I know it makes for a long post but I feel that I need to respond to separate things that have been said in order to make sure it is covered. Hope you don't mind.
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... xh said once. "I am leaving, you can go with me if you want to". We had been dealing with son with the same issues, no job, computer all the time and disrespecting me. Xh said he couldnt take it anymore but I could always talk to xh and settle him down a bit. This went on and on and I think "among" other stuff that happened, pushed my xh over the edge.
Wow.....that's just sad. But I still think it was your H's way of bailing out of a bad situation instead of maning up and taking hold of the stitch the way he needed to do. People can't just turn their backs and leave when life gets hard. Of course, that's what "he" has done, but it will catch up with him. There will be a payday someday.
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Sandi, I do lay down the law to him, but I will be honest with you. I dont know if I can just put him out. I am sorry, I know I need to, but he has no where to go.
Okay. But what do you do when you lay down the law and he still does not abide by that law? You see, if he has no consequenses to suffer--by not respecting your rules, then what does it matter to him? That is the law of the land. You either obey the laws or you suffer the consequenses. What will he do if he chooses to go out and rob a bank? Will he think he'll get off b/c somebody will bail him out? It will be the same case as T2SP's parents with the 30 year old. Listen, I have seen it happen with my own in-laws. It was horrible and guess where that 38 year old "kid" of theirs is now? In the pen. If they are not made to respect rules and laws and people in authority (parents, teachers, judges, etc.) then they are in for a bad time of it. Perhaps you think I'm going over-board in your case, but I've seen it happen too many times where parents would cater to their kids and bail them out and refuse to make them take responsibility for their actions. It is up to you as to how long you want to live in that environment, but it is not good for your son. Look at that 30 year old who is going to live with his girlfriend and mamma is worried he won't make it. I can promise her he won't make it! But, I think I can also predict that she will continue to bail him out b/c he will go to her and keep going until she is completed deleted of any souce of funds or ways of assisting him and then he'll be through with her and move on to the next sucker. Listen, I helped burry a woman this week who raised three generations of kids b/c hers would not be responsible parents like they should be and would cast their children off on her to raise. They killed her! In fact, the last time I had a conversation with her, I tried to tell her that they were doing that very thing and she said, "But what am I suppose to do?" and I told her that if she died tomorrow, they would find some way to take care of their families. Well, guess what? It looks like they will have to, now! So, it bothers me to see grown children take advantage of their parents, but at the same time......guess where it started and who is to blame for the kids being the way they are?
I see you as being a peacemaker. I see that as being a big part of your personality. I can see you being caught in the middle between your child and your H when the son was growing up. However, things are much different now and we could talk all day about how things were not done correctly in the past and it will not change the way things are today. So, you have to approach your problems with "how to deal today".....not "how should it have been done differently" b/c that is really a waste of time, right?
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I did send him to his dads once and he came back begging me to forgive him.
I'm sure that Dad made it so uncomfortable for the son that he would never want to live with him again. Remember, that was one of the reasons for Dad leaving.......to have "peace", right? So, he's not about to allow his son to have a grand old time at "his" house. That is why he made this statement:
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he would never understand us over here"
You asked what he meant by that, well he meant that son would not be happy in their environment b/c Dad would make sure of that. He "implied" that they were strict over there and you weren't. He has no intentions of son laying around his house all day and staying on the computer instead of working.
You do know that computers are very, very addictive, don't you? People have lost their jobs b/c they couldn't stay off the computer! I think it is so much worse with the younger generation b/c they were born into this era of technology and don't know how to do things the way most of us did when we were growing up. I watch my little GD and she doesn't even play "house" like I did when I was her age. She's got some kind of tech toy playing games! If I told her to go build a "playhouse", she would probably think I meant to build one out of wood...lol.
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It's funny how much he loves his dad and talks to him with respect...even beyond respect now. (Son is so afraid of losing his dad he says "I am sorry dad" every other sentence.), but yet he doesnt like staying with his dad unless its on a trip.
