M: "Did you talk to OM yesterday?" - I know this was a stupid mistake. W: "Yes. I talk to him everyday." ... W: "I would like an opportunity to explore a relationship with him." M: "Then you need to go. You are blatantly breaking our vows. You need to go." - at this point I was angry W: "You are right I need to go." M: "You might as well start looking for places. You can do it tomorrow instead of coming to my work picnic."
I feel pretty bad right now. I am dissappointed in myself for losing my cool.
I can't say I didn't see this coming. I'm not sure how you're able to document your conversations in such a detailed way (do you record via voice recorder?) but if they're as accurate as you lay them out here, I really did telegraph this a while back, especially with the mention of the open apartment the other day and other such nonsense and doing all of this, ie. having an affair, to "make our relationship better"?!
Don't feel bad, your reaction wasn't bad, it was called for, you were probably calmer than I was if your description was accurate. Putting your foot down and setting boundaries is the requirement.
Couple things, the financial stress you mentioned: please don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to finance her new place - you don't, part of leaving you and exploring a relationship with the OM is going to involve her having to take care of those finances. If she currently earns more than you do, another part of that reality may involve her paying you for child support. If you checked out SP's thread, his wife tried to make him fall into the trap of not requesting child support because she made more money than him and because he was a man and it's just not a manly thing to do to have your wife "support" you, that was her consequence for her action, he didn't fall for it, it affects her now more than she anticipated, her affair ended and I believe she is now pursuing SP for marriage counselling and possibly dating and he's detached so much now that he's feeling like a WAS now that she is starting to pursue him.
I'm going to say it again, you didn't do anything wrong.
Since you have had this much conversation with your wife and you are finally putting boundaries in place, maybe you can fit in something else. Maybe mention to her that you are now confused about your relationship with her, how easy it is for her leave the marriage to pursue a relationship with the OM. What are her thoughts on you starting to date other women, if anything to examine the feelings she's experiencing with the OM from a first-hand perspective. Ask her what her feelings are about that? Will her response be: "that's a good idea" or "you are just trying to hurt me the way I'm hurting you".
If it's no big deal to her if you start to date other women while she pursues a relationship with the OM, that may be indicative of her overall feelings towards you, maybe she checked out of this marriage a long time ago and she's just been going through the motions to see if it was possible to rekindle her feelings for you and it hasn't happened.
And don't get me started on that crap script line of her, the "... Love you but I'm not IN LOVE WITH YOU...". I swear that must be the first line in the WAS script book, first page in said book commands you to learn that line, rehearse and say it often because it has so much meaning. NOT!
Anyone ever ask what that line means. "I love you, but I'm not IN LOVE with you", I'll tell you it isn't about love at all, it's the difference between 2 specific states neither of which are love. It says I care about you but I'm not excited about you and I'm looking for this excitement that is so elusive. Caring is a good thing, it means you show concern but I wouldn't call concern the same thing as love. You can be concerned about the person in the news who was in some wicked car accident and you hope they'll recover ok but you don't love that person.
Being excited about someone is a good thing but it's not love either. It would be exciting for me to meet Bill Gates or Brad Pitt or Anjolina Jolie (very exciting to meet Anjolina), president of United States, etc. but I wouldn't call it love.
When the WAS uses that script, they seem to think that they know about two different loves but I would say they don't know much about love and are really very confused about what love means and it's probably why they're having an affair, thinking they'll find exciting "love". Say the WAS leaves the present spouse, divorces, hooks up with the new spouse, in most cases I guarantee that this person will wake up a few years later feeling the same feelings except they'll be lying next to a different body in their bed and wondering how they ended up in this mess all over again.
ILYBINILWY.... the infamous WAS script. It's a cop out. It really means that this person has no clue how to make their marriage last, so they're leaving their marriage, pursuing an affair with another person to experience the short-term high of excitement which inevitably always wears off. Nothing is new forever, eventually they'll be saying the same thing to the other person if that person doesn't tell it to them first.
The unfortunate thing Tristan is that you are too close to her to make her understand any of this, she can't believe you even if you tell her the sky is blue, if the OM tells her it's orange, she'll believe him over you. That's the state she's in.
She (your wife) needs a wake up call, ask her what she thinks about you dating other women now that you are separated to try and experience what she is going through right now and your excuse is that you are seeing if that experience will make your marriage better or if it will open your eyes to the fact that maybe this separation and eventual divorce is really a good idea after all.
