Can anyone answer this? Part 8

[iluvme55]

Hey Renee....I just want to say this is exactly how I feel everyday....you described me to a tee....I have had no contact at all with him or our daughter...she misses him so much but she is so mad at him for not even trying to call her to make sure she is ok.... like Snodderly has said they go back to the teenage years and it is so true because he is playing the you call me first game,like a little kid who is being stubborn and having a fit cause he cant get his way.....I am so glad I caught this post...I needed to hear that someone else felt this way......

[Silent Chrleader]

SC and Renee,
Never, ever assume what others are thinking....that gets you into trouble and barking up the wrong tree.

Be thankful I've not had anything to add to the excellent postings that both of you have received.

Hey, Snodderly.

I hope you know that I absolutely meant no disrespect at all!! Quite the contrary......I just meant that I too have struggled with following what my head tells me I should do, and the great advice I receive, rather than what my fear and instincts implore me to do!

And I always really value your wise advice......

[sunshinelewis]

Snodderly I second what SC said.
I too respect your opinion more than you know. That is why I was worried that I had upset you. I sure didnt want to offend you. You have helped me so much.


IRMAC, keep on keeping on. You are stronger than you know.
Just so you know, I have those days were I get so mad at myself for even thinking of my xh. I say what I said before...why in the world do I want someone who doesnt even want to be with me.
AND THEN some days I can just cry to think about what has happened and miss my xh soooo much. I dont miss the man he is now, but the man he was. Sometimes I feel like he has amnessia and doesnt know who he is. I have even questioned why I am the one suffering, when I am trying to live right. BUT I know that GOD has helped me through more times than I even know and I couldnt have made it this far without him.
IRMAC whatever you do, dont give up on GOD, GOD sees way down the road and knows whats best for us, put it in his hands and let him do the work, he doesnt need our help.
It know how hard it is to go on with our lives, but we can do it. Just put all your trust in GOD. Believe in HIM with all your heart and dont give up.

I am here for you IRMAC
Hugs,
Renee

[job]

Ladies,
One of the lessons that we talk about here is to never "assume" anything. That is why I pointed it out to you. Even in your every day living, you can't "assume" what the other person may be thinking or why they aren't communicating w/you or doing something that you want them to do.

If and when I do have something to post, I will. Renee, you've been given excellent advice by all and I do not have anything of value to add to their postings at this time.

[sandi2]

Can someone please tell me why I am still hung up on a man that doesnt want me???????????
What is wrong with me!!!

I believe this is something a psy doctor could have a field day in teaching us all this lesson. In "Sandi's" opinion.....a great deal is in the individual's complete "make-up" as a person. Their personality, thought process, personal belief's & concepts........everything about them. I used to think that the parent's influence had the most to do in people being turned the way they are, but I think I have changed my mind. I've lived long enough to see too many kids raised by the same parents and they all turn out with their own vastly different POV, self-esteem, and so on. Of course, it should be that way, but I find it fasinating. I've spoke to you about my younger sister and how different she is from me. She had the same influence from the same parents as I did but she "used" to seem weak to me b/c she had very low self esteem and acted as if she could not think for herself and did whatever she was told by anyone......except me or our parents! That is what amazed me. She would usually end up doing the opposite from whatever we tried to tell her. The past several years, she has slowly drifted away from me b/c she feels inferior and thinks people are comparing us and expect her to be like me (which is not the case). When I was younger and a lot more immature, I would get so frustrated with her b/c she "was" so different from me and I could not understand why she was like she was. That is not to say she does not have her own good qualities, talents, etc., but she seems to feel so inferior around our mother and me until she shuts us out of her life. I think that is so sad and we've tried to talk to her, but it does no good.