I don't know that it is as much "respect" as it is "fear". You said yourself that he is afraid of losing his dad. Kids fear parents b/c of them being too strict (or abusive) or rejection. Don't you think your son knows how his dad feels about him? If your XH yelled and cussed and carried on in front of son.....then he probably expressed his true feelings without holding back on account of son listening. In fact, I would think that your son is dealing with some "guilt" about his dad leaving. That guilt is not being "displayed" the way it seems it would be......but all the same, if he has any smarts at all, he knows some of the problems that his dad had where he (son) was concerned. Still doesn't justify his disrespect toward you as his mother, but you are the reason behind him being that way and you will have to be the one to change it.....not your XH.
Remee, the sooner you will realize that your X is no longer going to "help" you with son or anything else in your life, the better you will actually become. You will be stronger and your self-esteem will be healthier when you stop depending on X to help. He's made it abundantly clear how he feels toward you and now that you have explained more about X's feelings toward the raising of your son.....I think more than just "you" were involved in his leaving the M and home. I still think he's in MLC but due to his previous inabilities to properly raise his son and his temper and all of it put together.......the thoughts of him ever returning to a M with you doesn't look to promising. I'm sorry. I don't mean to kick you in the gut when I say things so bluntly. I don't know how to tell it like it is without being plain.
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I dont want you to think xh or son "always" talked to me this way. Just sometimes.
I understand. And, like you said that they did not always treat you badly, etc., but I look at it this way Remee, it only takes a little poison to make you die. What do you think killed the M? Poison! As I told you, listening to your posts is like hearing my sister tell her stitch. It breaks my heart to see her spend so many years in the mess she has. She could have prevented it, but she sat back and took what was dished out to her. Now, I don't think there is much hope where her son is concerned, but I certainly "hope" I'm wrong. He is older than your son, but quickly on his way to being like the 30 year old that was described. In fact, he's almost that age now and still lives at home, being disrespectful to his mom, fears his dad, never has a social life apart from his dad, has hardly ever dated, and would not have a job if not for his dad hiring him. It seemed him and his dad had a good R when he was young, also....but that R is quickly souring and dad is talking the same way your X did. He wants out of the mess he help create! You see, they have not "raised" him to be self-suffient. He will not have it easy as an adult. My nephew is frustrated and isn't happy and he isn't sure why. I can tell you why. B/c it's not normal the way he has grown up!
I know you want better for your child. As I said, it is late, but hopefully not completely too late. It will not be at all easy for you to try to turn your son around. You need to think about what to do that would be his consequenses if he does not go to work, if he shows direspect, etc. You have to have him abide by your rules if you allow him to continue to live with you. He is a lucky young man. What would happen to him if (God forbid) you accidently died? He would "have" to find a way without you, then, wouldn't he? Besides, you don't want him to meet a girl and fall love and want to get M and not even be able to support a family! You know yourself how hard it is to be M and raise a family, so he needs to be growing up, getting a job established and mature before getting M.
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Sandi how am I suppose to keep son from calling his dad (while he is still in the home)?
I don't suggest you try to keep him from calling his dad. My point was him calling his dad in the mist of the two of you having an argument and him "tattling" to his dad about you. Also, my point was that you not talk to the dad, as well. That is when your self-discipline would have to come into play. It is your nature to want to talk to XH, so if your son is on the phone....and even if he's talking about you.....turn around and leave the room. Refuse to talk to your X. Yes, it will be hard at first, but you'll learn.
You forgot to say whether your X helps with the bills, etc. I wondered by him telling you to give that phone back to son b/c he (dad) paid for it. If it is a cell phone and your X pays the phone bill, then you don't say anything......just don't fall into that entrapment like before. If your X doesn't pay the "bill" then that is a different story. It's one thing to buy a cell phone and yet quite another to pay the monthly bill.
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BUT now that xh is out of the house he thinks he doesnt have to deal with it. Should he???
