Cheaters?

[Clark_Kent]

Hey, what does IMHO mean?
I think that you have to be very careful in trying to figure out why the A happens, I think that its very easy to justify the actions of someone you love so that you can keep loving them, but sometimes their actions simply dont deserve to be justified.

In My Humble Opinion

I am not justifying and I am not suggesting anyone do so. I am suggesting you find a way in your heart to accept love back into your life. Anger and bitterness is not going to accomplish that task.

I can see how these things happen, sort of track their evolution, but its is NEVER ok to betray your M, and it is always the person who strays fault, the A, not the lack of a healthy M. There are ways out of an unhappy M that do not involve an A.

I am in no way suggesting that the health of the marriage justifies an affair. Fault? Sure, that helps bust an affair up...fault finding is a great way to bring a spouse back...

Forgive, its the healthier choice and always will be.

There is never an excuse, I dont understand how people can turn things around and justify their A's to themselves by convincing themselves how unhappy they were. If you are unhappy, get out, dont cheat. In fact, maybe an A is a symptom of a not so unhappy M, if it was really that bad they would get out. Mental instability not withstanding of course. But thats just my opinion...

Yes, affairs are a symptom of an unhappy home, but not a hopeless one.

I am not excusing, I am advocating forgiving...Michele speaks a great deal on this subject...

I am not suggesting excusing an affair...they happen and you can be angry about it, or you can be an adult and work past it.

I don't excuse them, certainly if they are multiple in number, but I will forgive someone I too have hurt in our history together...and I reccomend you all do the same...

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Clark,

You appear to be equating "holding the walkaway accountable" with "bitterness." I agree that sometimes that's the case, but it isn't ALWAYS the case.

It's possible to fully hold them accountable, as adults who made a marriage vow (contract), and not hold bitterness in one's heart toward them.

Not EASY, mind you, but certainly doable.

I think the best metaphor I was given was to "shine a light back toward the marriage." I think that's about right. Bitterness ain't much of a light.

Puppy

[AlexEN]

Clark,

You appear to be equating "holding the walkaway accountable" with "bitterness." I agree that sometimes that's the case, but it isn't ALWAYS the case.

It's possible to fully hold them accountable, as adults who made a marriage vow (contract), and not hold bitterness in one's heart toward them...

Puppy

PDT/Clark,

I think it is possible to do both, too...

In my sitch, I hold W accountable for her affair(s) (but take my share of accountability for an R that made her vulnerable to an affair).

But today, I do have bitterness toward her NOT with respect to the affairs, but with respect to how she is handling her end of the "deal" with respect to how we agreed to have the D-Bomb discussion with the kids.

-AlexEN

[Kettricken]

But what would kind of home would your spouse be returning to? A rather bitter and unforgiving one from my readings here...please work on that...it will help others here find motivation rather than just rage.

I haven't lost the plot, I am afraid you haven't read divorce remedy lately..you clearly have lost THAT plot if you are going to rage at and condemn your spouse and leave a mere stranger to defend them...

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

You will never forgive with an attitude like that, sorry but it doesn't work. Anger begets anger...

I am not sugar coating, I KNOW how much PAIN I was in...but I dont' want to feel that way anymore, and I don't want my spouse to feel that way either...

You are angry and I get that, but anger won't bring back a wayward spouse, never has and never will...

First, I apologize for saying you'd lost the plot. That was snarky and unecessary. As for your quote above, well .... giggle.

You're making a great load of assumptions about my situation, none of which are true. I came to this community through the sex-starved marriage board, my marriage is spectacular now, and neither one of us were ever a walkaway. So the anger and bitterness you are perceiving is ... nonexistent.

I completely agree with you that penitent waywards who are willing to be honest and do some hard work deserve heart-deep forgiveness, not rage and bitterness. And I also agree that even in their full-on wayward phase, honey works a lot better than vinegar.

I just don't think it's (a) emotionally honest, or (b) productive in the long run for the LBS to achieve that mindset by downplaying the spouse's role and demonizing the "outsider". For instance, I don't accept your reasoning that the "amateur therapist" dynamic with an affair partner constitutes a position of power for the affair partner that they are abusing. It's just too big of a stretch. It takes two to tango, and the errant spouse had choices; s/he just made the wrong ones. Can't that simply be forgiven, as is where is, without having to drag all this victim/predator abuse-of-power reasoning into it?

The whole thing just doesn't seem fair, on a human level. Justifying the actions of one's own "tribe" and throwing all the blame on the "other tribe" ... that mindset has led to some pretty disgusting human behavior over the centuries. I don't see why it's any more desirable on the micro level than the macro.

I suppose I can understand needing to think that way for awhile to 'get over the hump' of forgiveness, given the level of pain and betrayal involved. But ultimately, to have an *honest* relationship, each spouse must see, accept, and love each other as they *truly* are, dark places and all, otherwise they are just "forgiving and loving" projections, illusions, and rationalizations ... not the real person. That's not intimacy. In my opinion.

