Cheaters?

[AlexEN]

Puppy, Sandi...

You are both exactly right on this point; to me it's part-and-parcel of the "passive voice" approach... By saying things just happened or that they were "mistakes", the WAS can absolve themselves of any wrongdoing and don't need to look to others to validate as such a search would lead them to places they might not really want to go...

-AlexEN

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yep; absolutely.

[Clark_Kent]

ok, let me try to put this another way.

1. I am not absolving WS of accountability.
2. I am not suggesting this is a gender point either, both genders would be handled the same way.

What I am saying is

1. I view this similar to a drug addict and the drug dealer. Many people on this forum who were in affairs have often compared affairs to drug addiction. I believe even you puppy have acknowledged an addiction is in play here...one difficult to fight off.

2. The main person I hold accountable is the drug DEALER, not the addict. Both legally are punishable by law, drug use and the sale thereof. The drug SALE is treated far more harshly. Why? Because the addict is being exploited as much as they are making a choice.

If you hold that affairs are an addiction and the WS is really hooked, then why not show some understanding to that and put a harsher stare at the creep selling the destructive fantasy?

Most of the time WS have affairs because their emotions are in flux...they are vulnerable.

Adults? yes, to the SAME DEGREE as the drug dealer? No.

I actually saw a website once where there was some creep with a SCOREBOARD up on his home page of how many marriages he has ruined. He keeps TRACK and follows their demise...he treats it like a sport.

Puppy you said yourself in another forum that this "friend" of a poster's wife here on this forum...who is separated from his wife...during separation wasn't just a threat, but that he was a "predator". It wasn't too long ago, remember that one? Woudld you hold this guy's wife EQUALLY accuountable as the predator?

I am arguing that these marital predators should be held under far less sympathetic scruitiny.

Better question. What if the couple reconciles? One can hardly charge criminal action against one's spouse during reconcilliation.

Sorry guys I just don't buy this idea that both people in an affair are always on the same level. From my reading and experience there is always one person more in control than the other...in control of the situation...one person pushing for more while the other is more apprehensive.

There seems to be consistently be one "culprit" in many cases.

Adults? Yes, but I offer the WS some sympathy, just like Michele Davis does...if they are so HORRIBLE then why fight for them? If these spouses are so CHILDISH then why pursue a reconcilliation?

Most people here do understand the complexity here. I have read it hundreds of times, they read or spy on their spouse and learn how creepy and manipulative the predatory party is.

Sorry guys, but in these complex affairs I don't view the two as equals.

Lets have a look at a fist fight even...sometimes there's one person more aggressive, more provocative, etc.

You guys need to lighten up on your spouses a bit or you wont' ever get them back.

I even once met someone who WANTED to come on this forum as a WS who was cheating and WANTED to END it...but she could'nt ...why?

Because she read the visceral language used against spouses here and felt like a witch in salemn massachusetts.

Please guys, lighten up a bit and try to understand how sometimes these predators just trash your marriage and exploit your spouse (both genders do it), often they KNOW they are doing it...while your wayward spouse is caught up in some addictive fantasy spun by these monsters.

Open your imagination and your heart a bit please...you want your spouse BACK don't you?

Someone once told me write on this forum as if you are writing to your spouse directly...I think that's something we need to practice more here.

[smith18]

Clark Kent -

For only 4 posts, I am impressed. Something tells me that you are not who we think you are. Could the whole Clark Kent identity be a disguise for a DB superhero?

I actually saw a website once where there was some creep with a SCOREBOARD up on his home page of how many marriages he has ruined.

Some guys just deserve a good a$$ kicking!


According to my XW, the OM had tried to convince her to return to our marriage. I dont know what to believe that comes out of her mouth now. If I saw the wife stealer drowning, would I through him a line. Hard to say. It all depends on what my biorythms were that day.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Puppy you said yourself in another forum that this "friend" of a poster's wife here on this forum...who is separated from his wife...during separation wasn't just a threat, but that he was a "predator". It wasn't too long ago, remember that one? Woudld you hold this guy's wife EQUALLY accuountable as the predator?

