True Love or True Fog? Changing Forums

[Silver Fox]

Thanks Brokenhearted and Pearl,

No B, what you said was not too harsh and I appreciate your encouragement. I was indeed completely dark all last fall and most of the winter. Then I changed to the MLC forum and was advised that one should never go all dark on an MLC man. Someone even suggested I leave his favorite snack by the aquarium when he came over to fill it. Really? Boy was I ever confused then!

But then we had mediation in March and things started picking up. I was finally strong enough to talk with him without emotion and I felt the "shift". I began working in earnest on my terms for the big D, much to H's chagrin. It's not exactly what he expected. Oh well.

AND NOW THIS: Last Sunday morning at 6 a.m. H calls me:

H - I'm on my way to the hospital. I think I have appendicitis.
M - Are you driving?
H - Yes
Me - By yourself?
H - I'm driving my truck.
Me - Why are you driving BY YOURSELF???
H - It's a long story. (nice move OW)

So, we call back and forth all day. I called his mom and sister. He finally has surgery that night. All went well. He calls me when he first wakes up - very groggy and apparently very alone. I never did find out why he drove himself to the hospital.

But there's more to the story still. I sent an email Saturday night - a little sterner this time. Explaining why I felt I had to ask for his retirement fund and that I didn't appreciate him threatening me with bankrkuptcy. Because he was sick all that night he didn't see this email until he returned from the hospital Monday night.

Tuesday morning he calls in an absolute crying, raging, apparently about to hit rock bottom state. He's in pain of course from the appendectomy which adds to the drama of the call:

"I can't take this anymore. I don't have job, I've lost my health insurance. I can't pay for this surgery. I can't keep imposing myself here (meaning living with OW). I'm getting it from all sides (not sure what this meant). I've tried to be nice (so his niceness has been fake?) and now you want all my retirement which will leave me penniless!!!

I guess I did the right thing just letting him rant. I didn't argue with him. I told him I could not have a conversation with him in the state he was in and he needed to go back to bed and focus on healing first. I repeated this several times.
His crying was very unsettling to hear. Eventually he just hung up. I can't even remember what was said at the end.

For better or for worse (ha) I sent an email that night.
"All issues aside - please let me know how you're doing. I'm worried about you".

No response. Complete darkness from him now. So I sit and wait and pray that the OW has enough sense to take care of him at least as well as she takes care of her cats. I will not call or email again.

[Silver Fox]

The bill for H's surgery came today. Boy, that was fast. $2,300 - and that's just for the doctors - another will arrive shortly for the hospital room, etc. H's health insurance ended May 31 - nice timing H.

Still no contact from him. His birthday is next Sunday. Not sure what to do about this one. Last year I sent him a text - "Happy Birthday - I miss you - first time in 22 years".

He sent a reply - "thanks for the text but wish you hadn't tried to make me feel guilty". Duly noted. This was before I had a full grasp of DB principals.

This year I'll probably ignore it? Not sure yet.

[Silver Fox]

A very busy day for me with all kinds of GALing. So OF COURSE, H calls today and leaves a message - "I'm coming to town to finish packing up my office. I'll be on the road for a few more hours. I'd like to talk with you to see where we're at, call me".

Where we're at?? Quite a change from his last hysterical call. What about an email response to my last email? What about calling me, oh I don't know, IN ADVANCE, so we could have possibly made plans for today?

I didn't change my day and I didn't return the call. He never called back.

So I'm stuck with having to return his call now? - he won't answer anyway at OW's. Or, send an email - Sorry to have missed you. Busy day. How about letting me know a day ahead next time so we can plan a meeting.

Something like that?

[AliSuddenly]

Silver...your thread is like Sliding Doors ! (you seen that film?) Every single time he throws you an olive branch, you ignore it, you're too busy. I dont get it, why do you do that? Why are you too busy to have returned his call?

You seem very involved with work, from your posts and I am curious, was that an issue in your M at all? Did H feel that you made work your priority and he had to fit in around? YOu work for a school right, so I guess thats a very structured timetable year on year that you have to be committed to, but even so, you said...

"I didn't change my day and I didn't return the call. He never called back."

This just seems counterproductive to me. Ok, dont pursue, absolutely, but dont ignore his contact either.. if my bf ever contacted me, text, email, phone, I ALWAYS responded. I was consistently 'there', which is some advice I got in the early days about men in MLC.. they need reassurance and consistency, they are in a dark place. Its not hte same as the man that appears to be doing ok whilst he runs off with his secretary.. I believe going dark in those sitches lets them feel the full force of their decision (annoying young secretary v loving wife I walked out on).

