K4D Rising #4

[K4D]

in which case you run the risk of realizing your wife is not worth the gum on the bottom of your shoe

I have to disagree here and only here. My W is worth as much as I am and my children are and anyone else. We all make mistakes in this world. It doesn't mean that one person is worth less than the next.

Kevin

[JayMan]

Kevin,
I believe in marriage whole-heartedly and am devoted to my vows, wife, and family. I believe divorce is a sin - except in cases of adultery, abuse, abandonment.

I went through a searing soul-searching, read, studied, attended counseling, sought advice, poured myself into my kids, etc. I thought my life had ended, God didn't care, and I was a complete failure.

I watched W sink lower and lower, listened to her start losing her biggest cheerleader (D9), have seen her live this shallow life. She is with an OM that lived with his mom and dad, then got kicked out so started bringing his three kids to her 700 sq ft apartment. 7 people in a 700 sq ft apartment!

I watched my children grow to love me like I never thought it was possible, and I to them.

Seriously, I am ready to be divorced. My W is a train-wreck.

She has been counseled by wise people that care for her, has a husband that loves her dearly and gave pretty much everything for her. She ditched her family because they wouldn't support her affair, and even her very best friend in the world all of a sudden is very "busy". And she walks away from it all for selfishness.

So, you, just like I had to, need to realize you can't do anything for her. The "civil conversations" are probably just to make her feel like she's being nice. When she calls and realizes her wrongs, and apologizes for them, and gets before God, and makes things right - THEN maybe you can post about having a hopeful heart.

I am filing for divorce on Monday. My conscience is clear before W, and before God. She has committed adultery, so I'm free to leave the marriage, but not because I haven't tried my heart out.

I have discovered amazing friends, reconnected with old friends, reconnected with my extended family, grown
amazingly close to God, and am content, satisfied and happy.

Kevin - you are inching along. I do see some improvement, but I'm a super patient guy. You've got to cut loose of this.

Why do you think even Jesus himself gave an opportunity for divorce in the case of adultery?

[25yearsmlc]

sure K4, pretend that Kerry & JonF are saying your wife is the scum of the earth and you have to defend her honor, keep pretending that's what Kerry is meant...
Or, better yet, don't deflect.
Good grief. You really don't want to change your life do you?

I can't decide which is the more powerful force in your life, your fear of being alone, or your inertia. Both lead to the other, ironically. The more fearful you are of facing life without your wife, the more paralyzed you are and the more likely you will be to have to live without her forever...and the more inert you are, the more she sees that you are simply waiting around for her, which is totally unattractive to her.

As Kerry & JonF are telling you, GAL, and learn to embrace life with or without her. I agree with them too, that you do not have to have your m restored to get this message of personal health and happiness...getting unstuck...

Fill your life with people and activities and stop telling us why you cannot do that and must stay inside your apartment. If you are so poor that you cannot join an activity UNRELATED to being married or sep, then you need another job or two.

Here's what I told someone who listened, and who is getting back together...and if this doesn't "work" to get you back together, let it "work" the way Kerry's GAL has, and be happy. Stop being stuck...we're all saying the same thing Kevin, but you keep pretending not to get it. Anyhow, here's what I posted elsewhere, to someone asking for support from a "Div Busted!" source...

What Worked for Me
Dear "X",
I think it's so important that we say something about our stories and what we think helped the most for our m's to reconcile and last.

As my signature says, I consider my M restored and finally can say "D busted". Not perfectly fine by a long shot, but we are closer than we've been in a decade and I think we're on our way to having what we once had, a really good M.

If you had asked me 3 years ago, or 2, I would not have said we'd be married today. I'd have given us a 10% chance of staying M.

After piecing for nearly 2 years, we attended Retrovaille, Not b/c we thought we were failing at the "piecing" so much as wanting to be "done" with it, if you know what I mean. Even though no M is ever "done" and we are always works in progress, we needed a boost. And so when we attended Retrovaille, we found that we were able to reconnect more fully without the past looming over so much. It helped us a lot. Gave us the boost to the finish line, so to speak. But getting to the point where you can even consider going to Retrovaille was the real struggle.

The main thing that turned my situation around in the first place, and that would enable us to go to Retrovaille, was my own DBing. For me and for almost all of us, that meant Detaching, GAL, etc
Letting go helped us get back together, and then forgiveness is what enabled us to stay together. Neither of these was easy.

When H actually left us for a JOB ('adventure") up in the wilds of Alaska... (crazy as it sounds, it was what it was, even though it's not how he saw it then). For me, may as well have called "Alaska" "Alicia" or OW...b/c that's how it felt....but anyhow, he left.

