W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it

[25yearsmlc]

Wow. I had just caught up on everything. Obviously, if you read my whole thread; my wife does not need to be "taken". And although, I believe this can be done in a respectful way. Way too many men take this mentallity to the extreme. I know way too many women's lives have been devastated by men's behavior that believe this perverted ideal that "Women want it."

And now something that happened 20 years ago is not only impacting my W's life; but it is impacting mine and our 2 lovely daughter's lives. One man's desire for a few seconds of pleasure has far reaching effects. However, I am sure a beast like that would not care.

Now robx. I am not comparing you to my wife's rapist. But had you know her entire life's story, I think you would agree with me that "being taken" is definitely not what she needs.

By the way, although sometimes my massages do become sexual; I never assume it. I give W foot massages for a couple of reasons:
1. because she will often put on the foot lotion herself anyway.
2. It is a good time to have a conversation.

God Bless you Tristan. Can't tell you how much THIS post touched me. As I said on Orich's thread once, half jokingly, "Can a guy just give me a back rub without it leading to ML?" The guys pretty much said "NO WE CAN"T! We are men..."

I had a back surgery in 2001 and the physical therapist said to get massages for 20-30 min PER DAY and yet "No ML" for the month post surgery and I recall thinking, "well THAT Phys Therapy won't happen" b/c h was literally not capable of a massage for more than 5 min without it going elsewhere... AND truthfully, 20 min USUALLY WOULD put me in the mood, but sometimes, I just want to feel healing and not think of "are the doors locked, the kids asleep? Laundry, dogs? Will he take enough time so we BOTH enjoy it since he could only massage me for 5 min?" and lastly, I used to feel a little hurt and thought "Can h just show me physical affection without something in it for himself?"

But when I see it as something NOT necessarily leading to ML, IT IS, ironically, a turn on. That's b/c it's NOT manipulation YET it IS affection and healing...make sense?

And the point about "women wanting to be taken" is something I heard on a "how to" tape written by a man, from 25 years ago about sex and it turned me off big time. I have not been raped but came pretty close to it, and had to climb out a window to avoid it and was told "relax" about 5 times before the idiot went to get me a drink so I could run home 3 miles in the dark, thank you very much....but aside from that, it has a possessiveness abnd objectivisation about it that Hollywood perpetuates. Kind of like how sometimes Indiana Jones slaps the girl and THEN kisses her and she lets him?
That always irritates me. Or slaps the woman TO CALM HER DOWN!!

Um, that is NOT what would put ME in the moood....yeah, slap me around and I'll get super romantic...

Having said that, there IS a certain level of passion and lust that MAYBE is what was intended by that comment. Don't know. But I DO know people should read your whole thread to comment.

I have read yours. Your wife has big issues tristan and God bless you for seeing them. Listen to the shrink. Your w has NOT been "stable" for very long and you want to have this big confrontation? I mean at some point you will have to. But yeah, timing IS everything....and OM IS a jerk of course. If you do confront him, you can say among other things that YES THERE IS A CHANCE FOR YOUR M and he's trying to take that away b/c he blew his own m....what type of man does this to a woman switching meds with kids and a h who loves her at home? A cad....that's what type. Shame on him.

Kudos to you for owning your insecurities about the job promotion your w got. I'm sorry you were weak in that area and selfish but you seem to get that now. BTW MOST m's report their least happy times after the birth of the 2nd child, so you have that factor NOT in your favor but it IS normal, AND she was working full time, like I was. And that was a tough time to like being m for me too, as h was very busy at work and NOT as helpful at home as he should have been AND I had a stressful job as a full time trial L and was a mom with 2 little ones. VERY HARD LIFE and it seemed all h did was go to work, work hard as heck THERE and come home...and study or sleep b/c of sleep deprivation. He did this for years and years. We lived "married singles' lives" for years. I worked hard as heck 24/7...never got "off my shift and was always on call"...

As you can tell by the signature though, we are a success story. No not all our problems are solved, but we will remain married and committed to making and keeping it a happy one.

I only claimed the Div "Busted" a few weeks ago b/c I was not totally sure until then. We were reconciled, and in piecing for over 18 months but forgiveness was a bigger struggle than I expected (on both ends ironically) and etc etc. NO hijack intended....(also did Retrovaille and found it VERY helpful, fyi.)

You will get conflicting advice here. But it IS supposed to be in line with the DB principles and if not, imo, posters should go elsewhere to post. I mean only that if someone is arguing against DB, I don't know why they are here on this site. But it happens.

You are on track but a bit impatient about the medical issues. I mean those meds take time. At least she's working on getting THAT better. ANy chance she'd switch jobs? I mean SOON, rather than later?

