As I said, I don't post much here. My marriage may end, but there's no OM in the pic now. He dropped my wife as soon as the affair was exposed.
But I can understand your feelings. Mentally, I live where you do. I have a horrifically strong sense of right and wrong.
Here are some things the come to mind.
1. Your feelings are normal. You are supposed to feel angry and upset. An injustice was done. Modern times require us to have to live in the face of this insanity. In olden days the men in your clan would have probably strung up your ex and ow. Talk about closure, medieval style. In today's environment, we are suppose to cultivate acceptance and we're told to let go and move on. And we're supposed to share our children with people who stole our spouses from us and broke up our families. What I'm saying may seem, on the surface, to add fuel to the fire. But I would be worried about you if you didn't feel outrage, anger and stress. Forgiveness and acceptace will come when you are ready.
2. They say time heals, perhaps you need to be a little easier on yourself and understand that you will, bit by bit, handle encounters with ex and OW more graciously. Forgiveness will come.
3. I think it's commendable that you are worried about your kids not having to "care" for you. That's more than I can say for your ex, who exposed them to this insanity. You are going to react, and for a time, your kids will bear the burden of being uncomfortable around you and the OW.
4. The little that I have seen of you is that you are thoughtful, kind and want to be loved. You are alive and interesting. Sure, you have your flaws. But I don't see any real fatal flaws.
5. In psychology you will be told to love yourself that you don't NEED other people's love so desperately. Theology will tell you that you need to allow God to love you fully, so that you see youself as loveable and delightful, and therefore, are not so desperate for other people's love. I think this is a life-long process we all grow in. There's no button to push. It takes time.
Questions for you.......
1. Sometimes when we are trying to play, "I'm OK, you're OK, the divorce was no-one's fault" game for the kids, it becomes clear to our kids that we are bull-sh*tting them.
Did you have that pseudo-conversation with the kids?
2. Perhaps being honest with the kids --saying, straight out, "Dad had and affair and left me. That's wrong, in fact it's immoral. It hurt me and I'm angry about it. You dad never apologized to me and he's not sorry. It's going to take some time for me to forgive and move on. But people can make mistakes, and we can still love them, even when they are wrong. I am working on being that kind of person. Your dad still loves you and even though what he did was wrong, I know you love him too, and that's OK. We both love you very much."
Did you have that kind of conversation with your kids?
We are supposed to shield our kids, but they can also smell dishonesty.
Donna--wow, do I know how you feel. it's as if things aren't bad enough, now there's the OW trying to be another mother to our kids, and we're supposed to just accept it and go on.
In my sitch, I found out in July that my D13 had been spending time with OW and her family since January. She never told me about it because she didn't want to hurt my feelings--or have me blow up like I did when I found out they all had dinner together without any preparation for D13 at all. I was crushed; however, a couple of months later D13 had a 3-hour-long chat with me, which she initiated. She has known all along that OW broke up the marriage; she figured it out on her own. It was fairly obvious anyway. She feels very much like a low priority to her father, sort of like his 4th child instead of his only one. He has tried to force a relationship with OW and her daughters, and D13 is pushing back--which is very out of character. She doesn't like them at all, wants nothing to do with them, really doesn't want much to do with her father at this point, and predicts "she'll dump him once she's done using him" to help her muck out horse stalls and watch her grandson. In short, D13 "gets it" about her father's character, about OW, and appreciates being able to talk with me. There may come a day when I'll have to face OW--most likely at 8th grade graduation in May--but there will always be an opposite end of the room to sit.
And listen--no, your xH was NOT right, you are NOT defective. It's a natural part of being left for someone else to feel discarded and rejected. But the flaw is not in you. Sure, learn what you can about whatever your role might be so that the same issues don't pop up in future relationships. But it was xH who fooled around with the neighbor and didn't honor his vows or his family. And THAT is a fatal flaw.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Just my 2 cents. It took time. At first, I kept busy just so that I didn't lose hours wrapped up in my own depressed thoughts. I tried the stop sign. I lost myself in a lot of books. I worked out.
Then I noticed I could go a day or two without getting caught up in it.