There may be differnent opinions about whether he should or should not, but the point is that HE ISN'T!! That is what you have to coop with, is that he isn't taking any responsibility for anything in your life....including his son. I think he looks at his son as already "being raised" and his job is over. What he won't accept is the fact he just run away from it. But, anyway, he's not going to do anything about son, so forget that.
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I tried to talk to his dad because I felt like I had to defent myself.
I know, sweetie, but can you take an older person's advice about that? Don't even try. It won't do any good. You are wasting your breath b/c XH doesn't give a flip one way or the other. (Brutally plain again)
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like he is the MAN of the house.
That idea could have been planted by somebody else, but anyway, you have to be the one to make him think otherwise.
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I meant, how can I give my xh space when son keeps complaining to him about me. Like you said xh is never going to respect me if this keeps happening.
Okay, you can't control what your son does 24/7. He will talk to dad sooner or later and he may complain about you. That is really doesn't have anything to do about you giving XH space. The problem that comes into play is when "you" talk to the XH over the phone. That is not giving him space!! Also, what I meant was when you were trying to "defend" yourself, XH saw it as you being like a child and tattling or complaining to him to make the son behave and respect you. Does that clearify things a little better? I know I don't make myself understood a lot of times. I am going too fast and trying to cover too much ground.
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I left my xh alone and hadnt even seen him in 3 months,
I'm sure that seems life forever to you, but it isn't when two people have gone separate ways and he's not wanting to see or hear from you. Bear that in mind.
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I expect his dad to tell him, "son you leave with your mom so you go by her rules, grow up and stop calling me to complain", this would be good for starters. Unrealistic??? Anything would be better than telling him to get away from me and agreeing with son when xh isnt even here to hear or see whats going on.
So, are you going to turn to XH again?
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How long does this anger last?
Well, for starters, I would look at three years instead of expecting a change in three months. However, he may never change his feelings, Renee. The sad truth is that some people never get over their past. I hope he will, but what garantees do you have? None. So, what will you do with the rest of your life?
If I've taken up all your space, then just start another thread.....
I'll talk to you later, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi I will post more later but for right now I have this to say. I have tried so hard to make peace with my xh concerning everything. It hurts me to no end to see how mad he is with me. The anger bothers me so much for some reason. My main problem right now, as far as xh is concerned, is trying to stop the anger he has toward me. I want us to be civil so badly it kills me inside. Just being honest. I know this is a problem. How can I stop myself from wanting to fix my xh's anger??? How??? I have left him messages before telling him not to worry that I would take care of things on my end and that I was glad he is happy. I have tried everything, even giving him money in the begginning, to ease the hatred. He would catch us being nice to one another and instantly start up the anger again. I have GOT to STOP trying to make peace. What can I do to stop this. It is an internal battle...truthfully an internal battle. I am ok that we are divorced and my xh may never return. I am NOT OK that we will NEVER be civil to each other. Sad isnt it? Sad for me.
Another question Sandi is this: My xh is soooo nervous when he talks to me (past wise). AND people have told me is acts "paranoid" all the time. Why the nervousness and paranoia?
As far as the cell goes. My xh bought the phone for him and pays the bill.
Sandi and the rest. I wanted to add something else. My xh said to me also in a state of anger once, "you made me leave my family"????????? Sandi, I truly think my xh is NOT happy. I think he to is fighting an internal battle. He is fighting the quilt of what he did and throwing it all at me because he truly cant handle it. Until he gets over feeling quilty he will always be angry at me. I dont know if he is happy with this girl or not, but I know he is not happy about what happened to his life and what he did. He wasnt happy here so he left, now he still isnt happy BECAUSE HE HAD TO LEAVE. She, the gf, gets his mind off it every now and then...the bandaide. I am truly understanding this now. WOW...it totally makes sense. The bandaide can only last so long it seems. He wants a family so bad and is mad that he had to leave ours. His anger however he has to fix himself. He has got to come to grips with it. I wish so much I could talk to him and say to him its ok, I forgive you. Not to get him back but just to let him know I understand.