When he was contemplating it, I did the pleading and arguing and if I say so myself, I had a compelling argument that I think would have won a case in front of the Supreme Court. But to H, it was all for naught. He could not hear me. Or he would not. Doesn't matter. He didn't/couldn't hear so... whatever.

I let him go. To put it bluntly, what choice does the LBSer really have when a spouse wants to go? Hard as it is to admit...we really don't have any choice except how we'll treat their departure. They leave, and then we react. At some point, our lives have to be about our actions, not our reactions.
All we control is us.
That was it for me. I got sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and did not want my kids to see a bitter or sad woman all the time. I did not want to be a model for victimhood OR revenge. They needed to know that all losses are surmountable. We can overcome and be happy again.

So I began to see H's departure as mainly a loss for him, less so for me and the kids. We had each other, after all. (And if he had taken the kids as some WAWs are able to do, I'd have made sure I got half time with my kids. And I'd fill it with good full living). I felt that at some point, whether H was lonely or not, I would not be lonely. I would fill my life with real living, and not waiting. And so I began to GAL. I started making choices I wanted to make without regard to H's career, or feelings b/c after all, he was gone. It started small, with things like seeing chick flicks b/c H was not around so who cares if he'd like the movie? Not about him, not at all. No more toilet seat left up either...(hey, I said start small...)

I saw some positives from this separation for the first time. I really started to embrace those positives. (H noticed this, although I did not know it at the time). For our anniversary I knew I didn't want to be alone, so I chose to take a trip with the kids that I would have preferred to go on with H but alas, since he was not available, we had to go without him. Just before departure he said he wanted to go but it was too late for that. Honestly. So off I went with our children. And we had a blast (We went to Italy, but any wished for trip would have helped me accomplish the same thing; enjoying life as a family even when one member isn't around. We had been in the military and knew lots of families who had fun together even when a member is away....we can all do this and must.)

Unbeknownst to me, h noticed this and ached for our company. While we were busy learning and seeing so much in a totally new place, I didn't think much of h b/c there were no reminders of him, and it was so stimulating, as new places and new activities are. (Hence the suggestion to go on a trip or take a class if it is at all possible). It was very healing for us. I did not do this for attention from H, and in fact would have preferred he not know of the trip and resent it. (Which I think he did, but that was not my problem....) I took the trip b/c I had longed to go there for years and had put it off until h was ready...well, no matter now! I was ready, and I went with some of my fav people; our children.

I think you get the point. There comes a time when you decide you have to LIVE NOW, and you can't keep waiting and checking on the WAS or taking their temperature, or wondering what it might be. You have to let them go. Sometimes they come back and then you have the real work to do. I think the chances of their return increase when you let go and I feel that strongly.

But paradoxically, you have to really let them go for this to work and you have to NOT care if they come back, in order for this to work.

So it ends up that you let them go so you can be happy without them and then either 1) they do not come back and you'll have GAL and moved along into your future that much faster, OR 2) they will come back b/c you let them go.

This is why I cannot understand the long term pursuit of a WAS by an LBSer. It does not work. I do get why it happens at first; we all do it. We argue and plead and whine and nag and cajole and yell and explain and talk and talk and talk....

But if we are lucky, we find DB. If we find DB, we should start to think, "what I was doing isn't really working, is it? So maybe I should try something else", and we begin the 180's - that mainly consist of GAL for us. No more excuses, no more waiting, or "praying for patience" but really just waiting, and no more just hoping and NOT changing ourselves, or taking charge of our lives b/c no one else will take charge of it!

Also saw that I was a fun person, still attractive and still smart and funny, and in sum, I was/am a good catch. I began to picture my life as a single woman in a positive light. Hard at first but I knew widows who were eventually happy, so why not me? Always projected upbeat attitude around H and saw his departure as a mistake on his end but kept it to myself, and accepted it as a mistake he seemed destined to make so I looked at it with resignation but fortitude, knowing I would be fine no matter what his sitch was. I began to see that he was really the one losing out the most, and that even if he seemed or was truly happier without us, that did not matter. My happiness (& the kids) was my focus.

And when I pictured my life without him but made sure to picture it happy, the more detailed the picture, the better I felt. Me happily pursuing my career goals, new hobbies I always wanted to do, spending time with my children and my friends and family and meeting new people and having a good life on my own. Doing new activites became a real goal of mine. Expanding my comfort zone... I became happy again. Tell you the truth, there were some real down sides to being married to my h... that I had to weigh carefully when H wanted us to reconcile. So we have improved most of those things and continue to work on them.

No more victim stuff, no more "making sure WAS knows how much pain I'm in b/c otherwise their guilt might not make them come back" and being blind to the fact that pity is not attractive, and will never get a WAS to come back and stay. Ever..... It just won't. If it did, it would only take a week for it to work.