At some point about a year later, after his brief and half-a$$ed attempt at R failed and he was back with OW, I yelled into the mirror that "I just want my H back" and it didn't hit me in the gut. It didn't ring true. I was too angry at being betrayed a second time.
I've seen too much of his flaws. I've lost respect for him. I can't trust him. I can't depend on him. It took a long time for my self-esteem to recover, for me to begin to question that it was my fault that he left.
And once I was over that hump, it was all downhill. I still think about the past sometimes. But most days it doesn't hurt as much.
Of course, I have a biased opinion since we don't have kids, I don't have to deal with STBXH or OW often, if at all. That distance has helped me tremendously.
Michelle - Proud DR Rockette S: 28JUL07, D'd: 29OCT09 http://tinyurl.com/27j9qo2
Kat - engaged?! gag. But I am glad that you can't see him around in your future, so I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run, does it? Do I see my x in my future? I guess the only sticking point is about the kids - milestones, ceremonies, hopefully grandchildren someday. I puke a little thinking that gf will probably be at these things, too. However, no one can see into the future, so I just have to drop it - worrying about things that haven't even happened yet. It does put a damper on other family gatherings, namely his family's. Just as I was feeling strong enough to think about stopping by at Thanksgiving, he has also grown bold enough to include his gf. I'm not going to put myself (or anyone else) in that situation. So, I've closed the door on that old part of my life, as well. It was hard, but not terrible (I guess every loss pales in comparison to what I've already been through). I'll have to forge new traditions with my family (who are scattered a bit), my kids and my friends.
I have already had to be around her - the two of them showed up at one of my son's BMX meets over the summer. They stayed far away, but it pissed me off (and I think I said as much to him soon after). My D10 and hers are both in the same grade / school, so they show up "as a family" while I'm usually on my own to watch my D sing in choir, etc. These are the times that I need to go numb, just not give a sh!t - and I'm still finding it hard. My sis pointed out that it is pretty selfish, that I have to put my kids first. I'm trying. Maybe I am trying to hard to "fast-forward..."
Kerry - SBT, like the stop-sign? What other techniques? Maybe I need a refresher. I've thought about hypnosis...hey, what could it hurt, right?
wii - I do place part of the blame on gf - remember, we knew each other for a dozen years, she let me cry on her shoulder and offered to help me save my marriage, all while she was already having sex with x. Not all the blame, anymore. But a good half. They were both slimy.
dday - x doesn't care if I want to tear her apart - guess I was never scary enough. I should "just be over it." Matter of fact, he has pointed to any anger I have with her as evidence of what a terrible person I am.
Karen - I think you might be onto something, pointing out that the people who have rejected me might be pretty flawed, themselves. Seemed that everyone in my early years were only reinforcing the message I was getting at home, when in probably reality, I was just over-sensitive and young / inexperienced. I hope that's the case, but I am looking at ways to improve, anyway - can't hurt. Taking off the rose-colored glasses....most of the time, I see the man x is today. But in weak moments, my mind starts to play tricks on me and brings the good things to the surface, obliterating the recent turn. I go back and re-read the reality paper I wrote often, which helps.
Theo - thanks...there is a lot of reality in what you wrote. I can only imagine what might have happened if my father was still alive. I may be pushing time along a little too quickly. About #3, the kids bearing the burden - that sucks, and I want to do everything in my power to limit it. Yes, I can point to how x didn't care, but that doesn't let me off the hook - just more important that I get my sh!t together that much more quickly. Thank you for the compliments, too - I hope that I am those things (I find it very hard to know how people perceive me, now). I do know that my lack of proper boundaries led me to have some unwittingly selfish behaviors, and I have pretty much corrected that over this time - I am amazed at all I can do with no help or "company" from anyone else! I've left behind the Princess... I am working on understanding and studying about God's love. Like you said, that may take a lifetime to grasp and accept. I am, at heart, a questioner.
Talks with the kids - the original, "We are separating and dad is moving out" talk was done all together and didn't get into why beyond us not getting along like we should. X screwed up soon after, though, and started lying to the kids when he wanted to have gf around right away. My S asked about it, and I told him. D has gotten the gist of things over the 2 years we're apart...she asked me once why I don't like gf, and I just said that she did something that I didn't think was right, and we're not friends, anymore.