When she loves a man, she completely opens herself to him. Nothing is held back and I think she is the type that just "soaks" in every ounce of attention he gives her (which is mostly negative and unhealthy), any affection he may show (which is little), and she lives in denial trying to convince herself that they are happy and have a good life. He disrespects her and is mentally abusive to her! At first, I tried to tell her that and he turned on me and put a wedge between my sister and me. Anyway, I think there are many, many people in the world who have this unique ability to love so "completely". Perhaps it was my mother's influence growing up hearing her "preach" her ideas and feelings about relationships, but I am the type of person that is very "proud" and that is not always good in a MR. If it had been my H who had had an EA instead of me.........the M would have never stood a second chance b/c I would have been out of here and never looked back. If he had ever said one.......just one of the rotten things that your XH said to you.....that would have been the end! That is not to mean that my way is the "right" way and yours in the wrong way. We are simply different in how we feel in R's and how we respond and deal with our personal issues. My sister told me once when trying to get out of another bad R, that if I had not been with her when her XH came after her, she would never have had the guts to tell him "no". That blew me away! She lived in so much fear of everybody who raised their voice or looked at her wrong. Her self esteem was never as high as a bug. I don't know why b/c she was always beautiful and had a good personality. There was just something in her that made her think she had to do whatever another person (outside her family) told her to do. As if she did not have a brain of her own! Needless to say, she got into a lot of trouble when she was a kid. Her R's were not healthy b/c she was clingy and needy and the man was usually the type who mistreated her. IMHO, it was b/c she "allowed" it. I tried to tell her that if she stood up for herself he would treat her better. But she did not have the courage and finally begin to tell me that she was too weak and could not be like I was. It would upset me to see her mistreated, but I would "really" get upset b/c she would not take up for herself and would continue to live in a messy R.

I told all that about my sister to let you know how different people can be.......even from the same family. Don't compare yourself too harshly to some of us here b/c believe me.....their are tons of people who feel just like you do regarding their stitch. A woman who loves like you do cannot let go of it in a few months. She doesn't seem to be able to move ahead and put that R behind her as though it didn't exsist. For the record, I don't think anyone can feel that it never exsisted, but they may try to go on and live that way until they get stronger. Don't beat yourself up b/c you still love him, okay? Sure, it seems odd to me......but I'm not you and it's not my life. You are not my personality type, but that is not to say what you feel and how you think is not just as valuable as I think I am........

Time......time......and more time! Time heals a lot, sweetie, and you are going to have to wait for it. By nature, I am a fixer and I use to try to "fix" my sister. Didn't work. I tried to "fix" her broken R's. That didn't work, either. I finally decided that she was the adult and had to figure out her way of doing things and I had to realize that it would be totally different from the way I would handle it. If she choses to stay in a R that is mentally and emotionally abusive, then I don't know what to do b/c I have said so much to her about that......she is shutting "me" out instead of the abusive person. She cannot deal with him and with me, so she's forced to make a choice between us, I guess, and naturally she is going to choose him over me. I never asked her to do that, but I feel that is what she "thinks" she has to do b/c she can't make both of us happey with her.

This is me journaling a bit to let you look inside at some of my life and hope it may help to realize there is nothing wrong with "you" based on the fact you still love a man that continues to treat you badly. IMHO, I think you are in love with the man you married.......not the man he has become. That is the person you are truly grieving for. Maybe if you could somehow figure out how to separate the two "men" and know that this one is not the one you fell in love with and you will either be able to move ahead (in time & working) and learn to live with that grief, or you will cling to that love and wait to see if that man you M ever shows up again.

Have to go to work. Have a good day.

Sandi

[sunshinelewis]

