W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it

[Deep]

Hi,

breakaway: I hope I didn't come across negatively. I was not referring to your exchange with Robx specifically - just making some points from my own perspective. We all have our own limits on what to endure in a M, and it looks like you were put through hell.

I guess with WASs, it's impossible to draw the line sometimes. What qualifies as unacceptable violations of the the give-and-take needed in every M? What goes through the minds of people when they enter WAS mode and twist and turn reality into a format that suits their mindset? When is it a genuine case of simply one spouse driving another into desperation?

One of the issues (and points I raised) I struggled with was that if things really bad, then put in the effort to try and work things out, or in the WORST scenario, walk. Having an A is not helping is it?

Pigskin, robx, trying, tristan: Shortly after I started posting here, I realised Gucci actually referred to my sitch as another "example". And I got a bit of a earful from Sandi about it too. Now, I definitely agree that there is no one thing that will work in all sitchs, nor do I necessarily agree with gucci's views 100%. What I _can_ say is that W underwent quite a change when she felt threatened herself. (No, I did not plan it that way).

Background again: W had agreed to end A but was in contact with OM (her client) still. I had had about 7 months of the usual script: "OM is a really good, kind, and decent man", "we are best friends who found a connection and never meant this to happen", "we can still be friends", " I love you but am in love with him, but will try to work things out for the kids" ad nauseum. The NC boundary was obviously not adhered to.

Like Trying, I detached more and more with time. I had a very good friend (what Sandi called my OW), who had been there for me in the first 2 months especially and helped keep me sane. It was only later I found out she caught her H cheating too 1 week after I confided in her about my M issues. So yeah, she was in a lot of pain too, and we got very close and shared a lot. Kind of like a personalised version of this forum in some ways I guess. To be clear about this, I kept the lines clean. W knew I was talking to her and went through my phone one day when I was in the bathroom. She completely freaked out and demanded access to emails, online chats, phone records everything (she got it). And yeah, W then demanded NC with friend! She felt she could not deal with me being so close and confiding with another woman in any way - period.

When I pointed out the obvious - that while we were close, we were truly friends only and to compare W's reaction with what she did herself - W went into a flux of denial and having to face reality for a few weeks. Having what she felt was the shoe on the other foot DID seem to help wake her up.

There were (are) a million other things happening that impacted our M, mainly for the good. But the probability that people will continue to take things for granted as long as they CAN take them for granted is I think pretty valid. How you snap them out of that mode is another thing entirely.

[breakaway]

Dear Tristan,

I woke up tonight and your situation was really on my mind.Something Stronger had said to someone else was percolating in the back of my mind...she'd asked someone else if he could be her W's white knight. I thought OM was the white knight, that he was going to rescue me from my suffering...but he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I know it is a lot to ask someone to endure the OM situation..but the wolf is at the door, tristan. She's a fragile person right now.. please think long and hard about pushing her out, towards him. He is telling her you don't really love her, that you never loved her, that you don't know how. Proving this wrong doesn't make you weak, or spineless. There is a difference between self-respect and "pride" the kind of pride that cuts off its nose to spite its face.

Time is on your side.Only you know how much you can take, but I would plead with you to take the longer view, bide your time, to get support for yourself, and at least for the moment, try to protect her from herself. That is NOT a long term solution, and I don't mean it as such...but divorce is permanent. One thing that stuck out in my memory from Michele's book is...you can always get divorced later. You can always make an ultimatum, you can always ask her to leave, but you don't have much to lose by continuing to show her the real person you can be now, when she's in your home. You bailed on her the first time when you quit marriage counseling. Somewhere inside she expects you to bail on her again...OM is using that against you, I promise.

Some here would say, hey that's the consequences...but she's the mother of your children. What happens to her, happens to them too. You don't strike me as someone who would take any pleasure watching her fall on her face.