Hoosier - I hope that D10 will talk to me as more of this comes into her awareness. I just don't want her to feel torn apart. I remember when she needed surgery as a baby - I would have done anything to trade places with her to keep her from the pain, but I couldn't. I could only love her and comfort her while she healed.
Michelle - time...wish I had distance, too. Just have to find a way to deal.
Once, a friend of mine told me the reason my kids are having a difficult time with authority and other such things is because their mother is an unrepentant adulterer and they don't know it. It's the elephant in the room no one is talking about. In some sense, the moral fabric of the universe has been violated and though the kids feel the consequences, they have been "shielded" from the reason why. This leads to great confusion and insecurity.
If we divorce, my grounds will be my wife committed adultery and she isn't one bit sorry and cannot commit to being faithful to me. Maybe I'm being too flippant, but I will feel obligated to tell the kids why we are divorcing if that happens. Divorce is a public act. We would be tearing the family apart, and I feel my kids need to know that the universe has a moral center and that, at least, one of their parents stood for the marriage. Otherwise, they will think the world is random, and the people you trust just up and leave you and stop loving each other. How do they know that one day I will won't just stop loving them?
Yes, I'm flawed too, and I caused some of the problems in our marriage. But...I remained faithful. And I don't mean to sound all pious, but that does matter, Donna. It matters in all our situations.
What do you plan to tell your kids about marriage and fidelity? Do they go to Sunday school? What happens when they get to "Do not commit adultery?"
This information sort of trickled down to your kids. And I understand there is age-appropriate information. My sense, however, is that it would be healthier for them to know what their dad did was wrong, not simply that "mom and dad can't get along". Better they learn to love people in spite of their faults than to live with vague unease that something is dreadfully wrong and no one is saying what's really going on. Why exactly don't you like your ex's girlfriend? Are you just a jealous sour-puss who randomly dislikes people? Perhaps understanding that this woman is a home-wrecker and adulterer might put things into perspective for them. As a Christian, I am called to forgive my enemies. But, then, of course, I need to name them as an enemy. Forgiveness happens when an offense has happened. The offense needs to be named.
I know you want to take the hit for your ex-husband in order to shield your children and not "poison" their relationship with their father. You are not Jesus, Donna. And if you believe in Him, I don't think He wants to you lie to your kids to protect their father.
His relationship with his girlfriend will never be OK -- in fact, it's a living, breathing, stinking lie.
Forgive me if I'm going on too much about this....the angry prophet reared his head. If I've gone too far, forgive me. I deeply get your pain.
Theoden - excellent post as usual. I really like the stuff that you write.
In regards to kids understanding, I was recently suprised by my 9 year old son. He and I were waiting in the Sunday school area of a church for my daughters girl scout meeting to finish and he found a poster with the childrens version of the Ten Commandments. When he read the "Remain always faithful to your spouse", he commented to me that his mother had broken that law.
Donna - SBT stands for Solution-Oriented Brief Therapy. It is what Michelle Weiner Davis discusses in more detail in chapter 3 of her Divorce Busting book. I dont remember her discussing it in Divorce Remedy. There should be web sites that list counselors for your area and what theories they practice - you might want to look for the ones that say "Solution Focused". Basically, it bypasses focusing on the past and instead seeks solutions to your current problems.
The past is not going to get any better or worse. You cannot rewrite history and change what has already happened. What is past is all said and done. You should learn from the past and apply it to what is ahead in the future. What remains to be seen is what you can bring to your present and future.
The below are the words that John Wayne has inscribed on his tombstone and I hope they have meaning to you as they did for me...
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learnt something from yesterday.
Theo - My focus with the kids is not to help my x have a relationship with them for his sake; it is to minimize the damage to THEM. Any attack or harsh words towards him cuts into the kids - they are made of both of us. My son knows what happened; my daughter will come to know as she is mature enough to absorb the reality at her own pace. They also saw the enormous amount of pain and hurt I went through that I just couldn't hide - but that only makes it more important for them to see me survive / thrive afterwards.