[Clark_Kent]

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

My eyes are open, I actually believe more open that people who think the predator and wayward spouse's decision-making faculties are on an equal playing field when a wayward spouse's emotions are in maximum flux. Michele points out over and over again in her books about the emotional pit that wayward spouses get into...how hard it is for them to maintain impulse control at that time...not to listen to a word that is said and only half of what you see them do...THIS kind of mindset is NOT the same level headed thinking the predator is in...at all.

You're making a great load of assumptions about my situation, none of which are true. I came to this community through the sex-starved marriage board, my marriage is spectacular now, and neither one of us were ever a walkaway. So the anger and bitterness you are perceiving is ... nonexistent.

And your frame of reference and experience in infidelity is "non-existent"...its a dangerous thing to give advice about something you haven't been through or at least experienced heavily in some way...so you will have to forgive me if I am hesitant to agree with your position...you just havne't been there from what it sounds like...

I completely agree with you that penitent waywards who are willing to be honest and do some hard work deserve heart-deep forgiveness, not rage and bitterness. And I also agree that even in their full-on wayward phase, honey works a lot better than vinegar.

I dunno...I found being nice didn't help much either..what my readings are pointing to is actually showing your spouse that you will walk out on them if they don't stop.

I just don't think it's (a) emotionally honest, or (b) productive in the long run for the LBS to achieve that mindset by downplaying the spouse's role and demonizing the "outsider". For instance, I don't accept your reasoning that the "amateur therapist" dynamic with an affair partner constitutes a position of power for the affair partner that they are abusing.

It's not downplaying..you can assert that point all you like, but from my EXPERIENCE there is a diffrent level of capability to think evenly and maintain impulse control when your home is falling apart...Michele's advice in DR again makes that abundantly clear. Sorry, but the predatory party is much more clear-headed when the affair begins than the wayward spouse usually is...just read DR and that should be pretty clear...

It's just too big of a stretch. It takes two to tango, and the errant spouse had choices; s/he just made the wrong ones. Can't that simply be forgiven, as is where is, without having to drag all this victim/predator abuse-of-power reasoning into it?

Again you are just asserting here...and "it takes two to tango" is just a catchphrase, not an argument.

The reasoning as you put it comes from a careful investigation of the social dynamics of affairs...something you need to read up on more apparently...I have over half a dozen books on the subject...how many do you have?

If you want to argue then make an argument. Someone with their partner not cooperating with them...someone terrified that their marriage is over, someone miserable and alone...someone with so little hope they will turn to sometimes even strangers and pour out all the intimate details of their marital problems...someone so desperate for a relationship they will betray vows made in front of dozens of friends and family...someone so upset they will put their children's family in a huge love triange...is NOT in the same frame of mind as some creep who offers that person a shoulder to cry on and an ear to listen. You can't be serious...you can't honeslty think they are both level headed rational people equally capable of making healthy decisions at that ponit...SOMEONE is more in control...and it is usually the OP.

The whole thing just doesn't seem fair, on a human level. Justifying the actions of one's own "tribe" and throwing all the blame on the "other tribe" ... that mindset has led to some pretty disgusting human behavior over the centuries. I don't see why it's any more desirable on the micro level than the macro.

First, I never said blame, and not all of it either. But more to the point, I think putting some emotional intelligence into trying to understand the social dyanmics of affairs is the FAIREST thing to do...it leads to forgiveness...sometimes

I suppose I can understand needing to think that way for awhile to 'get over the hump' of forgiveness, given the level of pain and betrayal involved. But ultimately, to have an *honest* relationship, each spouse must see, accept, and love each other as they *truly* are, dark places and all, otherwise they are just "forgiving and loving" projections, illusions, and rationalizations ... not the real person. That's not intimacy. In my opinion.

Again you are just asserting using the word "truly"..you have yet to make any argument that any of what I am suggesting is inaccurate other than that you refuse to accept it...but since you haven't been there from my understanding..I can certainly gt how you can't accept this...and that's ok...

When and if (and I certainly hope you don't) you are there, you will get this a lot easier...but seriously...think about it...in many social exchanges one person is more level headed than the other. This is why we FIND friend's to talk through things with...this is why we have therapists, this is why we have family...to help us think when its a struggle for us to do so...

I have spent my whole life wrestling with emotions and trying to stay the course of good sensible conduct...as many people do. I honelsyt can't imagine an affair taking place where both parties were cool level headed rational beings...the mere likley hood of that scenario happening strikes me as near impossible.

"Not Just Friends" is an excellent book to help get started on understanding these dynamics...I would suggest you give that a read.

[runningoutoftime]

I would think the "victim" and "predatory party" could be interchangable. The so-called predator could be just as easily manipulated by the so-called victim.