It wouldn't totally = confronting IF that is not something the shrink thinks is a good idea but it WOULD lower HER stress level. What about her staying at home with the kids awhile? A vacation too? She needs to reconnect with YOU and disconnect from the stressers..../snakes, etc.

just a thought...
j-

[robx]

Hmm, actually, it is entirely possible for someone who qualifies for a clinical diagnosis (major depression, bi-polar, anxiety, whatever) to still be functional in a work environment. In fact, it is common.

I would be hesitant about using her alleged competence at work as a gauge of her overall mental state. That assessment is probably best left to her husband (who sees her in the home environment every day) and to the appropriate mental health professionals.

Dia you're correct, the possibility exists that she has mental problems, I think I even wrote in my post, "correct me if I'm wrong". But when I read blurbs about depression, bi-polar, anxiety, etc. I notice that no one ever questions that how in some social settings, people afflicted with these issues seem to be able to switch off their problems: they can function easily, happily, without any problems. As a social worker, she would know that these issues if they are serious require attention by the correct professionals and may even involve medication. However if they use these same issues as crutches and get out of jail cards so that they can do what they want and have excuses for their behaviors, it's not acceptable.

If you have the ability to function and be normal & happy with certain people, that means you are able to control these issues enough that it doesn't bother you. If you can pursue an intimate/romantic relationship with another person while you have a spouse at home, you are able to switch off your issues long enough to enjoy yourself and then conveniently flick back the switch when you get home so that you can get some sympathy & understanding for your poor behavior & actions, it would appear that you can control it.

Depression, bi-polar, anxiety - these are usually things you can't control and require therapy and sometimes medication.

If I see someone flipping a switch and becoming affected/unaffected by these issues when it's convenient to them, it would seem to me that something else is at play here: specifically lying & untrustworthy actions & behavior.

I don't think it's totally unreasonable that guilt could be motivating any & all of her actions. Something else to consider.

[robx]

As I said on Orich's thread once, half jokingly, "Can a guy just give me a back rub without it leading to ML?" The guys pretty much said "NO WE CAN"T! We are men..."

Touching between spouses tends to lead to that.

Can a guy (I'm assuming your husband) give you a backrub without it leading to ML?

Yes.

Can your husband just have sex with you without having to give you a backrub?

Maybe he's been trained to believe that you won't give him sex any other way unless he does something for you. Maybe he feels thats the only way he can get some from you? Maybe/maybe not?

Is that possible to?

[tristan]

All:

Let me add a little more history. At age 8, W was forced to take care of demented grandmother after school while her mom and dad worked. This means cooking, feeding, and cleaning up after her. One afternoon her grandmother has a fit, as often demented people will and throws a full bedpan across the bedroom. W calls for her father to help get control of the situation. She then watches her father beat her grandmother to near unconciousness and then be arrested for the assault. A 9 year old girl believes that this is all her fault.

Her mother leaves her dad and moves a couple thousand miles away with W. W enjoys the summer in new area and eagerly awaits starting in new school. A few days before school starts, mom and dad reconcile, mom moves back to live with dad. To this day, my W has no recolection of that next year. She does not remember a teacher, a school room, a birthday. Nothing.

I bring this up, because she has now had to men whom she trusts (her dad and boyfriend) really betray her. No it is not an excuse for her behavior. But it gives me pause to offer a lot more mercy.

Now on to her bipolar. Bipolar is simply having extemes on both ends of the mood spectrum. The person goes through periods of exteme happiness or irritability followed by periods of severe depression. The psych believes that she was in a long period of normalcy or hypo-mania when we were dating and first married. Everything was great for her. The psych then believes she went through the depressive stage during the times I was acting selfishly. You could see how all this would cause a severe doubting of the marriage. Throw in my behavior and the fact that her subconcious is telling her that men will always let her down. I can understand why she would begin to psychologically detach and protect herself.

This is when OM swoops in to take him under his wing. Remember, he is her manager. He applaudes her extra efforts at work. Praises her for a great job. He was doing everything I was not. I am not excusing her attraction to him, but I can certainly understand it. She is getting promotions and moving up in the workplace; she enters a new state of hypomania (hypomaniacs make very productive employees).

However, hypomania also brings impulsivity. This was great when W and I were dating. It makes life interesting and fun. Yet, it is not so good when W is secretly trying to keep the caps on a burgening EA; especially when the snake is promoting the feelings and H is absent.

Now, W finds herself in the midst of a full blown EA and the depression sets in. This time it is bad. She gets scared and runs herself to the ER because she is afraid she is going to harm herself. They diagnose her with major depression and prescribe antidepressants. This is this past December.

Now antidepressants alone have a detrimental affect on bipolars. It causes them to rapid-cycle; this is when their moods swing from one extreme to another in very short periods of time (hours to days; and I swear I somtimes saw it change 3 or 4 times in one conversation). I was ignorant, I had no idea what was going on for 4 months. I think both her and I thought she might be schizophrenic at one time. She was seeing illusions and at times quite paranoid.