Kerry - Thanks for the link - that is the therapy model most often used by my therapist. I am just a stubborn case She asked me what would have been the best-case scenario for when I met up with x in the store with D10....I immediately jump to "That her parents didn't get a f'ing divorce!" I think she gets exasperated, sometimes...
I was thinking about it the other day...I just have to embrace that I am divorced, go beyond accepting it. I get that I am, but I'm still pissed off about it (while at the same time, seeing how the marriage couldn't be restored, or even wanting it to be).
I think I might feel guilty, holding back on myself embracing it - then, I condemned my kids to a broken home / second-best, too. After fighting so long for an intact family, it is hard to come to believe that this may have been the best outcome.
My focus with the kids is not to help my x have a relationship with them for his sake; it is to minimize the damage to THEM. Any attack or harsh words towards him cuts into the kids - they are made of both of us. My son knows what happened; my daughter will come to know as she is mature enough to absorb the reality at her own pace. They also saw the enormous amount of pain and hurt I went through that I just couldn't hide - but that only makes it more important for them to see me survive / thrive afterwards.
Donna, I could have written that exact statement! In my case it is the daughter who is older and gets it and my son who is a bit clueless. My daughter and I have never discussed it, but she is aware. If we are watching TV and something comes on regarding someone cheating on a partner she gets pissed! She gets the anger out that she cannot express to her father. If she ever asks me direct questions about the circumstances I will answer them as directly as possible. But she gets it because my X was so blatant about his relationship from before he even moved out. He spent all of his time with her, she was his new "best friend"....and then he married her two weeks after our divorce was final, so they get it. And they know it is wrong, but that is his issue to deal with, not mine. And I don't attack or bad-mouth him, they don't need that. They see him for who and what he is. Ironically, he bad-mouths me, mostly about financial stuff, and we have discussed it, so they see that side of him also. Sometimes the high road is a good place to be!
"You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf." Jon Kabat-Zinn
Yes....attacks and harsh words, coming from a bitter place are bad for the kids. I think you've told them the truth in an honest, loving way.
There were times, Donna, in the first 12-18 months after the bomb that I would go to the nearest open Catholic church during lunch, sit in the back, and sob, telling God "I'm sorry I was such a bad husband that my wife felt compelled to cheat on me. I'm sorry that I can't or won't change into the kind of man that attracts her back. I'm sorry my divorce-busting efforts are so pathetic I'm sorry that I failed my family and children."
Yeah, I cried me a river of tears.
Maybe you still feel that way a little.
I'm done crying.
You see, the fact that I was there crying meant that my heart was in the right place. The fact that you wanted an intact family for your kids means you are one of the good guys, Donna.
I'm slowly becoming more of a person that I like. I realize that I'm worth taking care of. But I'm doing it for me, not to win my wife back. She may come back, but if she doesn't, there's a wonderful life for me with or without another woman in my life. I envy the woman who's heart I capture. ;-) The world needs my gifts and my joy. My kids need my passion and strength.
I see the same for you. You are one of the good people, Donna. I so want to see you flourish.
I can't rack my brains with best outcomes. Your husband's affair and leaving you was wrong. Shouldn't of happened. Terrible thing. And yet..it's quite possible that for you, the best is yet to come. I have this sense, that perhaps, in some strange way, if my wife and I split up, for me the best years of my life will clearly be ahead of me. That might be possible if we stay together, but who knows?
Allow me to toast your wonderful and joyful life to come -- starting today!!!!
Donna...I came to check in (shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)
I got over my ex, essentially, when I started to like me again.
Once I started liking me, I started realizing that what he did was not about how worthless or unworthy I was but rather based on his own jackas sedness.
And i realized that while I was not dumb in loving the person he had presented himself to be, I would a fool to love the person he was proving himself to be and
not a fool in love kind of fool but a driving the car top speed with the headlights off on a cliff road kinda fool
i may be naive trusting hopefully blah blah blah
but out and out stoooooooooopid...I don't think so
and it helped that his girlfriend was so white trash they shared teeth!!! :-)
It took time. At first, I kept busy just so that I didn't lose hours wrapped up in my own depressed thoughts. I tried the stop sign. I lost myself in a lot of books. I worked out.