Yes.

[Kettricken]

Puppy: Bravo, Amen, and Goodnight.

Clark, with respect, you've lost the plot.

Yes, I have no doubt there are deliberate predators out there. Shame on them, and heaven be their judge. But there are, I daresay, many more people who are simply screwed up, sad, weak, deluded, and lost ..... just like the Walkaways whose spouses post here. Yes, the chemicals of infatuation are powerful persuaders, but that works both ways.

If you have to infantilize your spouse to forgive them, if you have to spin it in your head that they must have been the victim of a predator to speak and act as they did .... then I feel sorry for you and your spouse. Because even if you reconcile, your marriage is built on sand and illusion.

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

[bluerain]

Hey, what does IMHO mean?

I think that you have to be very careful in trying to figure out why the A happens, I think that its very easy to justify the actions of someone you love so that you can keep loving them, but sometimes their actions simply dont deserve to be justified.

I can see how these things happen, sort of track their evolution, but its is NEVER ok to betray your M, and it is always the person who strays fault, the A, not the lack of a healthy M. There are ways out of an unhappy M that do not involve an A.

There is never an excuse, I dont understand how people can turn things around and justify their A's to themselves by convincing themselves how unhappy they were. If you are unhappy, get out, dont cheat. In fact, maybe an A is a symptom of a not so unhappy M, if it was really that bad they would get out. Mental instability not withstanding of course. But thats just my opinion...

[Kettricken]

Also, I was thinking re: the whole "mistake" thing ....

... it really depends on the motivation of the person using the word. "I made a mistake" could mean, "whoopsie, didn't mean it, I want a mulligan, stop blaming me and let's move on." Sure.

But it could also be a word that means, "I made a serious error in judgement, I must have been out of my mind, but I want you to know that I didn't act out of malice to hurt you deliberately."

Context and actions reveal which meaning is intended.

[Clark_Kent]

Clark Kent -

For only 4 posts, I am impressed. Something tells me that you are not who we think you are. Could the whole Clark Kent identity be a disguise for a DB superhero?

I have made more than four posts, I have used several different accounts in my history here. I have been following this forum for years.

Some guys just deserve a good a$$ kicking!

Ass kicking or hard time?

According to my XW, the OM had tried to convince her to return to our marriage. I dont know what to believe that comes out of her mouth now. If I saw the wife stealer drowning, would I through him a line. Hard to say. It all depends on what my biorythms were that day.

I also think when the emotional affair starts, some men and women are honeslty just trying to be a shoulder to cry on. But as often happens things shift into dangerous territory...

I think your xw is referencing something the OM tried to do VERY EARLY ON in their history together. Certainly the OM was not taking that approach while they were having sex.

Your xw may be saying something that is true, but NOT mentioning WHEN...so she's not being fully honest.

It is true that some violating parties DO TRY to help the marriage EARLY ON before the flirting and the sex begins...

The problem is they have no business discussing the intimate details of someone else's marriage or offering counsel - they are not licensed, educated, or experienced enough to handle that kind of task. Most importantly, they do not have the safe guards in place that a professional family therapist will. It is all too easy for "a friend to talk to" to become "someone to fantasize about..."

yes, I believe your wife in part, he may have tried to help at first, but at some point he chose to become a much bigger problem and cast aside any willingness to be part of a solution.

This is often how violating parties make their way in..they offer themselves as informal therapists and counsel. But the talk gets intimate...

I again will point out, the violating party is in authority, similar to a teacher to a student, a doctor to a patient, or a parent to a child.

I am not absolving anyone...I am merely exploring the power structures that take place in sexual affairs.

Men and women are vulnerable when their marriages are falling apart, and if no one is going to protect them damage is often the result.

Should we just ignore what our spouses have done?

No. I wouldn't ignore that anymore than ignoring a drunk driver who cause similar damage to a family.

Obviously, most people on this forum want their spouse BACK...so we have a dilemna...

But in regards to the violating party? They are the bartender who allowed someone to drive home when they could barely stand up...for them i have no sympathy...

