We are in a bit of the same place right now. Funny how its not pain or sadness but a lack of those things coupled with a little impatience, anger and frustration that I feel tonight.
Yep, it is emptiness and stagnation
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
We are in a bit of the same place right now. Funny how its not pain or sadness but a lack of those things coupled with a little impatience, anger and frustration that I feel tonight.
It's been a few days since I've posted, but as I have some time on my hands I thought I'd thumb-peck an update from my blackberry.
S6, S4 (now S5 since Thursday) and I are camping this weekend, and sure enough, after a beautiful day and a nice evening, we are now socked away in the tent in the pouring rain.
It's been great to have the time with the boys, and, frankly, to have the time away from Mrs. Thinker.
On @Aliveandkicking's thread earlier today @Coach discussed backsliding as soon as we get some of what we have been missing from our spouses. Wellan that's part of my sitch as well. Starved for affection and emotional connection, I backslide each time my W opens up a bit. Once again over the past week I found myself pursuing - trying to maintain some level of connection as she withdrew again.
At the same time, I find myself walking away. I hear the narrative in the back of my mind - "I'm done." " I'm out of here." "I don't want to deal with this any more.". Even when sound asleep, Mrs. Thinker is no longer the leading lady of my dreams - replaced by an unknown other.
I've been following @GIMA's thread and the discussion there on whether you should initiate an R discussion to tell your limboland spouse that you are now starting to walk away. We'll, last night (and continued into this morning) I did.
I don't know whether it's a good thing or not, but I was honest, and it came out.
I told her that I am not happy in our M. That in our M I feel lonely, unloved, and unappreciated. I said that fortunately I didn't have to make a decision right now, but if I did, I would choose to get divorced.
She replied that "this is why we are going to the weekend (retro)n but there is just no connection and no affection or warmth between us." I agreed, but the corrected her. "There is no connection, no affection, and no warmth, I said, because you systematically deflect, cut off, or shut down any of this before it can ever get started"
I am trying, she said (repeating old lines), you just don't understand how hard it is for me. I've been so hurt for so long. And it would be easier if I had memories of a great R to fall back on, but it has never been that good.
I am getting very tired of the victim role she plays in her mind here (and in much of her life). Nothing is ever her fault, and her stories get rewritten to back this up.
Well then, I said, if that's the case, then let's make a decision and get divorced.
I can't she said. I look at our children and I just can't.
We talked a bit about Retro and I said, "I agree with you in what you said a couple of months ago. "Let's see what the retrouvaille program brings, but afterwards we need to make a decision. And if there is truly nothing here, then we need to move on and stop wasting our lives.
She cried and we didn't really talk about it any more.
I am still very hopeful that retro will help us - we have been waiting for it for 3 months now), but if not, something has to change. I can't continue to hang on to a M with someone who refuses to commit, or take resp. For her own part in the sitch.
Anyway, after that discussion I finished packing up and headed out here for the weekend. Glad to get away for a while. I needed the separation.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
I was wondering - since women are generally more amenable to reading relationship books than men are, perhaps it might be a good idea to ask Mrs. Thinker to read 5LL or DR or somesuch. 5LL because you could both do the tests and perhaps agree to try some small gestures toward each other, and DR because of the part about setting small, actionable goals and being able to ask each other for what you need.
The trouble with having an open mind is that people put things in it.
My sitch - Divorce Busted! http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804137#Post1804137
Thinker, all in all, you usually do so well. And maybe this isn't a mistake, but as R talks go, this one has its flaws. There is blaming, " You systematically shut down, etc.", there is use of absolutes, "It has never been good...". Talking to each other this way is a marriage killer. No good comes from it.
Good aspects of the conversation are: she is arguing for the marriage (big change), you are both willing to go to Retrouvaille with open minds and willing hearts. No one asks more than that of you.
Ok, the line in the sand has been drawn. You both need to do better. You both need to feel better about the marriage. I have confidence that you will!
Dia, I am not sure about the books. I asked her to read one (5LL in fact) early in our sitch, and it was a dismal failure - it was pursuit, she reacted badly, and never touched the book.
Her main objections to R books.
1) They say how to improve a relationship, but I don't know if I want this r with you at all.
2) They say how I can be more loving to you, but (because I have so much pain, etc) I don't want to be more loving to you.
3)They help you to understand how to meet my needs, but I don't want YOU to meet my needs.
The r books are only relevant if you first decide that you want the R. (Love is a decision) Through most of our sitch she has steadfastly refused to make that decision.