Being attractive/attracting, is a byproduct of GAL and true Detachment....letting go and not wearing our "purple heart for our wounds", on our sleeves. Not making sure our WAS's know good and well what pain they've inflicted...and how much guilt is on them....why? B/C it does not work! Been there, done that.

Decide if you want to be "right" or you want to be happy. Too many LBSers, (and I was one of them) do not know how to forgive someone or let go of pain. I never saw real forgiveness growing up. But those who quote scripture to get their WAS back rarely succeed (never seen it personally) and as I said, guilt won't get them to stay...even if it temporarily gets them back. Frankly, it seems to send most of them running faster and farther away. Can't see how shaming someone helps restore a M even if got them back into the house. And in the end, if you want them to come back b/c they're healthy and want to restore the M in a truthful way, the guilt has to go. Is that "just"? Who knows?

Is forgiveness fair? I don't know but I do know forgiveness and letting go are essential to the well being of a marriage but I see a lot of LBSers who hold onto their resentment for a long time, and then they wonder why the piecing did not work. They are sometimes punitive, using "rebuilding trust" as their excuse to punish or shame their returning spouse. There is no need or use for that. At Retrovaille my h suddenly began to cry about the pain he inflicted on us and the damage to the Rs he has with our d's and I cried for/with him. No need for me to add to it. He "got it". But when I told an LBSer gf of mine this small story, she asked me if I "reminded h of all the hurt he had caused" and I was agape. She didn't "get it". She thought I should rub salt in his wounds. (??) She is still an LBSer without her h...and she's one angry woman...

I can only wonder how many LBSers are like that. Good God, what is the goal!?? If it's suffering you want the WAS to feel, then sue them for div and take them to the cleaners...but if you want a happy m, or just a happy life, then let your pain go. You are the one holding onto it (Peaceful, I'm not directing this at you personally, hope that's clear....)

Anyhow, I thought I'd post this so that people know there are couples who make it, even through this DB experience. See BrandNewDay, safflie, sandi2, faithfulH, or Orich for more. There are others too, but many times we don't keep posting here for a variety of reasons including that our spouses wish for us not to share any private info, or b/c we don't feel we "belong" here anymore.

But I Hope this helps you remember that not all is lost if you are here. And I mean that even if your div is not busted. ALL of the people I know who "worked the DB program" well, are happier now regardless of what happened in their M. They take charge of their own happiness and that seems to me to be the essence of the DB method of solution based therapy. Find what works, do more of it. Don't do what doesn't work. Work on you, let go of who and what you cannot control, and Be happy.

J-

[K4D]

JonF,

I didn't realize you were JDollie and still on the boards. I had followed your sitch for some time. I thought you had already filed for D sometime ago. Then you disappeared I thought.

I don't really want to get into the whole divorce permission for adultery discussion again as I have been down that path to many times. See page 92 for my final answers on any of that.

I'm glad things have improved for you in your life outside of your M. I know you were at this for over 3 years.

I can't do anything for my W but love her unconditionally, pray for her, and do what is expected of me as a H and father and that is something.

Believe me, she has her space from me. I don't infringe on that at all. She prefers it that way and I comply with it.

I don't know where people get abuse as cause for D in the bible. Not that I think anyone should live in abuse. It just always intrigues me when someone lists that as not being a sin for D. I have never seen that in the bible.

But that aside, I don't blame anyone for getting out of an abusive situation. Safety is #1 no matter what.

I am inching along. lol. Probably more true than I care to admit. Sometimes I don't feel like I am inching at all and other times, yup, inching along.

I won't be the one to file as Paul said, Husbands, do not divorce your wife. So I won't do that.

And yes I look at each week as W has not refiled for D as a positive. Some say it is just a timing issue. I saw the D get dismissed and I have seen the refiling constantly delayed, so I think there is more at work there than meets the eye. Here we are approaching the holidays and W is about to be out of a job, so I know she doesn't want to spend the money right now. I have no idea what happens when her job comes to an end. I am now trying to save more for many reasons, but that being one of them with the expectancy of my expenses to go up when W isn't bringing in a paycheck.

Kevin

[JayMan]

I apologize - I meant to list abuse as a reason to leave, not for divorce, but then again, God has COMMANDED divorce before, but we'll leave the theological battles aside.

Also, FYI - I have been pushing a dissolution since almost January/February of this year, and W kept pushing it off.

Anyway, just because I have chosen divorce, I have not stopped loving my wife. I have not stopped doing the right thing. I feel no shame in what I'm doing. You are not better or worse for me for hanging around.