Finally, the psych saw what was going on and changed her meds in early June. This seemed to get her stable for a short period of time in July, before she had a severe allergic reaction to the meds and had to be immediately taken off them. Psych meds are usually titrated up and down in dosage for a reason. When W was taken off these, it started a whole new round of instability. Of which she seems to be subsiding now. During this time, she has quit her job, planned to move (primarilly to get away from other man), got scared, asked for her job back, and decided to stay.

We have not had a really long stable period of time to work on things. I think what Robx is suggesting is considered the LRT. I think I owe her and myself more time on the other techniques before moving onto the Last Resort. Truthfully, I will feel better if she comes back under my gentle touch than my ultimatum. Don't get me wrong, either way I will be happy.

As for my self-respect. I think I determine that. I can respect myself even while my wife struggles with this. I am proud of the way I am handling the situation right now; that is what counts.

As for being clingy. You may be right. But I have heard that 90% of communication is body-language. The times I have asked for affection, I genuinely believed she was hoping I would show it. When I was clingy (and I very much was), she would always ask: "Are you doing this for yourself or are you doing it for me?" Then I was doing it for me. However, I believe last night and this morning I was doing it because I thought she wanted it. And I think her reactions showed that she did.

I have more to say on this. But not much time. I will continue tomorrow.

[Dia]

Tristan,

None of us here, regardless of whatever qualifications we have offline, are able to diagnose, assess or undiagnose your W's mental stability. If you do some research on various meds, it can take 1-4 months for the levels to become optimal depending on the person and the med, and that's assuming you get the correct mix and the proper dosage right off the bat. Additionally, all of us, with mental issues or without, function better in certain environments and worse in others. As an example, consider that many of us welcome the workday because it's a place where we feel competent and it's such a good distraction from our marriage issues.

There's a lot of good advice on these boards regarding how to handle various aspect of a troubled marriage, but we are all amatuers here, amateurs and peers. On the issue of whether or not your W is in a strong enough place to handle an ultimatum, please do not rely on any of us (including me! - though I will say straight out that I don't know if she is or not). Please rely on your own knowledge of your W and on licensed mental health professionals with direct, personal knowledge of her, you and your sitch.

[Dia]

As for my self-respect. I think I determine that.

Yes. YOU. Do.

Hear, hear!

Edit: BTW, I see you already know the stuff about getting the meds right, titrating the dosage, etc. Hope I didn't sound pedantic. If so, I didn't mean to.

[tristan]

Journaling:

Wednesday:
Conversation after work.

...
M: "So how was the appnt with the psych"
W: "It was good. I guess. He raised the dosage on my meds. He is trying to get me back to where I was in July."
M: "You felt better then?"
W: "Yes. I guess. A little bit. It should also help with the restlessness."
M: "It's good that he thinks you can still get a little better."
W: "Yes. That's Good."
M: "Did he have anything else to say?"
W: "He is really trying. He says that I should not make a big decission without finding the source of my ambivalence towards it."
<pause>
W: "I opened a checking account today."
<I was a little taken back, but kept composure>
M: "OK"
W: "I thought we had more money in savings" <with a tint of mistrust>
M: "That account is not with our bank. It is with an online brokerage. We can look at it tonight if you like."
W: "Oh. OK."
...


In our room. After girls went to bed. Wife brings up a pen and paper to ask about where our financials are. I let her know everything, it is very awkward.

...
W: "This is so surreal" - not sure if she said surreal or unreal
M: "What?"
W: "A part of me can't believe this is happening. Another says I need to do it."
M: "What part can't believe it?"
W: "I don't know."
M: "Why do you feel you need to do it?"
W: "To be happy."
M: "And how will this obtain that?"
<pause>
W: "I think it may help us."
M: "How?"
W: "I want to miss you. I want to want you. I want to feel."
M: "Did you feel this morning?"
W: "Yes, but I didn't feel like I was in love with you."
...
M: "Are you in love with yourself?"
W: "No. You know that. I can't stand myself."
M: "Then you are not going to be happy. No matter where you live."
...
W: "Let's go to sleep."
W kisses me.
W: "You are a good kisser. I will miss that."

I stay up and read for a little bit. She falls asleep on her side, I on mine. We wake up on my side of the bed together.

Thursday morning:
M: "I was thinking. If we are going to do this. Can we do it without leasing another house. It will be financially difficult and stressful on our marriage. DO You think you could ask to see if you can live with a friend for a few months?"
W: "No. I will not abandon the girls."

We discuss the possibility of her living in the guestroom and taking turns of being in charge of the girls, but live our seperate lives.

