Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.
Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.
The process is called "tagging". I've read quite a bit about it, specifically about women who leave their husbands to pursue affairs with other men. To get what they need from their husbands while these women are actively pursuing affairs & relationships with other men, they will sleep with their husbands to lull them into a fake sense of security. You called it making love because you (and men in general) associate sex with love when you are with wife. It made you feel more secure momentarily but it actually probably did more harm than good.
When she wants something from you, she will give you sex. She is exercising her control over you and it's working quite well apparently. Don't believe me? Good I welcome a challenge. Document this instance and the past several instances when you ML with your wife recently if she ended up getting something she needed from you. Document also when she says that she is confused after having sex with you, document if she sleeps in the bed with you to stay close with you after ML or if she leaves the bed for you to be alone afterwards. Document when she wants something from you, gets angry at you, turns things around and makes it your fault and somehow you end up apologizing.
Seems very analytical but humor me & yourself.
Also, try this if you're up for a challenge. The next time she wants to "ML" with you (have sex), refuse. Tell her you are confused and don't think you can have sex with her anymore. Document her reaction - maybe the first time she won't make a big deal of it but when you start holding back a few times after that, I'm betting she will get angry - she will use sex as a means to control you, or "tag" you. Refusing sex with her will make you more attractive to her - you will be communicating that you aren't conquered, you aren't waiting for the morsels & scraps of "love" she throws at you. Playing hard to get is very attractive - don't believe me? Your wife is playing that game right now and you want her back sooner than yesterday.
Just because she wiggles her ass in front of you doesn't mean you have to bite it. You're smarter than a fish, don't just bite that hook everytime you see it.
Yes you're a man and you have needs. I'm a man too, don't tell me about needs, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute, exercise some control, you'll survive LOL!
You've been warned about this "tagging" process now, look for the signs. You have nothing to lose at this point and pretty much everything to gain, start doing some homework, you have a long road ahead of you, stop doing what doesn't work and start doing what does work.
Actions speak louder than words.
Brilliant post, Rob. For the record, I find the whole dynamic kind of sad, but I also have found it to be 100% true.
Journaling: Tuesday Afternoon: Went to D5's graduation from Preschool. W was there, but I spent very litle time talking with her. She asked if I would like to walk to the store to get a little more icecream. I said I was fine either way, she said OK and went and took her mom.
WRONG ANSWER. Wishy-washy and weak.
Better: "Sounds fun; maybe a rain-check? I have to go ________ (either fill in GAL activity, or leave intentionally vague, like "have other plans I really don't want to change.")
Her touches and hugs are her way of checking to see if you're still on the other end of her string. They will INCREASE if you reject her sexually the next time, trust me.
Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.
Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.
The process is called "tagging". I've read quite a bit about it, specifically about women who leave their husbands to pursue affairs with other men. To get what they need from their husbands while these women are actively pursuing affairs & relationships with other men, they will sleep with their husbands to lull them into a fake sense of security. You called it making love because you (and men in general) associate sex with love when you are with wife. It made you feel more secure momentarily but it actually probably did more harm than good.
When she wants something from you, she will give you sex. She is exercising her control over you and it's working quite well apparently. Don't believe me? Good I welcome a challenge. Document this instance and the past several instances when you ML with your wife recently if she ended up getting something she needed from you. Document also when she says that she is confused after having sex with you, document if she sleeps in the bed with you to stay close with you after ML or if she leaves the bed for you to be alone afterwards. Document when she wants something from you, gets angry at you, turns things around and makes it your fault and somehow you end up apologizing.
Seems very analytical but humor me & yourself.
Also, try this if you're up for a challenge. The next time she wants to "ML" with you (have sex), refuse. Tell her you are confused and don't think you can have sex with her anymore. Document her reaction - maybe the first time she won't make a big deal of it but when you start holding back a few times after that, I'm betting she will get angry - she will use sex as a means to control you, or "tag" you. Refusing sex with her will make you more attractive to her - you will be communicating that you aren't conquered, you aren't waiting for the morsels & scraps of "love" she throws at you. Playing hard to get is very attractive - don't believe me? Your wife is playing that game right now and you want her back sooner than yesterday.
Just because she wiggles her ass in front of you doesn't mean you have to bite it. You're smarter than a fish, don't just bite that hook everytime you see it.
Yes you're a man and you have needs. I'm a man too, don't tell me about needs, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute, exercise some control, you'll survive LOL!
You've been warned about this "tagging" process now, look for the signs. You have nothing to lose at this point and pretty much everything to gain, start doing some homework, you have a long road ahead of you, stop doing what doesn't work and start doing what does work.
Actions speak louder than words.
Brilliant post, Rob. For the record, I find the whole dynamic kind of sad, but I also have found it to be 100% true.
Funny creatures, ain't we??
Puppy
It is sad puppy, what it basically translates down to is the female partner looking for security that she can't get out of her existing partner. The moment she can control him and dominate is the moment she knows that she can't feel secure with him anymore, that is when she loses respect & "love" for her partner and seeks security somewhere else in another partner. You would think we are a whole lot more civilized than our mammalian ancestors but looks are deceiving.