Sandi you hit the nail on the head in your very last sentence to me. I am clinging to the man I once knew and I am praying he shows up again.
I think because I have no contact with my xh and I dont get to see the man he is now, I only remember, other than the converstaions we had, the man that left my home. I only remember the good times and all the nice things he did for me. I wish I could see how he is now face to face. I only hear from other people every now and then how he looks and how he acts.
I wonder, and would love to know, how he acts to our friends and if he is hisself or another person.
Sandi by remembering and talking about our past alot I think I am trying to decide if he was mentally abusive to me. If I have lived my whole marriage this way than I am gonna think this is normal...this is why I think it is important to let you and some others hear into that world of mine. I need to figure out if my marriage was normal or if I let my xh by with way too much. I MYSELF need to know if I was "like your sister". I need to try and figure out if my husband was this way all along and I didnt see it. Sandi, alot of people use to say to me that my xh was cold hearted and had to have things his way and that he never listened to anybody. THIS is EXACTLY what he said that I was, without the cold hearted part. Why do you think he thought this of me. I will tell you why I think he thought this of me because, unlike your sister, I have a mouth and I USE IT. I DO say what is on my mind and I DID tell him what I thought. I would argue the point with him. BUT my weakness was, when he threaten to leave, I FREAKED INSIDE...no I DID NOT want to be left alone again, SO this is what he held over my head. He knew this scared me and he used it to his advantage.
I have said before, this man sometimes would carry me food, help clean house, wash the dishes, clean the toilets and so forth. I would think and still do that I WILL NEVER find a man again to treat me this way. He did these nice things alot but when he didnt get enough sleep or when he was tired or stressed he was angry. He would cuss alot and in a very loud voice sometimes screaming. When we argured about something he would say I am done talking and that is it end of discussion. He KNEW EVERYTHING about anything, if he didnt he would make it up and make you believe it.
BUT most of all he lied alot.
I was talking to a family member and she asked me if my xh kept me away from them. I thought about this and I think he had so much influence on me that I would do anything he said.
He always talked about my friends, alwasy found something bad to say. He talked about my family and HIS family. We both have family members that are always in trouble.
It seems though that everybody was out to get us according to him. He sometimes would have good things to say but alot of the times he would tell me that I let people run over me.
Sandi, I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him. Just guessing at this. He just never seem to really like whomever my friend was. He would even talk about the way they kept house, just stupid stuff. When we would sit around and just talk alot of the time it would be negative something about somebody especially our friends. He had me agreeing with him, he had me convinced that nobody cared about us and we could trust nobody.
I never got to meet my father in law, but they say he was a big man and in charge always. He past away shortly before I met my xh. I dont know exactly how his father displined his children but I have heard he was rough. Maybe the cold heartedness came from there. My xh is always in protective mode it seems.
When his mother died, he grieved very little...he said life goes on. When my mother died he was so scared that I was going to go into this grieving process too long, even said so. That is just him. He says alot "Thats Life".
Sandi, I know no other way of living. I know that I let him go and do whatever he wanted. He said I could do the same, but I never did.
As far as protection goes, I know he would have fought anybody or anything that bothered us. I was his.
Sandi, I never tested him, he never had to worry about me leaving him and he knew that. A couple times I told him I was unhappy just to see his reaction and he was very concerned and worried.
Bottom line HE HAD TO BE IN CONTROL.

I know you didnt want me to go down the xh path, but Sandi I need to figure out if this was normal behavior or not. I need to figure out what my weakness is and why I let him influence me so much. I thought my h knew EVERYTHING and was so SMART. He had me conveniced of this. It even got to where he thought he was the better cook, housekeeper and so forth. Really I am telling the truth. Why I didnt put my foot down i dont know other than I felt like he worked hard and always provided for us and he deserved the best. I felt like we only had each other.
Sandi, is it my fault that I let him away with this stuff? Is it my fault he got bored or tired of the responsbility and left us? Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be? This new gf, from what I hear, does not let him by with anything. She told me once, that he would never talk to her in a bad manner, that he never had and never would. Maybe this is what I should of done. Maybe he likes being bossed around.
I have got to learn what I did wrong so I CAN make corrections in me.
I think personally, I let me push me around too much. I saw him do it with others and thought it was ok.
I will add more later got to go fo now, dinner is here i think.

Hugs,
Renee

[sandi2]

Dear Renee, I'm so glad you told me all of that. I think under the circumstances thazt you do need to discuss how things were in the R. Especially since you are not able to go to a C. I'm not much of a counselor, but I have seen men just like you described your XH. I have also seen the women they lived with.

