W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it

[breakaway]

breakaway I don't always agree with you (actually it's very rare when it happens) but alot of what you posted is actually very valid with regards to Tristan.

My point of view is valid whether someone agrees with it or not, as it's based on my own experience.

A disclaimer about me: One thing that I find annoying about this forum is the tendency to treat all situations and all WAW's as the same. They have commonality of course, but every situation has differences. I don't get involved in every thread. I chose this one because I felt some very strong similarities to my own experience, although there are certainly differences too. I also don't always give the same advice. So when my advice is XYZ it's because I think it might work in THAT situation. I'm the one who asked marriedcrazy to comment here even though he's moved on from the forums because I thought he might have insight. Yet my advice to him has always been...she's a liar, she's playing you, she'll never change. So it's not like I just take the side of a WAW because I was one. And tristan's wife could go either way, I just think he should try softer before tougher.

This leads me to your comments about me. I don't know why you are assuming so many things about me. You are incorrect about most of them.

But the point about you (and maybe you're referring to women in general) about easily falling for the OM who was gentle & understanding (and now you realize he was faking it the whole time to achieve his $ex goals with you) only enlightens us to the fact that we need to be on our toes 24/7 with our wives because if some sweet talking stranger plays this routine that you mentioned with our wives who we assumed would be faithful, we're in trouble.

Yes. I always assumed I would be faithful myself. I was AT LEAST as judgmental as all of you. Ha. I'll tell ya something though, his sex goals were certainly ancillary. I lived 2000 miles away from him for one thing. He could, and I'm sure did, get sex easier than that. His goal was to be worshiped. Knight in Shining Armor. Savior. God. And I did worship him. Sickening. Oh, and the immediate goal was to get back at his wife, in spades. I figured that part out first.

The double standard always exists and that's the problem I'm having to wrap my head around. We take for granted the husband that works to provide for his family, pays the bills, helps out around the home, is a good parent and has an active role in our children's lives. We take it for granted because they're always there. It's like everything else in life that we have regularly, we take it for granted. We don't appreciate what we have, we only realize it's value when it's gone.

You're assuming I take those things for granted. I do not. Those are the things I told myself over and over and over. But he works hard, but he's good with the kids (sort of), but but but...Don't take it for granted. A lot of men don't do those things...he's not all bad.... Sadly in his family, and it is the motto of the functional alcoholic, working hard means you aren't responsible for anything else you do. His uncle KILLED SOMEONE drunk driving but, boy, he sure does work hard. BTW, I don't work hard enough. That gets told to me ad infinitum...really, the guy who killed someone is really a much better person than I am because he takes really good care of his property.

Women who aren't getting this type of "gentle & understanding" attention from their husbands, maybe it's there but it's from your spouses and you expect them to give it to you so it's not as exciting as it would be if it comes from a stranger who doesn't know you or your background, it's intoxicating to receive this from a stranger who from their first appearance wouldn't seem to gain anything from providing you with this type of attention - he's a stranger and if he's giving me this type of attention, it must be real, he doesn't know me at all.

What I'm trying to say is that it's quite possible that your husband was giving you some of this attention in some form or another all along and at the same time fulfilling all of his other obligations: working his full time job, providing for his family, taking care of his kids, his home, his wife, paying the bills, doing housework, etc. etc.

No. He was not doing that all along. I'm sorry, rob, but my husband is not gentle and understanding. He is the OPPOSITE of understanding. He lacks empathy. That's what makes a person an abuser in the first place. I dont' expect to be told I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread every day. In fact I've tried to expect very little, because after all he's a hard worker and puts food on the table and coaches his son's team. I expect that when my life is falling down around me that he might be willing to hold me and help me. My family lost their entire town in Katrina...I lost a family member. A big part of my world unravelled. I went through that alone. He asks me not to speak of it. He says he doesn't want to hear about my problems. I have asked him for comfort and he has walked out of the room like I didn't say anything. I have had medical problems that he has ignored, denied and YELLED at me for needing medication that cost him money. He took me for outpatient surgery and was upset that he couldn't just drop me off at home and go back to work...He has beaten me over the head about simple mistakes like forgetting a water bottle. I could write a novel about it. I did not have a "boring" marriage I had a dysfunctional marriage. When things were getting more serious with OM I went to him and tried again...I as compassionately and as clearly as I could tried to explain my feelings, for the last time, and what he was doing to me. When I said I needed him to talk to me, he said nobody would want to talk to you... okay, anything I said, that's the kind of response I got. And he told me nothing was going to change. I told him it was definitely going to change.