Tristan when you get a chance, can you give me some history on your situation. What prompted your wife to seek out the OM in the first place?
Journaling: Tuesday Afternoon: Went to D5's graduation from Preschool. W was there, but I spent very litle time talking with her. She asked if I would like to walk to the store to get a little more icecream. I said I was fine either way, she said OK and went and took her mom.
WRONG ANSWER. Wishy-washy and weak.
Better: "Sounds fun; maybe a rain-check? I have to go ________ (either fill in GAL activity, or leave intentionally vague, like "have other plans I really don't want to change.")
Her touches and hugs are her way of checking to see if you're still on the other end of her string. They will INCREASE if you reject her sexually the next time, trust me.
Puppy
Puppy you are right, her touches, hugs, kisses are her way of gauging her control of him - it's subconscious at this point but it will continue and Tristan has to know this and plan accordingly.
Tristan, am I reading this right, she asked you if you wanted to go down to the store to buy some more icecream. Did she want you to go with her & her mom, or did she want you take her mom to the store to buy some icecream while she stayed behind?
Tristan when you get a chance, can you give me some history on your situation. What prompted your wife to seek out the OM in the first place?
Here is a repost from earlier in this thread:
Alright, here is my public confessional:
I guess I had some sort of mid-life crisis after our first daughter was born. I tried to cram down a lot of things that I always wanted to do, but hadn't up to that point. I trained for and ran a marathon. I started a small company on the side of my career. Between these 2 things, I had very little time to help out. W was doing laundry, cooking, taking care of the baby, while mantaining a career of her own. Now that I look back on it, I was amazingly selfish. I remember I would ask if she needed help, and she would reply "No. Do what you need to do." This was an obvious cry for help, but I was completely oblivious to it.
Our second child was born. I think I became more helpful, but not nearly as helpful as I should have been. Shortly after the birth of our second child, my W took a new position at a new company as a manager. It was her first real promotion. This is also the time that she started working under the OM (but that is a sidepoint). I was supportive of the move, but I believe there was some envy in me at the time as well. I helped out more, but it was always on my terms. And for some reason, I had some sort of anxiety over the babies myself. So to help out, I would go grocery shopping while W stayed at home and took care of the girls. W rarely got out of the house unless it was as a family or to go to work.
The new career definitely added more stress on her. She had an anxiety attack a few months after beginning it. I remember being in the emergency room at 2 AM praying that the screening for MS came back negative (the way the attack presented itself was the same as some of the MS symptoms). Fortunately, they said it was "just" anxiety.
At this point, we were having major disagreements on how we spend our free time (which given our careers we had very little of). She wanted some of her free time to go out with our own individual friends. I thought that we needed to spend more time alone together by getting a baby-sitter. But she was already feeling guilty about how little the girls were seeing of us and couldn't have a good time even when we did go out alone.
Less than a year after becoming manager, she was promoted to Assistant Director. This time I know I was envious of her promotion and it showed. I was also afraid of how much time the new position would take. It would mean more travel, late meetings, etc. I remember (and she does too) a statement I made when we were talking about a week that she needed to travel and I was going to need to take care of the children: "You always seem to be trying to fill your life with something. First it was me. When I wasn't enough you needed to get cats, so we got cats. Then when the cats weren't enough you wanted children, so we had children. And now that the children aren't enough, you are trying to fill it with your career." This statement made her extremely angry and for good reason. Her reply: "Don't you dare bring the kids into this." I think this was the most visibly angry I have ever seen her. At this point, I think our marriage was in free-fall.
However, that was not the end of it. After a bad week with a single female manager at work; I made a statement paraphrased: "All the male managers at work seem to be easy-going, but the women all seem to be such b****s". What makes it worse is that I do not swear, so the fact that I did in that statement put that much more emphasis on it. I am not proud of this statement, but it was said and can not be taken back. My W took it personally and still has not let it go.
Somewhere in this time, my W invited me to MC to see if we could get things turned around between us. I agreed and we went. From the very beginning I was feeling ganged up on; and of course I was too arrogant to believe that it could be because I was in the wrong. We were fighting mainly about who should being taking care of the children and when. I would say that we needed to get more help via a nanny or babby-sitter. She would say that it needed to be done by the parents; we were away too much as it is. The marriage counselor frustrated me because we would argue, she would look at us, sigh and say "This is hard. This is really hard." And I felt we were getting little advice on how to solve our disagreements. So in one of the sessions, I got upset and said "These sessions are doing us no good. We just go home more upset at each other than when we came." My wife didn't contend the statement and neither really did the MC. That ended a short stint of marriage counselling a couple of years ago.
However, I believe that I did take some of the sessions to heart and started helping out more around the house. I was doing laundry, washing dishes, changing diapers more than I had before. But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset.
Anyway, I believe that I have been gradually changing over the last 2 years to be the man she says I am today. However, she contends that I changed overnight 8 months ago when she first told me that she was having an EA and wanted to seperate.
I know there are many more times of when I have failed her. But I tried to hit the high points. I hope that is enough detail.