I would not give this advice to everyone...but I feel compelled to say this. I feel it in my bones that this woman needs your mercy right now, not tough love. Time will tell if it will work. Her problems may be too great for your marriage to bear, and I don't advocate sacrificing yourself for a lifetime for someone who can't get straightened out. But for now, try not to look at her as someone to fix, but as someone who needs your protection right now.

The wolf is at the door, tristan.

~breakaway

p.s. tristan is a knight's name

[pigskin]

Well put, breakaway. Pretty much how I feel with my wife right now. She is confused and fragile, but she's not getting anything but a fabulous husband out of me right now.

I won't put up with this forever. But like Dia says, I'm not empowered to end my wife's EA. Only she is. I will control what I can control. I am strong and confident and don't take any crap from her. Time is on my side, and I know the OM is a quivering mass of clingy goo due to his own sad marriage. He is a snake, but he's definitely no match for me.

[hoosiermama]

He is a snake, but he's definitely no match for me.

oooohh, excellent! you get the attitude award for today!

[robx]

Time is on your side.Only you know how much you can take, but I would plead with you to take the longer view, bide your time, to get support for yourself, and at least for the moment, try to protect her from herself. That is NOT a long term solution, and I don't mean it as such...but divorce is permanent. One thing that stuck out in my memory from Michele's book is...you can always get divorced later. You can always make an ultimatum, you can always ask her to leave, but you don't have much to lose by continuing to show her the real person you can be now, when she's in your home. You bailed on her the first time when you quit marriage counseling. Somewhere inside she expects you to bail on her again...OM is using that against you, I promise.

Some here would say, hey that's the consequences...but she's the mother of your children. What happens to her, happens to them too. You don't strike me as someone who would take any pleasure watching her fall on her face.

I would not give this advice to everyone...but I feel compelled to say this. I feel it in my bones that this woman needs your mercy right now, not tough love. Time will tell if it will work. Her problems may be too great for your marriage to bear, and I don't advocate sacrificing yourself for a lifetime for someone who can't get straightened out. But for now, try not to look at her as someone to fix, but as someone who needs your protection right now.

The wolf is at the door, tristan.

I won't agree with much of what breakaway has to say but part of your plan can include letting this situation ride for some time. Give yourself a time frame that you're comfortable waiting before proceeding with action. The idea is to have a plan, write it out if necessary and follow it through. "...We've been at this for x number of months, I will give her another x number of months, if there is still no improvement on her part and she isn't showing any real signs of improvement, after x amount of months I proceed with asking her to make a decision to choose me and stop all contact with the OM and to commit 100% to our marriage and the required work to rebuild it or I will make the decision for her because I choose not to live in limbo - my life is just as important as hers and I choose not to waste anymore time after this."

Time is precious, time is finite, time is linear and it's something we never get to reclaim, once today is gone, it's gone. We don't know what our lives hold and placing our lives on hold or more accurately, allowing others to place our lives on hold is disrespectful. Give her more time, determine what you're comfortable with Tristan, base it on how much time you've spent in "limbo" and how much more time you can do this but always respect yourself. If you give her x number of months to get this resolved and she is still doing the same thing at one point you're going to have to realize that some people would rather live in limbo & uncertainty than be responsible with the lives they live & affect. People who have open relationships (spouse and the other person on the side) tend to want to maintain these relationships as long as they can when they're enabled to do so because they get something different from each partner, different needs are met by both partners and that is a hard thing to let go of.

Be the best husband you can be right now, give her your mercy, love her, be there for her, respect her, take care of her, give her the security of being your wife.