I wouldnt write to him in an email "How about letting me know a day ahead next time so we can plan a meeting".. that sounds a little like a critiscism and also, will highlight his shame at being so cr*p and NOT being capable of calling you in advance or being normal in anyway. His life is chaotic and so is his behaviour, perhaps you should accept that.

I would return his call, being light and upbeat and vague about why you didnt reply, but acknowledge his call and thank him for ringing. Its a big deal that he continues to contact you, so I do wish you wouldnt keep rebuffing it!

Or, if you want to email, how about "Thanks for your call, it would have been good to chat with you, so sorry I wasnt able to reply on *day*. Speak to you soon, *Name*"

I'm reading along and hoping that you two get to talk soon. It doesnt surprise me that his insurance ran out and THEN he got appendicitis.. I thkn the universe is trying to tell him something and he is certainly being served some hard lessons.

The most interesting thing though was when he said "I can't keep imposing myself here (meaning living with OW"... wow.. sounds like the rosey glow has worn off that one then, or their R. It sounds what it is.. he feels, or she has made him feel, like he is "imposing", which isnt love, or a mutual living together arrangement.

I thnk you should ackowledge his bd, in a jokey, light, upbeat way and yes, dont make him feel guilty. Could you send him a funny e-card? Or email him a link to something, a story or video clip he might find amusing? Dont wish him "happy birthday" as that seems a bit trite considering the circumstances. How about, just .. "Saw this and thought you'd like it, on your birthday".. just acknowledge it.

Al xxx

[Flicka]

Oh, Silver Fox, You are so sure footed. Please do not doubt yourself.

Keep condo shopping!! I thought you had one in mind...

I think you should notice your H's birthday. I 'noticed' mine! What I did was load up on a lot of cat toys! I sent them off with and a cute cat card!! {There are so many!!!} I enclosed a Bob Dylan CD. I am not certain that would be alright for you, but use your good sense of humor to jack with him.

I would LOVE a younger man, but your experience makes me careful. I will search out an older guy next time! I will cherish him! And the one after him!! Do you feel discordant with the age difference? Did it matter early?

Your H has missed out. I bet he regrets it all very soon! I am supposing you don't. There is a point where we stop imagining it will be okay, if only. I am sorry for his appendicitis. His timing was horrific. Throw him some cat snacks.

And so it goes.

[Silver Fox]

Hi Ali,

I was getting ready to send out an S.O.S. for some support here! Thanks so much for not giving up on me. Your advice always makes me go a little deeper. Although I still have a very difficult time with the "tough love" vs. "validate and be nice" approach.

Let me address a few of your points:

You seem very involved with work, from your posts and I am curious, was that an issue in your M at all? Did H feel that you made work your priority and he had to fit in around?

Yes, I'm a teacher and very dedicated during the school year. No, it was never an issue - H is a teacher too, which was wonderful - we had plenty of time off together including Xmas break and summers. As a matter of fact, H has told me several times that OW is a workaholic and that is an "issue" for them. Interesting.

"I didn't change my day and I didn't return the call. He never called back."

I know this sounded cold, but, I had a whole day spa girl thing planned! We are told over and over on this board to do what YOU want, get him off your mind, GAL, etc. I sent him a very caring email last week which he did not respond to. So I pick up the phone while I'm having a pedi to hear him ask about the D? Damn!

if my bf ever contacted me, text, email, phone, I ALWAYS responded. I was consistently 'there', which is some advice I got in the early days about men in MLC.. they need reassurance and consistency, they are in a dark place.

Well Ali, with all due respect, was your bf calling to ask you if you'd talked to your L? What are we going to do about the terms? I can't give you all of my retirement? Can't you live in the house one more year til the economy rebounds? Should we just go to court and let the judge decide? Etc., etc.

Yes, he's in a very, very dark place and I do feel for him. I just want to grab him, hug him, tell him to stop this insanity. Lose the OW and let's work our a$$es off to repair the house and our M together. But this is a big pursuing no, no.

I wouldnt write to him in an email "How about letting me know a day ahead next time so we can plan a meeting".. that sounds a little like a critiscism and also, will highlight his shame at being so cr*p and NOT being capable of calling you in advance or being normal in anyway. His life is chaotic and so is his behaviour, perhaps you should accept that.

I must have picked up on your vibes about this one. I did send an email last night but decided to leave out the "call ahead please". I simply said - "Sorry to have missed your call. I had a busy day planned. Hope you're recovering. Will speak with you soon".