Should I write him a letter or leave him a voice mail letting him know this? Just a question. I will not contact him otherwise. I know everyone says to NOT call him, so I wont unless you think this is a good idea. Sandi, do you think he will ever come to grip with the guilt? Do you think he will ever get over being "mad" at me? Is there any hope ever again for our family?
Sandi out of all that I wrote above. The sum of it is that it saddens me sooooo much to think my xh and I may never speak again. 20 years for it to end like this. This hurts.
I wish so much I could talk to him and say to him its ok, I forgive you. Not to get him back but just to let him know I understand.
Should I write him a letter or leave him a voice mail letting him know this? Just a question. I will not contact him otherwise. I know everyone says to NOT call him, so I wont unless you think this is a good idea. Sandi, do you think he will ever come to grip with the guilt? Do you think he will ever get over being "mad" at me? Is there any hope ever again for our family?
Renee
Renee,
You know the answer to this already. It starts with N and ends in O.
You will make him angry or at the very least upset with you.
You know this already.
Nobody here has the answers to those questions. It's something you have to accept. To keep asking is to keep traveling down that dead end road.
Write a letter to him. Put in it all your feelings (good and bad). Let him know how you feel about him and the way he treats you. Open your heart and just let the words flow freely onto the paper. When you are done, throw it away.
Do NOT give it to him. You will be surprised at at how you will feel afterward. You get to let your feelings out without doing any damage. I used to do it. It made me feel so much better.
Try it, it can't hurt anything. Just make sure you throw it away so no one sees it.
Put it in your mind that you are never going to speak with XH again except for special occasions like your son's wedding or birth of grandchildren. It worked for my parents.
I think your biggest concern now should be in getting your son to become an independent man. When I got out of the military, I moved back in with my father and his wife. I was there about a month before he gave me the boot. I did not take it personal and it caused me to figure out that I needed to fend for myself. Right now I think you are being an enabler to your son developing lazy habits.
The hard part for you is going to be making some drastic changes.
Oh Renee, yes it is sad. I think he needs professional help b/c I think his problem started a long time ago.
Now listen to me carefully. You are very, very co-dependent on this man and you MUST break it off NOW. You are going down if you don't help yourself. For God's sake don't call him anymore. And....I can't believe you gave him money. Sweetie, you cannot buy people's affection, love or friendship! It is so sad and pitiful the way you have tried everything you can think of to "make" him not be angry with you. It is as if you can deal with him living with OW and the D but you cannot stand the thought of him being angry with you. Why? Why is that, Renee? YOU are the one who has a right to be mad as h*ll with him! Don't you get that? Why should he be mad at you? Well.....don't even try to answer, b/c I've read enough that I know what your answer will be. But, that answer does not make what he's doing RIGHT.
Do NOT try to see him ever again except if your son is in the ER about to die, getting M or having a baby! And then "you" don't need to make the call....have another person inform him. Let your son if he isn't in ER! Do you get that? Never! Never talk to him, never leave voice mail, never send leters, never send emails, and never send a message by another person to him. It is over....finished.....through! No, I do not think that he will ever go back to you and I sure don't think he will get over his anger with you....EVER. B/c you are his patsy and it's too easy to blame you for everything that ever made him unhappy! And futhermore....YOU TOOK THE BLAME! I don't get it. I don't get you! I've tried to understand and I've tried to be patient and I still care very much!
I get loving a person all your life, but this is sick IMHO. It is not love....it is something else.....and I wish to God you could get to a professional for help with it. I'm not trying to beat you up, but I am very frustrated that you can't see what you are doing and how unhealthy all of it is. Even though I realize everyone is not like me, and I don't expect them to be....I can't understand how a man could treat a woman as horrible as he's treated you and you are worried to death he may always be angry at you and you just want to be friends with him. You sound like a woman who has been physically abused and she's still worried that her H will be angry...even if he's locked up in the pen for nearly killing her! I see the signs of a form of abuse in your M based on my own connections with the problem....as I've explained before. That is why I say you need help, sweetie, professional help. Surly there is somebody that you can pay on a "sliding scale" rate. Research to see if there is a Christian counseling center in the area...that can help you.