But... don't tolerate the open relationship, give her some more time to make the decision and I know this is something you're wrestling with inside your head because lately it's bothering you and it's something I understand. You are giving 100% right now and you aren't getting back from your wife what you feel you should be getting, your needs aren't being met and you're placing them on standby while you figure this situation out with your wife. You're a great guy and you're handling this all as best as you can. However at one point, if it hasn't started already, you will ask yourself what am I doing all of this for? A relationship, a successful one is mutually beneficial and it currently isn't for you, if it was, we would never have heard from you on these forums. I'm going to validate you as well, it's ok for you to want your wife to love you properly which means wanting her to turf the OM and start focusing her energies on you, there is nothing wrong with that, it definitely isn't selfish and even being selfish isn't all that bad either: if you want something and you're honest about it, you're not hiding it, you're not manipulating something or somebody to get it. The longer you put your needs on standby you will notice that you start to become a little bitter, a little angry, unloved and you will start questioning yourself, "why me? what's wrong with me? why can't you get what you need from me? why can't you communicate your needs to me and ask me to fulfill them?", you'll become bitter, needy, start to develop insecure habits, possibly some anger.

Before the naysayers jump in, this is all human nature and me admitting it is honest. Everyone wants to be loved, everyone deserves to have their faith & effort rewarded and when this doesn't happen, we tend to become unhappy, confused, disoriented and we question our self-worth.

Tristan give yourself a reasonable amount of time you can continue to be in your current situation without hurting yourself too much but don't give her forever because if you do, she'll take forever in this current situation if she can.

One last thing before i drop off,
We always want what we don't have and what we have we usually take for granted.

Diamonds are valuable because they are rare, if you could step in your front yard and scoop up a handful of perfect diamonds out of your flowerbed along with all your neighbors being able to do the same thing, they wouldn't be as valuable would they?

You want your wife to stop seeing the OM, you currently don't have that but you want it. This is something you attach value to.

You want your wife to give you the same energy that she's been investing in this OM and you currently don't have that either, this is something you attach value to.

You want a great marriage free of issues & infidelity and you don't have that, it is something that you attach value to.

Your wife has you, this great husband while she still sees & contacts this OM intermittently. You have some value to her but she has you so the value attached to you isn't as high, coupled with the fact that she still has this OM, who has some value in her point of view as well. She has both of you and although you both possess some value, one doesn't appear to be more important to the other, how could it be, she's risking losing you while maintaining a relationship with the OM and if she can risk losing you that translates into you not being as valuable to her at the current moment. If you were to move on at one point, it will be your decision, not hers and at that point you would have alot of value because you've taken the choice from her - she no longer gets the luxury of spending time with both of you, she no longer gets the luxury of choosing who to be with, she no longer has the luxury of the life & security you offer her.

Always remember your value, you are high value.

Give her some more time, set up a period of time that you can continue to tolerate this current situation, set up a plan and follow it through. You must have a plan for either scenario: her choosing you or her choosing the OM - failing to plan is actually planning to fail.

[Dia]

I agree with the whole have a plan and a timeframe idea. The time frame can always be adjusted up or down depending on changes in the sitch, including changes in your own tolerance, but yes, you can't let this go on forever.

I am NOT trying to tell you what to do as you know your own sitch and your wife's mental state far better than we do. I think maybe you've done this already, but perhaps it would be wise to discuss an ultimatum with your IC prior to implementation?

Hang in there. It's a long row to hoe and we've all been down it.

[tristan]

Journaling:

Tuesday:
W called and asked if I could meet them atthe park after work and asked if I could get some food for a picnic. Of course I agreed. She seemed to be in a better mood today. The picnic was good. I am noticing that D3 is really getting attached to me. She is one that requires a lot of affection. It feels good. While I was out playing with the girls; I noticed that MIL and W were having a serious and emotional discussion. I get to the bench; there are tears in W's eyes.
W: "Mom wants me to come back home with her."
M: "Why?"
W: "To get my life back together."
M: "What do you think?"
<silence>
W: "D5 could go to the little kindergarten in the mountains."
<silence>
W: "She thinks I just need time away from OM. She thinks that I should give you another chance."
MIL: "I am very sorry for your situation."
W: "I am giving you another chance. I'm still here. Aren't I?"
...
M: "I love you. Right now I am just trying to figure out how."
W: "Are you thinking of seperation?"
M: "No. Not at all. It's just that some days you need me close; others you need me to let go. I never know what you want from me"
...
M: "Did you see OM yesterday?"
W: "Yes."
M: "After Work?"
W: "No. For lunch."
...