It doesnt surprise me that his insurance ran out and THEN he got appendicitis.. I thkn the universe is trying to tell him something and he is certainly being served some hard lessons.

Yes, the universe and karma are quite a team aren't they! He's getting some hard lessons but I don't think he's put 2 and 2 together yet.

The most interesting thing though was when he said "I can't keep imposing myself here (meaning living with OW"... wow.. sounds like the rosey glow has worn off that one then, or their R. It sounds what it is.. he feels, or she has made him feel, like he is "imposing", which isnt love, or a mutual living together arrangement.

I'm glad you picked up on this one. I found it an astounding admission. He probably doesn't even remember saying it though. But yes, there must be trouble in paradise. Afterall, they're in luuuuuv, they're boyfriend and girlfriend. Why would it be an IMPOSITION to live with your soul mate?

Thanks again Ali for reading. I'll also keep your b'day suggestion in mind. Right now I'm very tempted to not do a thing. I was nicey nice/pursuing the last 2 years and look where it got me!

[Silver Fox]

Flicka!

Great to hear from you. No, I'm not sure footed at all. See above!

No use to condo shop yet if H refuses to give up the fund because it will make him "penniless"

Age was never an issue. I'm a very youngish person. If it weren't for my grey, um, I mean silver hair, I could pass for maybe 35ish to 40ish?

My H on the other hand is aging rapidly. Every time I see him, which isn't often - HIS hair is speckled more and more. He's turning into the very thing he was trying to avoid.

Wait, I have it, I think I'll send him some balls for his birthday since he's given his to the Catbitch

[dl443322]

Ok, I just read what you were going to give your h for his bday and I spit water all over my keyboard laughing.

Listen, I know that it is hard because everyone gives different advice. Believe me, I sometimes dont know which to follow. So, I always go with my gut. I do what feels right to me.

According to the db book, you should try something, monitor it and if it isnt working, try something else. So, it isnt one size fits all. You try it for a reasonable amount of time, and then analyze.

If going dark didnt give you whatever desired results you were looking for, dont do it.

I went dark for me. It was not healthy for me to have contact with him right now, so I dont. But it is different for everyone. What works for one person, might not work for another.

The main thing is this - dbing is really for you. It's a chance to see the things about you that you want to change, to find out what makes you happy, and to become the person you were meant to be. And sometimes it leads to saving your marriage.

This is hard stuff, really hard. All you could do is continue to move forward and follow your instincts. You are doing great!

[No Longer BH]

Ok, I HAVE to chime in here....I have been through the emotional ringer and have come out the other side very intact. For so long I did everything and anything to "win" back my H. I have recently re-read ALL of my post and can see exactly where I went wrong. SF, you feel like you are getting conflicting advice, well you are.....but I am here to tell you what is best for YOU, not your H, not your M. Because without a WHOLE you there is no possibility for a R anyway. It took me soooooo long to understand this.

When I was on my journey I was told time and time again, "Act like the OW, if you are mysterious and fill up their love buckets they will come back to you." Sheesh,to think I actually paid for this advice. I am not trying to sound cynical here, but boy did this reasoning tear apart my self-esteem. What I really needed to do was detach and let go. I needed to focus on me and not "us". I needed to just let him be in his screwedup world to face the consequinces of his actions. Here is the thing.....as long as OW is in the picture (even just a littel teeny tiny bit) there is NO HOPE for a R......did you hear me...NO HOPE for a R. He has to be away from her before he can defog and get his head on straight to even think about R. Why waist your time and effort on something that is not going to be noticed? I am going to post a few things that I learned to your thread.....I took me almost a year to believe this stuff, but it is true..........

[No Longer BH]

LESSON ONE:

This is from the Marriagebuilders website that talks about Romantic Affairs (the kind my H is in). I think it describes them very well and how to handle it with our WAS. Paln A is only suppose to last for a couple of months....find ways that meet your WAS needs. It is stated over and over and over again that this RARELY ever stops the affair. Plan B is to go no contact:

For the benefit of some of the recent visitors, here is some information I've gathered about "romantic" affairs, the first version of which appeared here some months ago.

You find yourself in a horrible situation. It’s something you never thought would happen to you or your marriage. Your spouse has been cheating on you and lying to you. You finally uncovered it, and the knowledge is ripping you apart inside. And if that isn’t bad enough, your discovery of your spouse’s affair isn’t the end of it; he/she won’t stop seeing their affair partner (known on this site as the OP, other person; OM, other man; or OW, other woman).