So...you had 20 years together! If he committed the worst crime you could imagaine, would you still cling to him and cry, "But we had 20 years together"? It is time to put this behind you and move on. People change, Renee, and often it is not for the better. He is a prime example of not changing for the better and there is not one thing you can do about it. Why bother? You cannot change him.....get that through your head. You cannot change the situation with him, but you can change YOUR life for the better if you will stop this crying over some sorry excuse of a mna and move on. I know it has not seem enough time.....I can understand, but at the same time, a person has to help themselves. They have to "accept" things as they are and stop fantasizing about changing it. That is what keeps you pulled down. You are constantly replaying the past, wondering what went wrong and what "you" could have done differently....and it is very unhealthy. You said you needed to understand what went wrong before you could move on. why? What difference would it make? It won't change reality. I did try to take all of that into consideration when you explained it had been six months since the D, but in all your posts of rehashing the past events......what has come of it? Nothing but more pain, so I see no benefit for you to put yourself through that pain when there is nothing you can do about it. You said you could learn so you would not repeat it in the future. Well....the most important thing to learn is NOT to marry another man like "this" man. That is the most valuable lesson here. Yes, you can learn and I see things you have owned up to in the bad decisions you made regarding your son and other things. It's good that you've done that, sweetie, it really is. But it worries me that you keep playing out in your mind what "he" did to you, to the son, and in the MR. You worry about him now and how he feels toward you .....now. That's not right....in my book. You have tried to talk to him and see him and nothing will appease him where you are concerned, so give it up.
Look at it this way.....what if it was a disease that you could not understand anything about it? You would still have to deal with the results of what the disease was doing.
I suppose I am verbally shaking you so you will get a grip and realize how all that stuff about wanting to tell him you forgive him, etc. is useless. He doesn't give a cr@p if you forgive him or not! So, he can't handle the guilt, and he probably isn't truly happy.......he's not looking to you to change that. You need to face the truth Renee, and stop trying to see a way that you can squeeze into the picture.
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The bandaide can only last so long it seems.
You are right! However, in all honesty, I don't see him returning to you after the bandaide therapy stops working. I think he will find another avenue in life or a different woman. He will go the rest of his life trying to find a new bandaide b/c that is the kind of man he is. He holds onto his anger b/c he "wants" to hold it. You can pray for him to find the help he needs, but please stop doing this to yourself.
I'm sure you will not like what I've said and I know it has been tough for you to read. If you don't want me to send anymore posts, I'll respect that. However, I had to tell you what is about to explode from my head b/c it gets me so bad to see you do this to yourself. He's not doing it, Renee, YOU are doing it. You asked me "how" you let go of him. You leave him alone! You detach from him physically and emotionally. That's how. Stop thinking of ways to contact him and keep him as a friend. You don't need him as a friend!! You move on with your life and stop dwelling on him all the time. You fill every waking moment with him on your mind. You may try to pretend you don't when around others, but I know you do. It takes mental discipline and it's not easy....but it is very possible b/c people do it all the time. You pull back everytime you find yourself thinking of him and find something else to occupy your mind. You have to do this "on purpose". The more co-dependent a person is, the harder it is to wean themselves. Yes, I said "wean" b/c in many ways he is like an addiction to you. A sick addiction that makes no sense to the "lay person" who is not a professional counsselor.
I have told you what I 100% feel that you should do. If you choose to ignore people's advice and butt with your own head.....you are opening yourself for much more pain. Seek peace b/c it is the best thing to have. When I was young and immature, I sought "happiness" and looked for my ship to arrive every day. It did not happen. That only happen in movies and dreams. But, I did find "peace of mind" and I can tell you that it is the best!
Take care of yourself, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