All this talk of then you should have divorced him? I decided I would. OM or no OM. The things he said to me at this stage made me realize I wanted out no matter what. One thing I'll tell you, he rolled out a red carpet for "the stranger" at that point. Not very smart.

Your example of the stranger is exciting but that stranger wasn't doing any of these things your husband was doing? Can we admit that much at least? Your stranger that gave you this great attention and I'll admit it, it sounds great to have your ego boosted by a stranger but let's admit it, he also wasnt at home taking care of the kids, the home, the bills and every other family responsibility & obligation was he? Nope he wasn't. Because in the blink of an eye, all those things that i just mentioned to you, you took for granted all for the simple pleasure of having your ego stroked by a stranger: someone who viewed you as something other than a spouse and a mother and an employee and someone who takes care of a home. You took all those things for granted just like we all take for granted like the beat of our hearts (without it we would be dead), food in the fridge, hot water in the shower, and a bazillion other things that are commonplace but don't get your attention because you have them and if they don't have your attention, they don't get your appreciation.

It wasn't in the blink of an eye. It wasn't without questions or resistance or an internal struggle. You weren't there, you have no idea what I did or didn't do. And you dont' know what he did or didn't do for his family. We were friends. It was on the internet initially, a forum for a common interest, like this (not R based). It was easy to talk about things because it felt safe. It was more than stroking my ego...it was listening to my deepest hurts and taking me seriously. The dam broke and suddenly I was telling him everything, things I've never told another soul. I'm not stupid. I knew this wasn't exactly a real situation. I thought it would never go any further, I had a false sense of security about that. His listening to me and telling me it was okay, that I was okay...OMG. The sweet talk was great, yeah, but I'm not a fool. I've resisted plenty of sweet talk in my life. I'm an attractive woman, I could get attention any time I wanted it if that's what I was going for. I have avoided that quite successfully. But to have someone care about me (or so I thought) and someone who seemed to need the same kind of caring...I thought this is it. This is who I belong with. I do not belong with this person telling me how bad I am every day. Plus, my H told me so much about how I did everything wrong and was crazy, I thought, I don't make him happy anyway!!! And OM and I are perfect for each other and fate brought us together!!! Except it was more like he targeted me, studied me, approached me with friendship and weaseled his way into my heart....we were so perfect for each other because he pretended to be interested in what I was interested in. He's a very clever person. And, really, he took in a whole GROUP of people and seemed like the center of the group of friends. He ditched all them too. He fooled a lot of people. It's his MO.

When is the last time you really said thank you (and meant it) for your heart beating, thank you for the milk & food in the fridge, for the hot water in the shower, for the car you drive, for the home you live in, for the children you may have, for the spouse you married, etc. If you had a bowl of cereal this morning and your spouse recently bought milk and brought it home, did you thank them as you filled your tummy? Not bloody likely and it's because we don't appreciate things that don't catch our attention but all of these things most people would consider essential - you would be miserable without them (imagine living in poverty in a 3rd world nation). The sad thing is that as long you have those things, you won't notice them - you would only notice those things if they were absent in your life and you needed them. If you don't notice them, they don't have your attention and they won't have your appreciation.

Again, you really don't know very much about me. My gratitude for simple things in life is one of the things that has kept me sane. I've always been amazed by people who get terminal illnesses and say now I notice the sunset or the sound of children laughing or whatever. I've always noticed those things. I have a love for life. I have prayed many thanks to God that at least I had a home and an education and enough food to eat and feed my children. For health care, for living in a free nation, for a million things. I am a grateful, thankful, loving, forgiving person. This is why I attract a$$holes.

So while you had all these things breakaway, you didn't notice them

I did notice them...

they didn't have your attention and they didn't have your appreciation.

they did have my attention and appreciation...

A stranger noticed you, provided you with some sweet talk, everything else in your life vanished temporarily into the sweet ether while you listened to the sweet dulcet tones of a stranger's voice as she showed you gentleness, understanding, appreciation, etc. all of the purpose of having his way with you. I remember you called him a predator, and you are right but you have to take responsibility for your actions: you placed yourself in that situation where you didn't appreciate anything you had in your life because you had it and it made you ripe for the picking from this stranger.

My tendency to OVER appreciate things that are called "parenting" and "paying bills" led me to tolerate a lot of mistreatment. Again, it wasn't sweet talk, which is nice, it was listening to me. Of course when he got bored he didn't want to listen to me...I thought he really understood me when he was mirroring me. I thought he was my soulmate and the long years of trauma were over and I was finally going to have love and happiness. And I also sometimes cried my eyes out because I didn't see how I could break up my family for another man and then I'd feel like dying because either option seemed impossible. Staying or leaving. OM made that decision for me in the end. Thank you, God.