I know a man who was M for years. Raised a family and had several grandchildren. In fact, all of his children were grown when at last the M blew apart. It was one of the worst results of a MR......outide of great physical abuse.....that I have ever seen. Now, there may have been physical abuse and I just never knew about it, but I do know from what the W and the youngest D told me that he was very metally and verbally abusive. They attended the same church as I did and I could almost "look" at the W and suspect abuse. She would dress nice and she laughed and talked about him in a nice way, but it was always something in her eyes that made me wonder. His D could really cover up well, as did the rest of the kids & grandkids, but I saw glimpses of his anger and how he lost his tempter and how "sensitive" he was about things. He was very dominating and yet the time I crossed ways with him and held my own......he did not know how to deal with it. In fact.....he "couldn't" deal with it and probably nearly blew a gasket! He did not intimdate me and I stood my ground, which he was not use to any female standing up to him! I later heard that he did crazy things, like drive by our house and say stupid immature things to his W & D. After the break-up, I was filled in with plenty by the W & D and everything I ever suspected about him was true. He was just as you have described your XH. And....guess what? After being such a bully to his W and own kids & grandkids, he marries this woman from red-headed German woman (and you know the reputation red-headed Germans have for tempers...lol) and I hear that she makes him walk the line! It is so funny, I want to lie in the floor, kick up my heels and roll over laughing! He was awful to his family and so many things he never allowed his W do to......this woman does! In fact, she does anything she wants and he is like a kitten. I think he met his match and knows he best keep his mouth closed!

To answer you question, Renee, yes I do think he was abusive. He was verbally abusive and he was mentally abusive....for sure. If my ever cussed me one time.....or even had a fit and cussed somebody in my presence, I am certain I would leave him. Of course, that is not the type man he is and I did not grow up in that atmosphere, so it is not my intentions of putting up with it. I was told once that people treat us like we "teach" them to. I also heard that said a little differently. People treat us the way we "allow" them to treat us. At the time, I was having a terrible time with a co-worker and so that was not very comforting to hear. What is so hard is once you allow them to get that intimidation in on you, then it is almost impossible to break. I said almost, b/c I think I come very close to allowing that to happen at work, but not quite. I think in your case, as well as some other people I've know......it happened so subtlety in some cases that people became kind of "use" to it before they realize just how awful it had become. In other cases, (maybe like yours) the W did not know a "better" way and thought she was "happy" when the truth was that she was not being treated well. There are a few that are what I called "brainwashed". Now, I told you about my sister, but I haven't told you about my daughter. She got D from her first H, (and I think on a "rebound"), started a R with a man who was very abusive. He was mentally, verbally, and finally physically abusive to her. The sad thing is that she had never been treated like that in her life! We gave her a good, strong and loving home. But this man had her so brainwashed into believing every word he told her and would not believe her own parents. He had her thinking he was next to God, or something. I just could not believe now he was able to twist her mind around and think totally like a different person from who she was. It got very bad and she ended up in the hospital before she got away from him for good. I have never told anyone on the board about this, but I wanted you to know that I have seen it up close and personal.....without being there in it myself.

I have to leave for a while, but I will finish later.

Sandi

[sandi2]

I'm back. I know that was a long post and this one will be also, but that is how "I" have to do it to get things covered....so hope you can hang with me here.

I only remember the good times and all the nice things he did for me.

I see this compared to when a loved one dies. It seems no matter how rotten they may have been in life, we still only remember the good times b/c we are "grieving" the loss. I think it is part of our human make-up. In some ways you are still "blinded" b/c of your love (be it healthy or not) for the man you knew in the beginning. I think you are vry wise to be examining yourself, even though it is painful....I think it is necessary to pick this apart so you can figure out the truth and be able to heal and to grow from the experience. But, let me throw this in so you won't think that you are in any way adnormal, okay? That is why I shared my personal closeness and told you about my sister (which I barely touched on that subject and will get back) and about my daughter's experience. In some cases we can look at their background and snd think that is "why" they fell for a guy that ended up abusing them and that they couldn't seem to see the stitch for what it truly was.....even though others may have tried to tell them. That one is easy. It is when the woman comes from a close, strong nit, loving family who was raised with strong moral and Christian values that go into a R that the entire family can "see" the man is not what she needs.........that is what is puzzling for me. I think we could look at each case or person as "individual" b/c they are separate and each life is unique simply b/c it is "their" life. I'm sure a professional could "lump" you with some big fancy name and say that is the reason you fell for this man even b/c he was a bully, over-bearing, obnoxious, selfish, loud , etc. But this is "your" life and it's very personal so I would think you want personal answers.