Lotus, you are right in pointing out that I was pointing blame. Thanks for keeping me straigh. One change from previous discussions of this sort is a) I brought up the subject of D (this was a conscious 180 for me) and b)I didn't get baited by her use of absolute negatives.
The whole conversation was fairly calm. I probably did not pull it off perfectly, but I am glad that we had the discussion. It certainly dosn't seem to have done any damage - as you pointed out, she has now started defending the M, and she checked up on us a couple of times today.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
The Thinker relationship roller coaster continues it's downward ride...
Long discussion with Mrs. Thinker last night. She had just had her conversation with the Retrouvaille interviewer (for the re-registration) and was/is having second thoughts.
Her main issue stems around the interviewer having said something like "We have to ask these questions because we want to make sure that the people who are attending are committed to working on the marriage"
She said she feels like a liar and a fake for attending. She said she really doesn't see anything in the marriage, sees little hope in it, and therefore Retro is probably just a waste of time and money.
I listened and found a lot of common ground in our viewpoints. Neither of us wants the marriage we had or have, neither of us is convinced that things can improve, and neither of us is afraid of "being divorced." Neither of us, however, wants to "Get Divorced"
The main thing she came back to again is that she can't see breaking up her family...
...but she feels like if we go forward with our M, it would be (in her words) "Like an arranged Marriage" - ie, we are not here because there is "a great foundation of chemistry and love" but because we are together and are therefore forced to make it work.
She is looking back on her memories of our R, and does not see something positive she wants to build on.
My memories are different - there was a period of time where I was definitely getting my LL's met - but I understand that we can each have different experiences of the same R.
She is also hanging on very tightly to "Love is something that happens when the 2 people are right for each other" rather than "Love is a decision and something that requires work"
I told her that in no way do I want to stay married to someone who does not choose to be married to me. Although I didn't say this, I am clear in my own mind that unless she choses, she will always put all responsibility for the R on me (as she is doing now) and continue to resent me whenever she is not happy. Unless she CHOSES to be married to ME, we will both be miserable.
We are still going to retrouvaille in 11 days. She talked about backing out, asked if we could get our check back, etc. I told her that a decision not to
We agreed that something has to change in the R. It can't go on like this. I told her that I would accept a decision to cancel Retrouvaille as a decision to stop working on the M completely, and in that case we should contact a mediator and begin the D.
I also told her that I would rather wait until after Retrouvaille to make such a decision, rather than making the decision now and then wondering "What if" afterwards.
After the discussion we split up - she needed to work and I needed to go to bed. She came and found me in the bedroom and initiated a hug - first time in a long time that she initiated.
She then fled back downstairs and I went to bed.
---
Mrs Thinker keeps coming back to a statement that "Our R has no real foundation". I started wondering this morning what she means by that. On the surface I understand what she is saying, and validate it, but what would a foundation look like to her.
I know what it would look like to me. It would be the physically affectionate, talkative R that I remember having - but that was during the time when she is saying the R was bad. So it's back to the LL concept. I was having my LL's filled and want that back. She, obviously, was not.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Somebody help me here. I think I am being far to rational.
I have heard it time after time in our discussions: "We have no foundation for a good R. We never had it"
I listen. I hear.
But I think...
- "We have 13 years of history together" - "We have 3 children, and agree on how and cooperate well in raising them" - "We like to do the same things, travel to the same sorts of places, etc" - "We have the same group of friends" - "I get along well with your family" - "We have the same outlook on health, physical activity, etc" - "We (used to) both have the same need for physical affection and sex" - "We have worked out most of our issues around money, household chores, etc" - "We are learning to communicate better than ever before"
So what do you MEAN there is NO foundation???
I don't understand.
I've asked for more info, but the answer is the same "It's 'chemistry'" "It's Genetic" "It's because you are an Aquarious(Thinker) and I am a Pisces (Mrs. Thinker)" - "Some couples have it and some (we) never will."
Last edited by Thinker; 09/28/0906:05 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Not a bad idea to see if she can tell you what she would want, but I wouldn't be surprised if she can't.
Just my $0.02 worth, but when I read your last post, what jumped out at me is it appears she is equating "foundation" with what she perceives her feelings to be or should be. Just sounds to me like she's stuck back at "love is a feeling" v. "love is a decision."
Maybe it's that she is afraid to let herself be vulnerable again. Maybe she doesn't realize that but still guards herself from re-connecting with you.