Whatever you do, you will hopefully not compete with the OM anymore.
"You aren't suggesting that I confront the OM; are you? I have no idea what I would say."
If it were me, how about "What are your intentions with my wife? You are interfering with my family and I will do everything in my power to project my family."
Then I would call his wife or girlfriend or whatever and tell her what is going on.
Then I would write a letter, send it certified, to the human relations department of her work and inform them of what is going on between these two. Remind them about the possible sexual harassment issues that this relationship might cause. Ask them what they intend to do about the situation.
Yes your wife has issues, but the major issue for your marriage is this stain that she works with. You need to stop this.
But this is just me.
I never even thought of that, considering her recent promotions which were no doubt given to her by the OM (I think he's her manager) or he helped influence the decisions leading to her promotions coupled with the fact that they're having an affair - there seems to be a conflict of interest. If that happened where I work and people found about it, I'm sure there would be enough of a stink to cause a few people to get fired and with the economy being what it is, not having a job is definitely a thing to worry about.
Be careful though, getting someone fired may not necessarily make you look that great. Control those actions and the anger you must be feeling because of all this, anger tends to have a way of clouding a person's judgement into performing knee jerk reactions.
This man would be doing nothing to get anyone fired. Tristan would be informing a company that one of their managers and his direct report (who happens to be married) are having an affair. This is verboten in most companies because of the possibility of a sexual harassment suit. The employer can take any action that they deem necessary to protect themselves. And if the Company decided it was in their interest to terminate one or both of these people, well there are consequences for behavior. The truth of the affair isn't the problem. The problem is the affair itself.
I would fight this with my last breath.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
Yes, inform the company if they work together with your wife as subordinate.
Your reaction was normal, and really what should have happened, rather than falling back later on the "let's not do anything hasty here". You must be a sucker for punishment the way you have R talks almost every day. Is that the new DB, cuz the one I'm aware of says NOT to have R talks. Your wife basically said she wants to explore the relationship with OM....if next time she'll more blatantly say, "I'd like to have sex with him", are you going to keep doing the "nice guys finish first" thing?
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
Yes, inform the company if they work together with your wife as subordinate.
Your reaction was normal, and really what should have happened, rather than falling back later on the "let's not do anything hasty here". You must be a sucker for punishment the way you have R talks almost every day. Is that the new DB, cuz the one I'm aware of says NOT to have R talks. Your wife basically said she wants to explore the relationship with OM....if next time she'll more blatantly say, "I'd like to have sex with him", are you going to keep doing the "nice guys finish first" thing?
I know everyone is saying "be kind & sensitive to her because of her past sexual abuse trauma". Listen I'm not going to downplay the traumatic event for what it was, I also have alot of personal experience with this myself and if I heard correctly she is a social worker so she herself may have more than just a clue on the treatment & therapy required by people dealing with these issues. Successful treatment in this area is not long term covering several years, it's shorter 6months to maybe 2years, anything longer reinforces the role of the victim and makes it harder to shake loose those ideas & "programming".
Anywho.... using those events and that history as a crutch for specific behaviors that are being played out now is wrong. When you use a crutch for your behavior you saying that you're not responsible for your actions, I was abused as a child, this happened to me so I do this now, etc. etc.
If she is depressed, she is on meds and they appear to helping her from what I've read.
The depression didn't stop her from seeking out the OM, it isn't stopping her from wanting to pursue a relationship with him and everything else associated with it.
Tristan is playing the overly nice guy/supportive husband role and to be honest it doesn't work that well especially in this particular situation when you're at odds with your spouse.
Can we all be honest here about this. If Tristan's representations of their conversations are accurate and we can assume he's been working this super sweet, nice, supportive spouse role as well as any of us could ever have done in his shoes - it's safe to assume that it isn't working, she's pulling away even further.
During their conversations, she continues to admit openly that she continues to see the OM, have meals with, wants to pursue a relationship with him, if she feels guilty, she looks towards Tristan for a reaction and gets "it's ok, I'll still love you and support you even if you walk all over my heart".
Is anyone else reading that much so far or is it really just me that sees this.
He is communicating (or was up until recently) that i'll be here while you get to have your fantasy life with the OM, while you get to pursue a romantic, intimate, possibly sexual relationship with the OM, I'll be here with all the love in my heart waiting for you when you return and in the end, somehow all of this will make us a stronger couple.
How does this make them a stronger couple? How does tolerating your wife's affair make you a stronger couple?