When is the last time you expressed gratitude to the spouse that you have for all the things he is responsible for in your life?

I do that plenty of times.

Human nature is such that the relationship between what we have and how much we appreciate it is reversed. The more you have, the less likely you are to appreciate it. It's not that you can't appreciate it, it's just that you probably won't (and it's not just you, it's pretty much everyone). Husbands & wives do more for each other than anyone else in their lives but a spouse will feel more special if they get the attention of a stranger. We're more appreciative when someone does something for us infrequently. What we have frequently & regularly become less wonderful in our eyes because we don't have to work for those things. If you didn't have these regular & frequent things in your life, you would want them more and be more proactive about what you need to do to get it.

Again, why are you assuming I wasn't proactive. I had tried everything. I worked very hard on my marriage. I still do. He's lucky, if you ask me.

In any event, God brings all things together for good...OM's uncanny ability to read me led to me rediscovering good things about myself. Some messed up things about myself too. Spending a lot of time in IC talking about this issue has also brought me a lot of long needed healing in other areas. For example, why did I need to hear these things from a man? A certain type of man, just a slight bit older, some other details that don't matter for this discussion...what was that need all about? Why did that click? Why did I martyr myself to the point that I finally went the COMPLETE other way and do something "unthinkable" in desperation? Lots of questions. Al Anon has helped a lot too. Why do I think it's selfish to take care of myself? And let people exploit that feeling?

These things are complicated. Nobody wants them to be complicated. They want them to be cut and dried...Say this or do that or read this book and make this speech and make the spouse "snap out of it." Well, dream on. Life isn't like that.

[robx]

So I'm wrong on nearly every count.

So riddle me this batman (breakaway),
seriously, you sound as perfect as it gets,
why is it that husband does not like you because that is the picture you paint for all of us.

By your own account, you are attractive (physically) and that's a primary attraction factor for men - you got that one taken care of.

You seem to value life and all the little bits that make it up, you are appreciative & attentive, you sound educated & intelligent, you appear to have more than just a clue about things.

You seem to have so much going for you yet.... your husband doesn't seem to be that great towards you (and again that's by your account, I can only gauge the situation based on what info you provide us).

Why doesn't your husband appreciate you?
Why isn't he more caring & loving towards you?
What is it that you do that does not turn his crank so to speak? Why would your husband say that you do everything wrong & you are crazy?

I know I'm hijacking your thread Tristan but some of this may prove relevant to your own situation.

[Dia]

Sometimes the reasons for those things have very little to do with the partner and quite a bit to do with events in the H's family of origin.

When I read Breakaway's sitch, I see a verbally/emotionally abusive man with alcohol and porn addictions. Break could be a standout mate and with that set of issues, her H would still treat her like crapola.

His anger is not about Break for the most part - it is merely triggered by Break.

His alcohol issues are not about her.

His porn issues are not about her.

[tristan]

Journaling:
Wednesday:
Today started off with the normal exchange of e-mails:
--------------------------
Hi,

Girls did well again last night. Road bikes down to the school and played for a while. Then they ate, took a bath, and went to bed. Nothing too special.

Take care,
- Tristan
----------------------------

Thanks for the update. I miss them so so much…. can’t wait to see them today.

----------------------------

By the way, feel free to pick up the bike. Thank you for letting me know.

----------------------------

Around 2 this afternoon, I receive a call on my cell from her. I am on the phone with manager, so I let it go. She then calls the office phone; so I call her back.

M: "Hi. Did you call?"
W: "Yeah... I was just driving around and wondered if you had time for a cup of coffee" (She drives when something is bothering her)
M: "Yes. I can get away for a little bit. Where would you like to meet." (We work over an hour apart from each other)
W: "I can come pick you up. I will give you a call when I get there."
M: "OK. No Problem. See you in a bit."
W: "Bye"

OK. I must admit the anxiety began to set in here. I really had no idea what she wanted to talk about, but I could tell by her tone it was serious.

She calls up and I walk down to the car as nervous as could be, but was able to muster up a smile for her. She smiles back. When I get in the car, I hear the music of one of our CDs which relaxes me a bit. I can tell she is nervous as well.

M: "So how are you?"
W: "Good and you?"
M: "Fine. Thank you."
M: "So where would you like to go?"
W: <shrugs>
M: "How about a little walk. There is a nice park near here."
W: "That is fine."

We talk a little about the girls on the way to the park. Today was a very nice autumn day, leaves are beginning to change and the sound of locusts fill the air. We begin to walk in silence. I had no idea what to say.

