Thanks for the story Goldey. You are true to your namesake. It's interesting. We never hear from the one that got away to know that the assumptions don't work. I hope that all will be well now that you are back at home. But I still don't think of you as a WAW. I think of you as an escapee. There is a difference.
Thanks for sharing your experience and choices. Keep your Bullsh*t Meter on and keep listening to your inner voice. "Codependent No More" was a favorite read of mine.. lots of tidbits and 'oops, I thought that was a good thing!' moments.
Warning: I'm in a funky mood this afternoon. Ugh. There are moments, few and far between, when I'm tempted to try again. Put the past behind us, and really try again. Those moments last about 15 minutes. Then the Fear comes back, and I'm paralyzed. Do I give H any credit for making changes? Nope. Am I happy with the person I see in the mirror? Double nope. I feel like such a fraud. Today I had an image of a burned piece of wood. Blackened. Changed at the molecular level. No matter how badly it wants to be a 2x4, it's not gonna happen. I know, I know, that burned piece of wood still has value, and can become something that an un-burned piece of wood could not. I will move ahead when I accept what is, instead of what I wish was. Most of the time it works, it's much harder on the tug-of-war days. Like today.
I guess I'm not quite understanding the wood image. Is it supposed to be you..or your marriage? Sorry, I was a little confused.
You know, goldey, you're entitled to all your feelings...all of them, including what you wish things could be. Don't berate yourself for not "accepting what is" too much. Maybe what is, isn't good enough. But it's what ya gotta do for now. You're hardly a fraud! It sounds like you've turned all those pesky expectations around on yourself! ;-) What is it you think you're "supposed to" be or feel?
And please don't minimize your feelings of what you've been through with your H...even if he's made changes, that doesn't mean your trauma just goes away. (And of course, the abusive types want EXTRA credit for anything they do that's good, while tending to hand out demerits for you even feeling bad about anything.) I'm glad you have an IC...what is this person's opinion about abuse recovery, and what you should realistically be expecting of yourself?
I guess I'm not quite understanding the wood image. Is it supposed to be you..or your marriage?
It was about me, and the image didn't make a lot of sense to me either.
Quote:
You're hardly a fraud! It sounds like you've turned all those pesky expectations around on yourself! ;-) What is it you think you're "supposed to" be or feel?
I feel like I'm half in, half out. I'm married, but I yearn for a marriage. I'm having more trouble staying detached since moving back (co-dep, remember?).
Quote:
And please don't minimize your feelings of what you've been through with your H...even if he's made changes, that doesn't mean your trauma just goes away.
Yup.
Quote:
(And of course, the abusive types want EXTRA credit for anything they do that's good, while tending to hand out demerits for you even feeling bad about anything.)
Double yup.
Quote:
I'm glad you have an IC...what is this person's opinion about abuse recovery, and what you should realistically be expecting of yourself?
Confession, I haven't been for several weeks, due to the fact that 1) weekly visits getting expensive and 2) not making any progress (my opinion). BTW, I am aware I put way too much pressure on myself.
Family is at the beach, annual trip with church going on 10+ years. I boycotted, and am so glad I stayed behind. I've hated that trip the last few times and it felt good to take a stand. The house is quiet, peaceful. It reminds me of my apartment. I'll use this time to practice doing what Goldey wants. Oh yeah, GAL, I remember that. Peace.
Cute, Sara. I'm smiling...really smiling. Feels good. It's been so long since I've felt much of anything. This week, although up and down, has at least had some ups. That's progress. Peace.
I feel like I'm half in, half out. I'm married, but I yearn for a marriage. I'm having more trouble staying detached since moving back (co-dep, remember?).
Here's a different perspective on detachment and codependency...I can't find the link right now, but there's the text: The preachers of codependence say that you are to blame for how the narcissist's abuse makes you feel. They say that no one can make you feel anything. That if you feel bad about abuse, it's your fault. Specifically, you lack self-esteem. Shame on you. That makes you a victim. And it's bad to be a victim.
If that isn't blaming the victim, I don't know what is.
I ran across this example on the web: It starts off in the title saying that no one can make you feel anything, though the writer admits it's hard to achieve this mental armor.
Lets say someone comes up to you and says you are a liar. Inside you know you always tell the truth, you are confident in that and don't feel threatened by the accusations of this other person because you know youself, you know how you treat people and you don't care what others believe about you, you let your actions speak for you. The idea is if your self esteem is HIGH enough, and you are not dependant on the opinions of others, then you would be able to blow this off and feel secure in the knowledge that you are not a liar. The power then, that this other person seems to have over you is lost because you know the truth and you have faith in yourself/ your higher power.
It's hard to know where to begin disentangling this mess.
Presumably, the third sentence contradicts the second because the writer got the cart ahead of the horse and meant to say that 'only if your self-esteem is high will you be able to know that you are not a liar, etc.' Which is absurd. Your self-esteem can be in the pits, and you'll still know that you're not a liar.
This literary spaghetti confuses mere insecurity with being brain-dead, so brain-dead that if someone tells you that you are 3 feet tall, you believe them.
And what follows doesn't follow: "You know you always tell the truth, so you are confident and don't feel threatened by the accusation, and you don't care what others believe about you." There are two – count 'em, two – absurdities in that sentence.