I don't feel like you deserve applause for what you're doing, any more than I did for waiting for three years. Keeping your vows, yes. Not going out and sleeping around, great. Many admirable things have happened in this time span.

However, you pick and choose Bible verses to support what you want. You completely ignore 25's incredible advice, and you simply wall yourself off.

I have been where you are - I have watched my children to sink into anger and bitterness toward their Mom.

If I do not file divorce, (which Jesus HIMSELF allowed for) then I teach my children that it is OK to leave your spouse, shack up with someone else, and do whatever you please.

I can understand teaching them love and reconciliation, and indeed, my kids know I still love W, but they will know, that in their future marriage, they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.

I would take a bullet for my faith, and I did pray very hard about this because I don't want to be wrong. What I discovered was that I was cramming God into what I wanted.

Are you?

[K4D]

25,

As usual, a great post that I cannot argue with. And you have no idea how happy I am to see that you and your H are back together. That always provides hope and inspiration.

I also see what you did to make it happen. But you did it for you and because of that, he became interested again.

Kevin

[ClingingToHope]

I won't be the one to file as Paul said, Husbands, do not divorce your wife. So I won't do that.

And yes I look at each week as W has not refiled for D as a positive. Some say it is just a timing issue. I saw the D get dismissed and I have seen the refiling constantly delayed, so I think there is more at work there than meets the eye. Here we are approaching the holidays and W is about to be out of a job, so I know she doesn't want to spend the money right now. I have no idea what happens when her job comes to an end. I am now trying to save more for many reasons, but that being one of them with the expectancy of my expenses to go up when W isn't bringing in a paycheck.

I guess I'm like you inching along, inching along. My W originally said she wouldn't file until 2010 because she wants to get on her pre-paid legal plan offered through her job.

So I guess January will be a big month for me. My six month lease is up that month. She'll be having to prepare for summer camps for the kids -- that was $2,500 this year.

It'll be interesting if she files that month or not. My job is to do what you are doing, love unconditionally, work on bettering myself and be the best father I can.

That being said, I've seen threads on here where people are still married but have been apart for three years while the WAS is on his or her second or third relationship.

I don't think I'd be able to be that patient either.

[K4D]

JonF,

I think you may have taken what I was saying the wrong way. I wasn't saying anything about what you should or shouldn't do. I was just saying here is one of the reasons that I personally am not doing it for myself. Thats all.

Am I cramming God into what I want? I feel that I certainly have done that at times. But I also feel that he tells us to come to him for help in situations that seem impossible. Ok, here come the 2x4s for this I am sure. Kevin, you haven't done everything you could so how can you say it seems impossible? Can't argue there. I have inched along on this roller coaster.

I think that you have made a decision to D your W, that is between you, God and your W. If you are at peace with it, then you are at peace with it.

I can't imagine my kids having to live in an apartment with OM and his kids. Ugg, that would drive me crazy. So I can only imagine how you felt about all of that.

I am not saying that I am greater than anyone else for my stand either. Lord knows you were at it 3 times as long as I have been.

Its not that I pick and choose bible verses for what I want. I have gone through and through and talked with others regarding what it says about marriage to the point of crazyness. I wanted to make sure I left no exemption, stone unchecked or unturned. I think I have possibly read every single scripture in the bible both old and new testament regarding marriage and D more times than I can count. I have talked with different religious leaders about it multiple times. Does that make me better than anyone else or know more than anyone else, nope. Just means that I feel I have covered the grounds needed to stand for this M come hell or high water. Thats all.

I am definitely not ignoring the advice of 25 and others. Infact my kids C is working out something where we can have an hour and a half sessions that include 30 minutes for me, 30 minutes for D11 and 30 minutes for D7 every other week and for only $20 more per session.

My biggest challenge is finding a passion and forgetting my circumstances.

Kevin

[K4D]

ClingingToHope,

People are going to do what they feel is best for their situations. Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees is a mute point. Only that person can decide for themselves what is in the best interest of them, their family and their situation.

It is tough standing through multiple relationships of the WAS. I can't argue there. I think my W is on her second, but I am not 100% sure. I don't enquire about it. I don't want to know.

Kevin

[K4D]

Looks like I am lined up for C for myself.

I saw W for a few minutes tonight. She had to pick up the kids since I had to work late. When I got off I went to pick them up from her. They weren't ready yet so she invited me in while they were finishing getting ready. We briefly chatted as she was wanting to head out and do her thing. It went fine.

And yes I noticed that she looked quite attractive. How could I not. But I kept my senses to myself. As usual it kind of hurt being in the house with her. It is always painful for some reason and I actually feel anxious being around her. But I don't show it.

Kevin