Insecure men are clingy men that seek approval and don't take alot of initiative in their lives and I know that isn't attractive.
I think the point robx is that you can't make an insecure man secure by telling them initiating sex will make them appear more secure.
They have to get to a place where they feel secure and that requires detachment and at this point I agree that dating might help too. You just can't fake it and that is basically what you are proposing because it just isn't real.
[ So how am I doing so far? Not that your opinion matters but I'm just curious as to how you're going to blow up over this response. ;-)
Of course my opinion doesn't matter...I'm just a woman. An emotional woman who "blows up" instead of a real man who is honest and direct and speaks his mind. Which wouldn't be a double standard or anything.
I couldn't possibly know what a woman is thinking better than you, of course...you, who don't even have to read people's threads to give them love advice. You don't have to bother to read a guy's sitch to know what would be appropriate in dealing with his woman. You know how to train pets. ;-)
Since none of this has anything to do with tristan's complicated situation between two human beings, I will let that be enough.
Apologies, tristan, for hijacking your thread. I don't think you sound insecure or are acting insecure...what was insecure was when you were jealous of your wife's promotion and took it out on her in a passive aggressive way. But you know that now and are moving forward.
This would NEVER have worked for me. When I felt that the R was suffering, that everything was falling apart, the LAST thing I wanted was sex and physical contact. It felt crass and oblivious and self-centered on H's part given the reality of where we were at.
Women (if we are going to generalize here) want to feel emotionally secure and connected and then physically connected...
Unless you have full confidence in yourself (which no one posting their sitches on here has) I would not touch that one. Maybe that is what you miss Robx, you can't just tell a guy who is flailing to do this stuff. You are taking a valid position but applying it to a context that it just usually does not fit into.
Keep pushing the physical and the W feels more like an object, less understood and de-valued.
Oh, and women know what a foot rub offer means...
That is just my opinion, don't want to argue about it.
So am I reading any of this correctly, men aren't allowed to ask for sex just for sex itself?
So when the WAW's are having physical affairs with OM that don't happen to include their actual husbands it's because these OM have connected to them on an emotional level and it isn't just about new & exciting sex?
So men should stop pursuing sex from their wives when their wives show disinterest in them?
Here's another question I'll throw out there: If a man asks his wife for sex, purely for sex - is that a bad thing?
And another question: How long should a spouse (man or woman) remain in a sexless marriage and lie say that sex isn't important to them?
Alot of married men associate love from their wives with the physical act of sex - so when their wives withhold sex, couldn't it be viewed as those wives not being emotionally supportive of their husbands? And since women tend to be more emotionally intuitive than men, this fact is known to them so when they withhold sex from their husbands they know that they are also withholding to some extent love as well and they know this hurts their men but continue to do so.
This whole emotional security issue is a vicious circle and we need to admit it. Women want to feel emotional security and connected and then physically connected while men require the physical connection to feel emotionally connected.
AAK, men require confidence in themselves and that is what I'm preaching here, nothing more, nothing less. The confidence to ask for what they want, the confidence to speak up when they're being disrespected, the confidence to stop doing things that don't yield productive results, the confidence to let go of the people that don't value them and the relationships they're in with them.
Some women will take a footrub as a footrub, some will take it as something more, if she accepts your offer of a footrub, don't complain and just enjoy the footrub for what it is - that is all I said.
That is MY opinion and I'm not arguing with anyone.
[ So how am I doing so far? Not that your opinion matters but I'm just curious as to how you're going to blow up over this response. ;-)
Of course my opinion doesn't matter...I'm just a woman. An emotional woman who "blows up" instead of a real man who is honest and direct and speaks his mind. Which wouldn't be a double standard or anything.
I couldn't possibly know what a woman is thinking better than you, of course...you, who don't even have to read people's threads to give them love advice. You don't have to bother to read a guy's sitch to know what would be appropriate in dealing with his woman. You know how to train pets. ;-)
Since none of this has anything to do with tristan's complicated situation between two human beings, I will let that be enough.
Apologies, tristan, for hijacking your thread. I don't think you sound insecure or are acting insecure...what was insecure was when you were jealous of your wife's promotion and took it out on her in a passive aggressive way. But you know that now and are moving forward.
Since I never used the term "training pets", it might be safe to assume you have experience in this ;-)
The success I have achieved in my own life has been from being deprogrammed from this "trained pet" mentality.
Breakaway if you happen to "blow up" as you put it, instead of communicating honestly & directly, then that is what you do and I'll leave you to your ways.