First, being honest makes you feel unthreatened by the accusation that you are a liar? That's absurd. Being honest does not make you immune to damage by being called a liar. If you are a liar, THEN you suffer no real damage by being called a liar, because then you are just getting the reputation you deserve. That's justice. No foul. But when you're honest, that false accusation can make your whole past life go up in smoke. That's damage. The threat is real, and if you don't feel it, you are off ga-ga land.
Second, because you know you're honest, you don't care what others believe about you? That's a non sequitur. And anyone who says they don't care what others think about them is either deluded or lying.
Now for the self-esteem thing. First, self-esteem itself is but a feeling. It's your emotional response to how you treat yourself. People who force you to knuckle under to abuse beat it down, because they have made you stoop.
So, this guy is saying that if you pump up one feeling enough (your self-esteem) you won't ever be made to feel other (bad) feelings? That's another non sequitur.
That's two gigantic leaps of illogic.
Your self-esteem, among other things, will figure into your emotional response to this false accusation or any other kind of abuse. But the main factors will be whether the accusation is true and who the accuser is.
For example, have you ever incurred the wrath of a tempestuous little child? She stamps her foot at what you're saying and yells, "You're a liar!" You are not going to be bothered by that, are you? In fact, you'll be amused and have to try to hide your amusement so as not to rub it in. Why? Because you don't feel threatened by the accusation of a child.
But if your boss calls you a liar, that's a whole different thing. You are threatened by that, just by virtue of who he or she is. And you can't make his power over you go away by just pumping up your self-esteem.
So, the circumstances and the accuser have much more to do with your feelings than your self-esteem does. If you need fear that this accusation is going to be spread all over town, you are off in ga-ga land if it doesn't evoke a very strong negative emotion in you.
And any sensible, thinking person knows all this, so where is this half-baked doctrine coming from?
What's more, if it is a FALSE accusation, you will be all the more angry. Correction, you will be outraged, because your sense of shame and your sense of justice are being outraged. Yes, your sense of shame, because (contrary to this sloppy thinking) shame isn't guilt: shame is something others put on you. It wounds the innocent far more deeply than the guilty. Indeed, the most damaged are the most innocent.
Note that this preacher of codependency even says that you don't counter the false accusation. You just let your actions do the talking. In other words, you act like the offense didn't happen.
If that isn't aspiring to victimhood, I don't know what is.
I'm a firm believer in the victim rising from the dust as soon as possible and thundering with both fists in the air.
What's so horrible about admitting that other people's treatment of you can make you experience negative feelings as well as positive ones? Is that too scary, or what? Isn't it narcissistic to be in denial of that fact? Why do people need to feel in control of their feelings? And notice how it all comes down to power in the end. Why do people feel the need to be more powerful than their abuser? That too is exactly how the scared-of-his-own-shadow narcissist thinks.
He NEEDS to control others because he is terrified of a world in which he isn't more powerful. He NEEDS to feel in control of his feelings because he is a big baby who can't take them. He too regards feelings as weakness, so he represses them. Deludes himself about them. He too pumps up his self-esteem. Or, he thinks he does. He just pretends he has high self-esteem and represses awareness of his low self-esteem.
I don't think the cure for narcissistic abuse is to become like the narcissist who abused you.
Some feelings are pleasant, and some are unpleasant. Some, like anger and sorrow are emotional pain. Of course we don't like feeling them. At least if we are normal we don't. But does that mean they are intolerable? That they should be feared?
I know that fear is the first thing to go when you "descend into Hell and rise again."
Owned and acknowledged, feelings are not harmful, just painful. And they pass if you don't keep them buried in your subconscious. In fact, those unpleasant emotions are good for you in a way. They MOTIVATE you to do something about the theft or abuse. Without those feelings we'd all be pathetic wimps.
Numb ones betraying ourselves by going around and acting as though it didn't happen.
Note that those who "believe in codependency" always talk as though a person's feelings automate his or her conduct. But this obviously isn't true. At a very early age, we learn to stop being impulsive. That's a character trait of childhood that normal people leave behind. We learn to keep the rational mind in control of our behavior, even when angry. So, what is wrong with these people? Have they failed to learn this? Are they still so childish that their own behavior is driven by their emotions? Listen to them. They talk as though they have no idea that a human being has any self-control. They equate feeling angry with losing your temper and acting out to do something bad.
In the few years I have been learning, training & subsequently coaching abused women I have NEVER EVER seen a co-dependent or co-narcissist involved with an N or P. The only co-dependents I met were with alcoholic and/or drug abusers.
Think about it, if YOU are diagnosed with a "problem" too - your therapist can keep you in therapy working on YOUR problem. cha-ching$$$
But what is harder, and the right thing to do, is to DEPROGRAM you from the mind-control. Restore some of your self-esteem. Let you talk until its ALL out of you and let you have your "a-ha" moment. This takes about 18-24 months give or take depending on the person, IMHO. But I am not a doctor... just a fellow victim who's been there, done that and sold more t-shirts than I can count.
YOU don't have a problem Your only problem was HIM... and then it's getting the toxic sludge he left behind OUT OF YOUR MIND & HEART.
