I. Was I ever wrong.
Having said all that, is this agreement with your wife that you get your needs met outside the marriage, an explicit one? Or is it based on an assumption that she would (if you ever explicitly asked her if you could have sex with other women) agree, or just feel too guilty to say no, or reluctantly agree because it was the lesser of two evils? Do you see my point?
Looking at your situation objectively and as a man - I see a man with several children (even the youngest of whom must be over 10 years old), married to a wife whose own needs and wants he no doubt does his best to meet, but who has not had sex with her for 10 years and is clearly unhappy about it - and I ask myself where is this heading?
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Cyrena, that's an interesting list. I'm operating at the lofty and rarified level of 2! I have female friends with whom I reach the level of 5, but they're not sexual so that doesn't meet Schnarch's defintion. So, in a sense I'm at level 5, it's just that I meet the different components of the need with different people!
If I were satisifed with my situation, I wouldn't be posting here!
Strong&Alive, I can't disagree with anything you say. But it doesn't make divorce look better.
We had more than one set of therapists. The last set involved both joint and individual for a period of about 6 months. The result was a better understanding of each other and how to constructively (or more accurately, to prevent destructive or nonproductive exchanges) continue our relationship. My wife thought it was stressful and wanted it to end.
I don't argue with her about sex. That's one thing we learned in therapy -- we don't tell each other what we ought to want or think. We only say what each of us would like, without demanding. That's obviously nothing but the truth, so it doesn't trigger an argument.
I think she feels too guilty to say no. And she doesn't want to deal with any aspect of sex, period. It makes her feel inadequate. My gut feeling that has resulted from this long SSM experience is that the only person who cares about my sexuality, or shows any interest in it, in my marriage is me. And since my wife also does NOT want a divorce (she has said so), I feel free to take care of my sexuality as I decide for myself, as long as it doesn't impact my family in some direct way (such as being absent for long periods of time, or causing undue embarrassment, etc.).
I know that may be a jarring picture to some, but it is a balance I've lived with for years, and I'm comfortable with it, but certainly not happy about it in the sense that I know it could be much better.
Just to clarify, Schnarch is interested in how a person's interaction with SEX PARTNERS reveals his/her desire for self-growth, so #5 refers only to completely accepting your partner and revealing every aspect of yourself DURING SEX.
Schnarch also states that we all marry partners at the same level as ourselves. When one partner feels the need to grow beyond gridlock in the marriage, his changes will force the partner to either grow as well, or exit the marriage. So, as long as you are determined not to change things, there must be emotional needs which your marriage is meeting--eg. being your wife's "caretaker?"
ssmgy - I didn't realize you have already made the decision to be repeatedly unfaithful. Because of this, your marriage now has insurmountable problems beyond being an ssm.
The marriage your wife thought she was in, doesn't exist. The man your wife thought she was married to, doesn't exist. Do you think this is better than divorce? Its too bad that you didn't even give your wife a choice to decide on either divorce or a sham marriage, or possibly taking the steps needed to change the ssm. You made that choice for the both of you, and for that reason, your wife's marriage is a sham now. She doesn't know the truth of her own life.
Before you think I'm judging you, please know that I made the same choice you did in my previous marriage. After many years of learning and growing, I now understand that I was NOT entitled to sex outside the marriage, and that I made my own marriage a sham by doing so. I hope one day you'll understand this yourself, because the truth is something that can't be hidden.
Good luck, ssmguy. I hope somehow you and your wife can tackle the problems you've built into your marriage.
(and p.s...by "insurmountable problems", I mean that in your current mindset, there is no way to surmount the problem of your infidelity...it would take a complete mindset change for you to help your marriage now, and it doesn't sound like this is likely to happen, therefore, I used the word "insurmountable".)