I guess I had some sort of mid-life crisis after our first daughter was born. I tried to cram down a lot of things that I always wanted to do, but hadn't up to that point. I trained for and ran a marathon. I started a small company on the side of my career. Between these 2 things, I had very little time to help out. W was doing laundry, cooking, taking care of the baby, while mantaining a career of her own. Now that I look back on it, I was amazingly selfish. I remember I would ask if she needed help, and she would reply "No. Do what you need to do." This was an obvious cry for help, but I was completely oblivious to it.
If you did have a MLC, you wouldn't have bothered asking her if she needed help. Her asking for help and being neglected is the security issue I have mentioned before. The theme seems to show itself in several instances.
Our second child was born. I think I became more helpful, but not nearly as helpful as I should have been. Shortly after the birth of our second child, my W took a new position at a new company as a manager. It was her first real promotion. This is also the time that she started working under the OM (but that is a sidepoint). I was supportive of the move, but I believe there was some envy in me at the time as well. I helped out more, but it was always on my terms. And for some reason, I had some sort of anxiety over the babies myself. So to help out, I would go grocery shopping while W stayed at home and took care of the girls. W rarely got out of the house unless it was as a family or to go to work.
The new career definitely added more stress on her. She had an anxiety attack a few months after beginning it. I remember being in the emergency room at 2 AM praying that the screening for MS came back negative (the way the attack presented itself was the same as some of the MS symptoms). Fortunately, they said it was "just" anxiety.
Even though you didn't communicate this envy verbally, your body language probably did in subtle ways. You showed some insecurity on your part and this affected your wife who was really feeling insecure at the time and dealing with lots of anxiety which may be related to not feeling secure around you. She may be very sensitive to this one point and it seems you kept reinforcing that you couldn't or wouldn't provide her with the security she needed at the time.
[quote=robx] At this point, we were having major disagreements on how we spend our free time (which given our careers we had very little of). She wanted some of her free time to go out with our own individual friends. I thought that we needed to spend more time alone together by getting a baby-sitter. But she was already feeling guilty about how little the girls were seeing of us and couldn't have a good time even when we did go out alone.
Less than a year after becoming manager, she was promoted to Assistant Director. This time I know I was envious of her promotion and it showed. I was also afraid of how much time the new position would take. It would mean more travel, late meetings, etc. I remember (and she does too) a statement I made when we were talking about a week that she needed to travel and I was going to need to take care of the children: "You always seem to be trying to fill your life with something. First it was me. When I wasn't enough you needed to get cats, so we got cats. Then when the cats weren't enough you wanted children, so we had children. And now that the children aren't enough, you are trying to fill it with your career." This statement made her extremely angry and for good reason. Her reply: "Don't you dare bring the kids into this." I think this was the most visibly angry I have ever seen her. At this point, I think our marriage was in free-fall.
However, that was not the end of it. After a bad week with a single female manager at work; I made a statement paraphrased: "All the male managers at work seem to be easy-going, but the women all seem to be such b****s". What makes it worse is that I do not swear, so the fact that I did in that statement put that much more emphasis on it. I am not proud of this statement, but it was said and can not be taken back. My W took it personally and still has not let it go.
Somewhere in this time, my W invited me to MC to see if we could get things turned around between us. I agreed and we went. From the very beginning I was feeling ganged up on; and of course I was too arrogant to believe that it could be because I was in the wrong. We were fighting mainly about who should being taking care of the children and when. I would say that we needed to get more help via a nanny or babby-sitter. She would say that it needed to be done by the parents; we were away too much as it is. The marriage counselor frustrated me because we would argue, she would look at us, sigh and say "This is hard. This is really hard." And I felt we were getting little advice on how to solve our disagreements. So in one of the sessions, I got upset and said "These sessions are doing us no good. We just go home more upset at each other than when we came." My wife didn't contend the statement and neither really did the MC. That ended a short stint of marriage counselling a couple of years ago.
However, I believe that I did take some of the sessions to heart and started helping out more around the house. I was doing laundry, washing dishes, changing diapers more than I had before. But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset.
Anyway, I believe that I have been gradually changing over the last 2 years to be the man she says I am today. However, she contends that I changed overnight 8 months ago when she first told me that she was having an EA and wanted to seperate.
I know there are many more times of when I have failed her. But I tried to hit the high points. I hope that is enough detail.
Go through the points that are in bold, all of those areas show your insecurity and you communicated that quite clearly to your wife. She lost her ability to trust you for her security. It sounds like you became jealous, insecure and clingy (wasn't home at 6pm so you called her at 6:01?)
Again this is the cliffnotes version of your situation so you're getting quick feedback on it from me but IMO, this is an issue where she didn't feel secure around you, you became more insecure & clingy, she came in contact with OM who seemed to have all of his ducks in a row, very confident, strong & secure in his place in the world which was very intoxicating for a woman who was looking for security. He apparently was in the right place at the right time.
Holy cr*p robx, there was no OM in my sitch but I don't think I have ever seen it so well articulated how destabilizing it is for a woman to lose that sense of security with her H.
I have been trying to find the words and articulate it and just couldn't beyond recognizing the "dynamic"...