Most experts in marriage counseling agree that there are several different types of affairs, but this post will deal with the “romantic” type. In this type of affair, the wandering or wayward spouse (WS) has crossed a boundary and “fallen in love” with an affair partner (OP, other person). What makes this affair so difficult to deal with is that it is emotionally driven. The “in love” state is often so powerful that the WS may be willing to sacrifice the marriage and just about everything else to pursue it.

Some characteristics of a romantic affair are:

a. The WS refuses to end it.
b. The WS most often refuses to seek counseling either individually or as a couple.
c. The WS has little or no concern for the effect this has on his/her family.
d. The WS believes they have found his/her soulmate.
e. The WS re-writes your marital history in a way that tries to justify the affair.
f. The WS is quite prepared to make sacrifices to maintain the affair that no rational person would consider. These may include divorce, loss of friendships, estrangement of relatives, and/or ruining his/her financial well-being.

Think of the classic situation of a teenage love affair where one teen has been told that the person they are dating and in love with is using him or her or is demonstrably bad for them. Have you ever seen such a teen take anyone’s advice and stop seeing this lover? It’s rare, because one’s emotions corrupt any attempt at clear thinking. This is what happens in romantic affairs. It is a powerful fantasy relationship in which the partners may idealize each other and bond in a way that makes everything else in their lives seem insignificant by comparison. If your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair and agrees to break it off, you are extremely lucky.

There are several very good books which can help you deal with your situation. Among the best are Dr. Frank Pittman’s Private Lies; Dr. Shirley Glass’ Not Just Friends; Dr. James Dobson’s Love Must Be Tough : New Hope for Families in Crisis, and all the books by Dr. Willard Harley.

From the point of view of a betrayed spouse (BS), one’s spouse having an affair appears to be a rejection of you in favor of someone else. This can be a devastating blow to your self-esteem. You hear things like the classic “I love you, but I’m not in love with you,” and other statements along similar lines. You are shocked that this person who pledged to love you through thick and thin or until “death do us part” has suddenly forgotten that commitment or decided to revoke it without advance notice. (Chances are your spouse never talked about a marital crisis or separation or divorce before the affair.) They don’t want to work on the marriage, and you don’t understand why. They latch onto any events in your past in which you had a disagreement with them, no matter how rare or insignificant they seem, as evidence of your incompatibility. They won’t go to counseling, or if they do, they sabotage the counselor’s efforts and then tell you “I told you it wouldn’t work!” They won’t stop the affair, even though you can point out a dozen practical reasons for stopping it and fixing the marriage. They are not concerned about the children, after all, “they’ll adapt.” Your joint personal finances are jeopardized because the pursuit of love is more important than worrying about money or mortgages or credit card bills. Your wandering spouse’s family and friends may turn against you too. You don’t know what they’ve been told, but it’s a safe bet that they’ve been given a laundry list of grievances against you, while carefully leaving out the details of how they lied, cheated, and deceived you to pursue their affair. Of course, all those things were justified because you weren’t a good spouse, and this new person in their life is their true soulmate.

You’re angry, upset, and depressed. You fluctuate between these emotions while trying to make sense of it all. But you can’t make sense of it because infidelity is not a sensible act. In fact, much of what your spouse does seems self-destructive; that is because it is self-destructive, and if you are not careful your spouse will destroy you, too.

What can you do when you discover that your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair? Well, according to Pittman:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

Glass offers no solution to the WS who refuses to stop the affair.

Dr. Harley offers a plan for dealing with a spouse who is unwilling to stop the affair (see Plan A and Plan B on the MB website). But even Dr. Harley acknowledges that affairs of this nature are extremely difficult to break. They are often characterized as addictions, because they share many of the self-destructive traits that are visible among alcoholics and drug addicts. Most affairs will have to “burn out,” that is, they run their course until the romance fades and reality intrudes to destroy the fantasy. Unfortunately, this very often doesn’t happen until a lengthy separation between husband and wife occurs, or in some cases, after a divorce.

Here are some things to consider:

1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what the state of the marriage prior to the affair, no one forces the WS to have the affair, and having the affair is clearly not a solution to marital problems. It’s very important that you avoid beating yourself up over this situation, not only for your own well-being but also because your frame of mind can help or hinder your chances of recovering your marriage.

2. It is a myth that affairs don’t occur in good marriages. People in good marriages DO have affairs. Dr. Pittman says the following:

"Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones."