W: "It's wierd isn't it."
M: "What you mean us?"
W: "No. Me coming out here to see you. Do you think we are wierd?"
M: "Well we are not what we used to be, it's different now."
W: "Yes. I see what you mean."
...
W: "You know when I left, I thought I would be like a butterfly. I would be able to flutter away and be free. But what I have found is that I miss us. I miss the girls. I miss our family."
M: "I miss our family too."
W: "I miss our crazy life. You know I went out with J last night and she had to leave because she wanted to go see H and kid. And I just felt..."

We walk some more in silence.

W: "So do you think we have a chance?"
M: <I pause> "Ah Yes. As long as you do. Do you?"
W: "Why do you think I am here?"

I give her the "Well it could be for a couple of different reasons" look.

W: "What? You thought I was going to serve you with papaers or something?"
M: "Well, I was prepared for it."

W shakes her head and laughs. We walk more in silence.

M: "So are you saying that you would like to try to get back together?"
W: "Yes."
M: "I'm willing. But we can't go back to what we had before."
W: "I know."
M: "We both need to make changes. I am willing to work on my part."
W: "I know I have a lot of work to do."

We walk more in silence.

W: "I looked into the counselors and read up on the website and what "Pro-marriage" counselors are. I will give one of them a call."
M: "You know some things are obviously going to need to change. I need to feel secure in a marriage."
W: "Are you talking about OM."
M: "Yes."
W: "I know he needs to be out of the picture. I know that."

Walk more in silence.

W: "Did I tell you I am looking for another job."
M: "Yes. The one at the -----"
W: "Yes. I am also updating my resume and doing searches. What time is it, I am concerned about the girls."
M: "4:00, do you want to turn back?"
W: "Yes."

We talk about lighter things on the way back to the car. When we get back to the car we stand there looking at each other.

M: "This feels wierd."
W: "How."
M: "I don't know. I feel anxious, like I am on a first date. But there is a whole lot more at stake."
W: Nods her head.
M: "So you really thought I had given up."
W: "Yes."
M: "Why?"
W: "You were so short. I thought you were so angry at me."
M: "Its not anger its..." <I pause trying to come up with the feeling I've had over the past couple of weeks, and can't figure it out> "defensive, I guess."
W: "May I have a hug."

I hug her lightly.

M: "Give me time."
W: "I just asked for a hug." and starts to cry

I hug her again.

W gives me a puzzled look and I realize I really have no idea how I feel anymore. I have been in cognitave override mode for so long now that I think I have been completely ignoring them to some extent; especially the feelings toward her.

We drive back. She tells me to have a good run and I tell her to give me a call. She said she would.

I went home after work and went for a quick run. W calls around 10:00. We talk about some small stuff. She mentions that she was thinking of skipping work tomorrow and going for a long bike ride and asked if I would like to come along. I told her that I couldn't with only 1 day notice. So she decided she is going to do it alone.

So a lot happened today. I need to sleep on it. I have been working so hard to detach. Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.

[Steve McQueen]

Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.

Ask her out on a date then. Despite what you have been told, sex does fix everything.

[Energizer Bunny]

Good for you.

How to go about it? I suggest taking her up on that bike ride. Just a different day. Maybe bring a backpack of food and have a picnic.

[tristan]

So as I have been working so hard to save the marriage; I really haven't taken time to reflect on its state. Yesterday, with W seriously discussing the possibility of getting back together, I took time to do that. I look around at the mess that use to be our marriage and wonder "Where the he!! do we start? We have done so much damage."

I am not discouraged. I know I want us to work. But currently am not sure how to get from where we are now to where we say we want to be emotionally, spiritually, logistically, etc. This is going to take time.

[RedSoxFan]

I am not discouraged. I know I want us to work. But currently am not sure how to get from where we are now to where we say we want to be emotionally, spiritually, logistically, etc. This is going to take time.

Lots and lots of time but a really awesome problem to have.

[Phoenixdeux]

A few pieces of advice:

1) Try to get out of serious mode. This is serious business, but it gets old and is no fun if you only talk about the relationship. Go for it a bit. You initiate some hugs (or even more)when you see her. This is your wife. It isn't a stranger or the first date. Put yourself out there a bit. Get natural with her. I know this part is awkward, but it helps if you try to move things to a more natural phase. My wife stayed at the house ONE night, and it was amazing how quickly the awkwardness left. She never left after that point. If you have to keep seeing her for all these awkward little talk sessions I doubt it will be all that exciting for her. Just give things a go. Have her over....and soon while she's still looking positively at things.

[robx]

Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.

Ask her out on a date then. Despite what you have been told, sex does fix everything.

LOL! Too funny! Steve you are a bugger!
(Don't let breakaway hear what you just said, she might get her husband to "take" her again)