Anyone chime in and explain that to me because I must be too dumb to understand how any of this will benefit their marriage?
Tristan telling her it was time to look for a place of her own was the right thing to do, no matter how much it broke your heart, it wouldn't have felt any better to have conversations with your wife that went like: "Did you see the OM today? Yes, I went to that apartment he mentioned and we made love. You must hate me for what I'm doing to you. I'm trying to get those 'in love' feelings for you and maybe by being with the OM in this affair I can generate those feelings - I don't know how I will do this but I'm thinking it might work."
It can't possibly work and by Tristan continuing to take what I would call abuse at this point after reading their conversations, all he has illustrated clearly to her is that he is a doormat, I can walk all over you and wipe my feet on you, break your heart but you'll still love me anyways.
How can she possibly respect him as her husband and as a man when she can treat him like this and he doesn't set boundaries that stop her from doing so?
And if she can't respect him, how can she love him? Women don't love men that they can control easily, they usually end up hurting & disrespecting men that they can control easily.
If she knows he'll be there waiting for her, she'll take her sweet time "finding herself", if he tells her he is questioning his commitment to the marriage because of how she let go of him so easily and is considering seeing other women to experience the same feelings she is experiencing, it will throw the situation in reverse. Up until now this has been her decision, this has been under her control, she has done anything she wanted to do up until this point without any restriction & boundaries to deal with.
Tristan when you called her later to tell her not to make hasty decisions, you flinched. You setup a boundary and then you were quick to pull it back down for fear of losing her and in doing so you communicate your fear of loss to her, something she doesn't currently feel for you.
You can continue giving her as much time in the world and be the nicest guy in the world, kind & understand & sensitive but time isn't going to fix this anytime soon and those other qualities aren't going to help as much either.
This is a very interesting thread, Tristan I still think you have what it takes to pull this thing around. She is attracted to this OM because he exhibits very attractive qualities, and while you may possess some attractive qualities of your own, you also have some very unattractive qualities.
The OM wouldn't be afraid to lose your wife - he is secure in everything he is doing, you don't communicate that as much and insecurity is a huge attraction killer. You communicate your insecurity by not setting up boundaries which determine how people including your wife can treat you. You started today to do this, I applaud you (about !@#$Z%* time!) but then you were quick to call her to not be hasty in her actions, don't worry about her actions, she has free will, she can do whatever she wants and you wouldn't be able to stop her either way. Detach, move on, GAL, and yes... the dreaded "D" word... DATE. Let her contact you, don't contact her, start limiting your communication with her, focus on being a great parent and a great person for yourself, first & foremost and start doing things that work.
During their conversations, she continues to admit openly that she continues to see the OM, have meals with, wants to pursue a relationship with him, if she feels guilty, she looks towards Tristan for a reaction and gets "it's ok, I'll still love you and support you even if you walk all over my heart".
Is anyone else reading that much so far or is it really just me that sees this.
This part, I see too.
Even before robx posted this, I couldn't shake the niggling gut feeling (based on your conversations as reported) that she's looking for you to set a boundary for her, "make her" stop seeing OM.
Obviously, my gut feeling is worth what you paid for it. But it's something to consider. Might she be feeling so torn and not wanting to "hurt" either you or the OM that she just wants someone to make the decision for her?
All that notwithsatnding, if her IC is worth his/her salt, she will be advised to put off making ANY of these life-altering decisions until she is fully stabilized on her meds for a time. By the same token, while I am sensible to some of robx's points, pushing her into a decision when her brain chemistry is in flux is unlikely to be in anyone's best interest.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
You are right. I am weak right now. I became clingy last night and this morning. Last night we slept apart, I felt I was becoming nearly suicidal; it hurt that bad. I know that I need to move on. I need to let go and let her find her own way.
Yesterday was a horrible day for me. I called OM W (she is still W, they can't agree on child custody). I asked if he was abusive, she said no. Not physically, sexually, or emotionally. Of course, she was emotionally hurt by him; but was not abused. So that puts that to rest. However, in the conversation I let it slip that W was bipolar (I can't believe how I let that out). Long story short, W found out and was angry.
She has called a lawyer and asked for a dissolution, not a seperation. A couple of things on her mental state: she said she was extrememly depressed when she talked to the psych. This was 2 days after what she still admits to be a very happy weekend. She said her IC discovered yesterday that her mood is very flat. That a dissolution should bring out a rather intense emotion and she says she feels very little emotion right now. She says she just feels numb. She says she thinks it stared with the change of med dosage on Tuesday; but that seems awfully quick.