Or Dr. Shirley Glass:

"When people marry, they bring almost mythic assumptions to the union, including these: If we love each other, you will not cheat on me; if we have a good marriage, we will be safe from infidelity. The truth is that not every person who is unfaithful is unhappily married."

You probably know someone who loves their wife or husband and claims to have a good marriage, but still can’t turn down an opportunity for a sexual encounter with someone else. This is especially true of philandering men. There are other reasons why people engage in affairs that have nothing to do with the marriage itself; self-esteem issues, depression, sexual addictions, midlife crises, etc.

3. Don’t take the affair personally. This is not a rejection of you; this is simply a bad choice by your partner who most likely tried to hide the affair from you because they didn’t want to lose you.

4. The OP is not necessarily more attractive or sexier than the betrayed spouse (BS). Most of the time the affair partner is no better in bed than the BS, it’s just that the intense emotional involvement makes it seem so, especially for women. Ironically, the OP is often chosen more for his/her incompatibility with the WS than for any similarities; the greater the differences, the more intense the relationship. Remember, this isn’t about physical attractiveness or sexual prowess, it’s about brain chemistry – the same brain chemistry that fuels addictions to things like drugs, porn, and alcohol.

5. Not all affairs result in divorce. Most statistics indicate that, of couples who seek counseling for having marital problems due to an affair, between 80 and 85% reconcile. These statistics refer to all types of affairs; there is good reason to believe that reconciliation in romantic affairs occurs at a much lower success rate. Pittman found that only about half of his patients whose marriages were damaged by a romantic-type affair were saved. In Pittman’s experience most of the couples who divorced after an affair did so because of the steadfast refusal of the WS to stop the affair.

6. Nearly all affairs end, usually within two years or less. Even when the affairees marry each other, only 25% of them are still together after 5 years. Pittman found that five years after the revelation of an affair, most WSs were back with their marriage partner.

7. In romantic affairs, it is usually a waste of time to try to talk the WS into stopping the affair, working on the marriage, or getting counseling, but it won’t hurt to try once or twice when you first uncover the affair. Don’t expect the WS to be sensible or practical.

8. Although it goes against Dr. Harley’s advice, it may be a bad idea to assume responsibility for marital problems at the time of discovery of a romantic affair. That’s because the WS is looking for justification for the affair and by assuming responsibility for any marital problems, real or imagined, you are inadvertently giving your spouse an excuse for his/her actions. No attempt to solve marital problems will work while the affair continues. Stop the affair first, then talk about marital problems and their solution.

9. Don’t beg for a second chance or promise to change in an attempt to persuade your WS to stop the affair or prevent separation or divorce. This doesn’t work. Don’t allow what love your WS has for you to be turned into pity. Keep a bold front, even if it is only a façade and you are crumbling inside.

10. It is the WS who most often files for divorce. Interestingly, Dr. Pittman says there is almost always a point when the WS makes an attempt to return to the BS, even after the divorce occurs, (although you may not recognize the attempt for what it is, and it may come as a result of the WS’s desire to assure themselves of your continued love).

11. Don’t be surprised if your WS claims all sorts of marital problems that you had no idea existed. The creation and/or gross exaggeration of marital problems is part of the process of transferring guilt of the affair to you or the marriage. It is an attempt by the WS to rationalize what cannot be excused. Does the WS believe what he/she says about the marriage? The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it; WSs often believe their own lies and some never come to grips with the truth.

12. If your WS has had multiple romantic affairs, it may be that they are in love with the idea of being in love. These people are very often not suitable for marriage and will bounce from relationship to relationship until their dying day. You may want to bail out of this marriage or be prepared to spend a lot of money on a psychiatrist.

13. Although you may be desirous of saving your marriage, it is best to prepare for the worst. Seek legal advice about your possible divorce and custody issues. Do whatever is necessary to prevent the WS from destroying your financial resources along with your marriage.

For those of you looking for quick and easy solutions, there are none. Dr. Harley recommends exposure (telling any friends, family, or co-workers who might be able to influence the WS to stop the affair) as a method of accelerating the demise of an affair, but generally speaking, there are three possible outcomes even if you follow Dr. Harley’s Plan A/B:

A. The affair continues, a divorce ensues, and the affairees live together happily ever after. (This is very rare.)

B. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, but either the WS or BS or both refuse to reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be directly proportional to the length of the affair.)

C. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, the WS and BS reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be inversely proportional to the length of the affair.)

I hope this helps some of you who arrive daily on this forum. There are a lot of good folks here offering fine advice coming from first-hand experience.

Remember that you are not alone.


Tomorrow will be the next one.