The conversation continues as with the children in the car.
W <crying>: "I hate this; this is all my fault."
M: "No. We are both to blame. I am the one that drove you away."
W: "But I am the one that opened my heart to another person. You should be leaving me. I shouldn't be leaving you. I don't deserve to be with you."
M: "Don't think that. I didn't deserve you for the longest time. You need to think better of yourself."

Conversation ends as we drive home seperately. I put the girls in the bath while W takes MIL to store to grab a couple of items. W gets back before girls are done with bath. We put them to bed. D5, W, and I end up in D5's room listening to Lisa Loeb children's music (a very tolerable in fact enjoyable children's CD; I have actually listened to it with no kids in the car). W put's her head on my chest as a stroke her hair. D5 spends the time getting her doll ready for bed. D5 goes to bed and we move to our room.

W: "You should be happy that you stole my mothers heart."
M: "I am. She is a good person."
W: "She is doing this because she loves you. She loves me. She loves us."

...

W: "I am horrible. I don't deserve anything."
M: "Don't think that way. You... we need to keep our heads high. We are worthy human beings. We are human - we make mistakes. It does not mean that we are not worthy."
W: "Thank you, you are right." - kisses me on the head

...

M: "You know we need a plan? We are living in limbo. This is not good for you. It is not good for me. And it is not good for the girls."
W: "I know. Are you going to kick me out?"
M: "No. I will never to tell you to leave. But I do need to figure out my boundaries, what I can accept. And then the hard part is figuring out what to do when they are broken."
W: "What are you thinking?"
M: "I really don't know."
W: "You are getting advice, what does IC say?"
M: "Its all conflicting."
W: "IC says you need to leave?"
M: "He says it is something I need to think about. I'm not there."
M: "Do you desire to work on our marriage?"
W: "Yes."
M: "Would you be willing to go to couples therapy?"
W: "Not now. It is too soon."
M: "OK. Do you have a plan?"
W: "Well. I am going to seperate."
M: "Do you have a plan for that."
W: "I need to find a place."
M: "Is that it?"
W: "Then I will need to set up a seperate checking account. I guess I need to look into what needs to be done."
M: "Hasn't OM been helping out with that."
W: "Yes. He has an open apartment on the other side of town. He's offered it to me. But I am not going to move there. I want to be close to here; near daycare and D5's school."
...
M: "Did you kiss him (OM) yesterday?"
W: "No. I didn't."
M: "Thank you. Thank you for respecting our marriage, respecting me to some extent. And respecting yourself. I don't believe you want to be that type of person."
W: "I don't."

Logistics, finances, of a theoretical seperation are discussed.

W: "All I need from here is the couch in the basement and one of our tables."
M: "I guess that would be the one in the dining room. Wait, that is grandma's."
W: "You are right, they are both family heir looms. I guess I will have to get my own table."
<pause>
W: "As I think about it. There is nothing here that is mine. Everything is yours."
M: "There is a lot that we bought jointly."
...
M: "Do you know what you want?"
W: "Yes. I just don't know how to get there."
M: "What is it."
W: "I want my own place. I want to move out."
M: "OK."
W: <obviously surprised at my response> "What was that shrug for. Don't you care?"
M: "No. It's not that. I am comfortable that I have done everything I can to make this marriage work. There is nothing more I can do now. It doesn't mean I will stop trying to make us work."
W: "You know you will be able to visit."
M: "You will be welcome here too."
...
M: "Is my picture still up at your work?"
W: "No."
M: "When did you take it down?"
W: "Yesterday... Then I took it out this morning... put it back... took it out again... and put it back. I am so screwed up." (smiles)
M (smiling): "You say you still want to be friends."
W: "Yes. It's not the picture, it's the frame. All that love stuff."
M (still smiling): Well you say you still love me."
W (smiling): "I will probably take it out again tomorrow."
...
W: "OK sweetheart. I'm tired. Let's go to sleep."
M: "Well. You know. We are still in this room and it was only last week that you put up that sign." pointing to the "Always Kiss me Goodnight" sign above the bed.
W: "I don't think it was last week."
M: "OK. Maybe 2 weeks ago."
w: "Come here."