I talked a little more to her this morning and said do you notice that you are almost always happy on the weekends and irritable and distant during the week. She looked at me puzzled and said no, but I think you are right. That is something to look into. As she left she says, "You are smart and so darn handsome."
This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.
On the way out we hugged and I asked for a kiss again (I really need to stop). She did but with no passion. Then said "I am just as confused as you are." M: "Confussion is no reason to make these decissions." W: "Please don't."
This is so hard. I know I really screwed up. How does one stop obsessing about this?
... This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.
On the way out we hugged and I asked for a kiss again (I really need to stop). She did but with no passion. Then said "I am just as confused as you are." M: "Confussion is no reason to make these decissions." W: "Please don't."
This is so hard. I know I really screwed up. How does one stop obsessing about this?
Well admitting that this is hard is the first step. It is hard, very hard, probably one of the most difficult things you'll ever have to go through.
You are screwing up: no more kissing, no more hugging, no more reaching out to her for affection, you mentioned it yourself, there is no passion or feeling in her kisses & hugs. She is now resisting your kisses, do you see she knows the power & hold she has over you, never mind the spoken word, body language is much more powerful & revealing. She is also toying with you, looking at you to get a rise from you, saying words like "handsome" to give you a false sense of security and then she pulls the floor out from underneath you. Plus when you reach out for her to get her affection you are communicating your insecurity of losing her....
STOP DOING THIS!!!
BTW - you don't have to agree to dissolution, you can agree to separation if she wants it.
Stop pursuing her.
If you do end up talking later, refuse the urge to cling to her, clingy men are the most unattractive men. If she starts talking about the separation again, tell her that maybe she is right - yes throw the monkey wrench into this, agree with her. Tell her you don't like how any of this has made you feel, that you've been wrestling with this inside your head and maybe you need to discover what you want from a partner because currently your needs aren't being met and be honest about this, your needs currently aren't being met - how could they be while she is having an affair with the OM. You wouldn't be clingy if your needs were being met, you wouldn't be insecure if you had everything you needed. Tell her that for you to understand what she is going through, you need to detach emotionally from her and go through the same discovery process and date other women and see what it's like to have feelings for someone else. Tell her all this and gauge her response and don't focus on the spoken word, focus on her body language: look at her eyes when you tell her this, does she maintain eye contact and look away first? Look at her body when you are telling her these things, does she fidget and move alot, are her arms crossed, is she standing straight & square with you or is she positioned with her side facing you? Body language is so much more important than any words she might be speaking - remember the WAS scripts, also remember that part of the affair process requires them to do a lot of lying & deceiving, don't call her on her lies, just know that it's part of her language right now to protect herself based on the things she is doing that make her feel guilty.
STOP BEING INSECURE!!!
No more hugs, no more kisses.
Yes I know it's hard, it will get alot harder... before it gets easier and it will get easier.
Those nearly suicidal feelings, I think it's normal to hurt so bad when someone you love so much is hurting you in this way. I'm not going to sweet talk you and tell you that these feelings will dissipate in a day, you may feel like this for several days & weeks. Regardless put your game face on and start considering all of this a game (yes a game you didn't choose to play but you are choosing to WIN) - don't display your hurt feelings to her, and don't you dare cry in front of her, pleading & begging to come back (seriously don't repeat this mistake that so many others end up doing, it pretty much solidifies the WAS's ideas that you aren't worth it to them, how can someone who has such low value be worthwhile to the WAS?)
Remember, you have to do things that are counter-intuitive. No gifts, no presents, no clinging, no initiatings kisses, hugs, affection, no initiating conversations, emails, txts, no more of you being an open book.
The quicker you are able to implement these things, the better position you will be in to heal from these things, improve as a person and work on turning this thing around.
Tristan I believe you're smart enough and have the tools to get this thing turned around, I wouldn't have bothered posting "volumes" of posts on your thread if I didn't believe otherwise. But it's not enough for me to believe or anyone else on this forum to believe it, you have to believe this, really believe it and then get ready for the work that lies ahead.
This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.
I'm wondering the same thing, Tristan. You KNOW the pursuing, needy/grabby behavior is the wrong move, and yet you continue to do it anyway??
Look, I know this is hard, but SELF-DISCIPLINE IS ESSENTIAL TO DBing! Without it, you're screwed.
You need to get some resolve. As Coach would say, "You can handle it."