W: "I am doing this to find the source of my ambivalence. I did a decision matrix and it tilted heavily in favor of seperation."
M: "May I see it?"
W: "Yes. I will bring it home tonight."
...
< the converstation had gone in a direction where I was frustrated >
M: "Did you talk to OM yesterday?" - I know this was a stupid mistake.
W: "Yes. I talk to him everyday."
...
W: "I would like an opportunity to explore a relationship with him."
M: "Then you need to go. You are blatantly breaking our vows. You need to go." - at this point I was angry
W: "You are right I need to go."
M: "You might as well start looking for places. You can do it tomorrow instead of coming to my work picnic."
W: "Are you going to take the girls."
M: "Yes. I can take your mom too."
W: "OK"

Very little was said after that. This was the first time we left without saying much of anything to each other in a long while. I called her on the way to work and left a voicemail:
"I am angry and I am guessing you have some negative feelings right now as well. But I ask that we not do anything rash. Please don't contact a lawyer or sign a lease before we have a chance to cool off and able to talk about it rationally. Thank you. See you tonight."

I feel pretty bad right now. I am dissappointed in myself for losing my cool.

Any advice on how to handle these next couple of days is appreciated.

Thanks.

[breakaway]

You have the right to get angry, I don't think you should feel bad. She's so absorbed in her own confusion, she needs to know that she's affecting you. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't have any advice...but I think something that seems to be happening with her is that she thinks she needs to be "alone" as in living apart from you and OM to figure out "the source of her ambivalence." She's made comments that her mother thinks she needs to get away from OM (so that's good, her mom seems to see the situation for what it really is, that he is influencing her).

So... she feels constant confusion depending on who she's talking to...there's you, OM, mom, psych. at a minimum. She probably changes her mind 10 times a day. I remember times I wished I could just separate from my H just to be alone and have the pressure off of me so I could think. You don't sound like him though, but she could still maybe be feeling that way.

Her doctor is trying to get her to get to the bottom of her feelings, and maybe she thinks she can't do that when she is reacting to everything around her. She said it herself, she hates herself, and you're right. She won't be happy with you or with him or by herself until she solves that. Even if she dumps him, turns back to you...you still have a big foundational problem if she remains like that. As I said, this current situation with the OM is a symptom of her problems not the cause.

Also realize there's an element of her thinking it's probably too late considering what SHE'S done.

anyway, I have to get to work...have a good day and don't be so hard on yourself. I bet you are usually too hard on yourself! Have you found an IC yet?

[Dia]

Ok, well now that the cat is out of the bag, you need to stick to it and not back down w/o a major concession from her re: OM. The only caveat there is the possibility of allowing input from her psych to take precedence.

Here's advice from my own sitch - even if the two of you separate, do *not* file right away. Yes, a divorce takes time but having lawyers in the mix accelerates things both in terms of timeline and in terms of acrimony. Filing should not be done out of hurt and/or anger, which is what I did. A trial sep may give both of you what you need.

Here's something else I have been trying to wrap words around: When a woman has been sexually abused, she develops a very good radar for other sexual abusers, and abusers develop a good radar for malleable, potential victims. You would think the victims would use this radar to stay away from the abusers, but sometimes there is an unholy attraction. Yes, at some level we know precisely what X person is. But it's like rubbernecking on at an accident on the freeway. We can't not look. The subjective experience is a sick feeling deep in the pit of the stomach and a deep down knowledge that this will go badly. But intellectually, we allow ourselves to be convinced by the abuser's words, flattery, etc.

Things get especially muddy when a woman finds herself responding to an abuser's overtures with sexual arousal. That sends her on a real fast e-ticket ride to involuntary surrendering of control to the abuser. It happens quickly and insidiously. She may feel a very odd 'watching from outside her body' kind of thing. Her life with you and the children may feel unreal, as if she's watching it on TV more than living it.

A lot of people say that abused women must *want* to be abused, must think they don't deserve any better otherwise they would just leave (speaking entirely of OM here, not you)- but its NOT that clear cut. The subjective experience is not one of "Oh, I'm just worthless so I deserve this."

I'm treading on thin ice here - you may already know this or have no wish to hear it. If you want me to continue, I htink I'll leave it to you to let me know.

Here's one last thought - if you strongly believe that W is falling under the sway of a sexual predator, say this very directly to her psych - not just an OM, but a sexual predator. Perhaps the three of you (you, her, psych) should discuss the idea of in-patient treatment until her meds are fully optimized.

[Esox]

Going way back:


"You aren't suggesting that I confront the OM; are you? I have no idea what I would say."

If it were me, how about "What are your intentions with my wife? You are interfering with my family and I will do everything in my power to project my family."

Then I would call his wife or girlfriend or whatever and tell her what is going on.

Then I would write a letter, send it certified, to the human relations department of her work and inform them of what is going on between these two. Remind them about the possible sexual harassment issues that this relationship might cause. Ask them what they intend to do about the situation.

Yes your wife has issues, but the major issue for your marriage is this stain that she works with. You need to stop this.

But this is just me.