I spend most of the night on my side of the bed. But couldn't sleep. Surprisingly, I was not anxious. I think I was more exhilerated. For the first time in a while, I felt I was in control. Even if it was a bad situation, I was in control. Finally, I rolled over to put my arm around W. Touching her always helps me sleep. By morning, she was on my side of the bed.

Wednesday:

Spent most of the morning seperate, doing our own things. I went up to say I was leaving. She was inside the closet.
M: "I'm on my way out."
W: "OK. Have a nice day."
M: "Do I get a kiss?"
W: "How about a hug? You don't seem in the mood for a kiss."
M: "OK."
W: "I noticed that you were up last night."
M: "Yeah, I couldn't sleep. So I read a couple chapters. Don't worry. I am fine. I am actually impressed with how well I am doing."
W: "I'm impressed too. You need to keep taking care of yourself."
M: "I prefer work on myself."
W: "Same thing."
M: "Work implies that it isn't easy."

I gently kiss her; not long but good. She comes back for many more. I want more, but stop. I don't want to be too easy.
M: "That was good."
W: "Yes."
M: "Have a nice day."
W: "You too."
I walk towards the door
W: "Love you." as I am nearly out the door
M: "Love you too."

That felt good.

[tristan]

Hi breakaway, Robx, et. al.

I agree with all of you that I should give this time; but also have a plan. As you see from above, I am trying to figure this out and being somewhat transparent with W about it. She is not enjoying the situation she is in at all.

Thank you all for your help. It is amazing how much clearer my mind has become in the last few days.

Breakaway - Funny that you bring up Tristan. Last night as you wrote your last post, I believe I was up reading the story of Tristan. The unfortunate thing is that I don't believe it is going to end well for him. But I am amazed that you would log on and post advice to me at 4 in the morning. It touches me that people care that much here.

Again. Thank you all.

[Phoenixdeux]

Tristan,

That doesn't sound terrible, but what doesn't sound good is this "are you going to give me a kiss?" stuff, and the goodnight kiss stuff. In time you may realize that your wife is capable of being lovey-dovey with you so as not to hurt you. But look at the bottom-line. She wants to separate. She isn't ready for counseling. She hasn't stopped seeing OM. Those actions are the most telling.

I'm not suggesting you play hardball, but I am suggesting that you need to tone down this "can I have a kiss" stuff. You could stand to be a little less clingy, or whatever this is. I think to a woman (that is cheating) that it's desperate, needy, and unattractive. From what she's said, I think she could stand to have some doubts about where you stand with this. I think you could tone down the reassurances. I also think you could quit taking full responsibility for this ala, "I pushed you into his arms". There is a point where being Mr. Kind and Understanding just looks like Mr. Wimpy and Desperate.

[Kettricken]

I also think you could quit taking full responsibility for this ala, "I pushed you into his arms".

Agree with this. Ghosts from her past notwithstanding, she is an adult and *deserves* ... in the positive sense of that word ... to be allowed to own her own decisions and their consequences.

Some of us(including myself) are always in danger of soft-pedaling or overnicing a response to a spouse because *we* cannot bear to see the evidences of *their* pain play out in front of us. That's understandable, but does nobody any lasting good.

I LOVED how you expressed yourself here:

W:.... You need to keep taking care of yourself."
M: "I prefer work on myself."
W: "Same thing."
M: "Work implies that it isn't easy."