As for knowing what/how a woman thinks, you probably have more than a clue but... (and you knew there was going to be a but), you don't know what any specific man or woman is ACTUALLY thinking. If you can admit to just that much, it's quite possible that in this situation, you could be right and possibly I could be right - I can entertain both possibilities but it sounds like you can't.
Insecure men are clingy men that seek approval and don't take alot of initiative in their lives and I know that isn't attractive.
I think the point robx is that you can't make an insecure man secure by telling them initiating sex will make them appear more secure.
They have to get to a place where they feel secure and that requires detachment and at this point I agree that dating might help too. You just can't fake it and that is basically what you are proposing because it just isn't real.
I agree you can't make anyone more secure by telling him to be more secure but you can get some measure of success by breaking free of the insecure mentality by actually doing something different from what you've currently been doing.
If sleeping next to his wife for several months in the same bed and not initiating sex has kept him "sex free", possibly taking initiative and speaking to his wife about it might get him somewhere different.
Doing the same thing over & over again but expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
I'm just saying do things differently if you want different results.
I have chosen to be honest, direct and say what's on my mind and it's been working for me.
Being honest and direct doesn't make you correct.
First off I was replying to Orich since he popped into this thread.
No one said being honest & direct makes me correct, it does make me honest & direct though.
Since being honest & direct isn't your cup of tea breakaway, would it be more emotionally supportive of you & your feelings if I was indirect & lied to you - not sure what kind of point you were trying to make about the "honest & direct" point I made.
In short, robx, I think asking for sex just for sex is great...caveat- when a marriage is in tact.
This is about reality, not what should be.
Yes, having an affair and/or withholding sex are emotionally abusive behaviors. However, there is always something happening within the dynamic that is perpetuating it (and those two are VERY different things, affair or withholding).
We are not talking about what should be but what is. When a woman leaves the R emotionally, sex is usually not the way back in.
The confidence the men here need (the women too) is confidence that needs to be generated separate and apart from a spouse who has essentially demeaned and disrespected them. I joked with my H that he would want to have sex with me even if we were signing D papers and I was right. Sex is sex. It means almost nothing once the relationship is on the ropes. And women are particularly sensitive to this. Seeing as DB is about trying to salvage a M in which one person is actively leaving...unfortunately, fair or not, it is important to pay attention to what that spouse needs to feel secure or at least open to the possibility of a satisfying R.
I agree that optimally, sex should be without strings and yes, I want to be "taken" but not by someone who is failing to deliver in every other area.
[quote=robx] LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.
Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.
Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.
Your response shows your insecurity if you know it or not. Which is unfortunate for you, I'm not affected either way.
As far as "been there done that", were you the one that initiated the affair or was it your spouse? Would being honest & direct have helped in that situation if one you weren't getting your needs met or was it more satisfying to experience the dishonesty & lying which accompanied the physical affair?
[quote=robx] LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.
Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.
Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.
Your response shows your insecurity if you know it or not. Which is unfortunate for you, I'm not affected either way.
As far as "been there done that", were you the one that initiated the affair or was it your spouse? Would being honest & direct have helped in that situation if one you weren't getting your needs met or was it more satisfying to experience the dishonesty & lying which accompanied the physical affair?
lmao....the entire last page is an example of your gaslighting, circular reasoning, word twisting, etc etc. (ex. saying I'm the one who says I blow up, when I was responding to you saying it first...nice try)
You want to know about me, you can read my threads. My life has been a living hell for the last several years as anyone who has followed my sitch knows. I made a bad situation worse, and I've said so. My point was that I have personal experience in what WAW's think and do and what verbally and emotionally abusive husbands think and do and what psychopathic online predators think and do. (One thing they do is read stupid websites like the Art Of Seduction to come up with ideas like how to massage your way into sex with someone who is resistant.)
+100 to everything aliveandkicking said...especially that we're talking about broken marriages here, not intact ones.
And Orich and whomeever else is reading, check for my updates later (I don't have time right now) because I can tell you guys about the hot sex my H HAS been getting since he started treating me like a human being instead of his personal possession.
I'm here, if you need another ear. I am also dealing with a spouse with an undiagnosed mental issue. He's only being treated for anxiety/depression and has been all over the board with meds....so on that note - I feel for you. It's tough to watch and super tough to deal with.
As far as dealing with someone with this issue....there is no quick fix and that alone, throws a whole other twist into the ordeal.
Breakaway knows her stuff, aliveandkicking I agree with too.