Is your spouse accountable? Of course...

Is your spouse bound to their commitments? Of course...

But if you want your spouse BACK, you need to find a way to open yourself up to them when they chose to come back...

When I see all this bitterness I see a wayward spouse mirrored in the eyes of their abandoned partner.

If you let their affair turn you bitter and unforgiving, cold and heartless, angry and childish -- you become THEM.

The core idea of divorce busting is to NOT stoop to your partner's level.

I am wondering how many of you would fall prey to someone of the opposite sex offering you a shoulder to cry on...?

Be careful everyone...

I am not at all advocating affairs or inviting wayward spouses to sweep their actions under a rug. But I am advocating a willingness to accept them back should they chose to come back. You can't be bitter until they do...bitterness is not going to bring them back...nor will mercy...

The most effective approach to dealing with an affair from my experience is to take AWAY your spouse' safety net so they can no longer exploit you. Everyone here has the power to end their spouses affair whenever they want, they just have to LEAVE.

Once you leave the affair is over. You may not get your spouse back, but you are guaranteed your dignity...and it may get your spouse back as well...

Leave and tell your spouse you are willing to accept them back once they end their affair. Or lock your spouse out of your home, either way, take away the safety net, but don't get BITTER.

That's what I did, and it worked. I was always loving, but I refused to allow them to rob me of my dignity.

Take the safety net away, but control your impulse to rage...it is not helping you. I see a lot of rage on this forum...it worries me...

[Clark_Kent]

Clark, with respect, you've lost the plot.

I have lost nothing...

Yes, I have no doubt there are deliberate predators out there. Shame on them, and heaven be their judge. But there are, I daresay, many more people who are simply screwed up, sad, weak, deluded, and lost ..... just like the Walkaways whose spouses post here. Yes, the chemicals of infatuation are powerful persuaders, but that works both ways.

Hmmmm...yes, with a double affair you have two participants who are both predator and prey...a dangerous combination...

Re chemicals of infatuation...the research shows the addiction is on the side of the wayward spouse, not the violating party (in cases of single affairs)

The violating party has a very different set of motivators than the wayward party. Based on the research I have found so far, which is extensive, the addiction is placed hard in the hand of the wayward spouse...

So no, studies have shown it does not go both ways...
[/quote]

If you have to infantilize your spouse to forgive them, if you have to spin it in your head that they must have been the victim of a predator to speak and act as they did .... then I feel sorry for you and your spouse. Because even if you reconcile, your marriage is built on sand and illusion.

No one is infantalizing anyone. I am suggesting we employ understanding. People have times in their lives when their moods are heavily in flux...during the heat of my partner's affair I made mistake after mistake at work...i should have been fired...and was...

My manager knew of my challenges at home, so I was not let go. My manager was employing something you sorely need if you want to understand love anytime again...compassion.

My manager knew MY MOODS where in flux, that MY JUDGEMENT was imparied, that I couldn't THINK straight...so he let my mistakes go...and i worked to correct them.

How is THAT any different than what we should be offering spouses? Can't I offer my spouse the same thing my manager offers me in my workplace?

Seriously...no one is suggesting that you treat your spouse like a child, they are doing a good enough job of that on their own. But I will treat them like a person who has a life, has choices, and has sour moods in flux that will impair good judgement. Couple that with a dangerous voice whispering over your shoulder and I can't help but sympathise for wayward spouses who are remorseful and chose to consider returning.

But what would kind of home would your spouse be returning to? A rather bitter and unforgiving one from my readings here...please work on that...it will help others here find motivation rather than just rage.

I haven't lost the plot, I am afraid you haven't read divorce remedy lately..you clearly have lost THAT plot if you are going to rage at and condemn your spouse and leave a mere stranger to defend them...

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

You will never forgive with an attitude like that, sorry but it doesn't work. Anger begets anger...

I am not sugar coating, I KNOW how much PAIN I was in...but I dont' want to feel that way anymore, and I don't want my spouse to feel that way either...

You are angry and I get that, but anger won't bring back a wayward spouse, never has and never will...