I wonder, and would love to know, how he acts to our friends and if he is hisself or another person.

Based on the men I have known who come to mind when I read about your XH, I am sure the he puts on a "front" and talks loud and is blusterous in everything he says and does b/c he is trying very hard to convince people around him that he is doing just great......couldn't be better.......glad you left....was the best thing that ever happen.....yada, yada, yada. You see, a man like him is having to cover up "reality" so much that it takes all of his time and energy trying to make people think he is this big tough guy who is just fine and dares anyone to get into his way......when the truth is he is scared to death to face his own demons and certainly isn't about to let anybody else see them. He would go down fighting before he allowed himself to look deep inside at "why" he is the way he is. He would almost do anything before he could do that, b/c he has been so many years in this "state" or "conditions" or frame of mind or .....I don't know what word to use for it. He started out trying to be somebody who he really wasn't b/c he had been either hurt, mistreated, exposed to bad parenting, or other early childhood experiences that left him feeling that he was alone and nobody would love him if they could see him weak and vulnerable. He felt he had to get his bluff in on others or they would always take advantage of him. The way you described his father makes me believe that his dad was a lot like him and made him feel worthless when he was a boy. The irony is that so many times, the son turns out to be just like that angry, over-bearing father he knew when he was growing up. I would bet his dad treated your MIL the same way your XH treated you b/c most learn from their role models and look who your XH had for a role model! Now I can't say that it is always one of the parent's fault when a man grows up to be like your XH. I don't know that to be a fact each time.........again I am using personal knowledge of what I say. It may have been something else, but I feel very strongly that it was something from his early years that affected the personality he would take on and how he would treat those around him. He may even treat people different based on their connection or R with him. He may show a degree of respect to a few chosen. But, I bet the majority of people....he constantly finds fault with them and blames life's unfairness and is critical about every situation and every person he comes in contact with.

I need to figure out if my marriage was normal or if I let my xh by with way too much.

I think it depends on what you consider to be "normal". I think you are probably refering to what we see as being the typical all American marriage and family. I don't know if anybody has a family like the old classic shows on TV use to protray. That is not reality. But, I know what you are saying and I would feel the same way. Based on what you have stated, I think you were wanting to be loved and "belong" to somebody so badly that it would have been the perfect opportuntiy for a man like your XH to step in and take advantage of your vulnerability. By the time you met him, his personality traits were well ingrained and he was "set" pretty much in his ways, however, as things transpired over time.....it took its toll and he reacted in a negitive way....always blaming some other person or the system or whatever for his "bad luck". He never gets a break, right? He sees himself as a person down on his luck that "society" and "the system" is out to get, and therefore he has to bite them in the butt first. His pride was hurt a great deal when things started going downhill. He finds his self respect or esteem in his job and the status that the position brought to him. When in a position of authority, it makes him feel stronger and more in control. "Control" is vital to him. He may have felt very vulnerable when he was young and could not "control" his environment or whatever he had to endure and as a result he decided (maybe unconsciously) to always be in control of those who were under his authority. He saw you as being under his authority b/c he was the H and you were the
"weaker vessel" b/c you were his "wife". That made you his properity and he felt he could show the world what a "real man" he was by the way he controlled you. The fact that you had enough spunk to express your feelings is a plus for you but I'm sure it caused much anger in him b/c he did not know how to deal with it in an intellegent way. All he felt was a rage and stress when things went against "him" or his authority. That is why I feel that somebody (like his dad) who was an authority figure in his life was too hard on him. He must have felt defensive and all he knew was to try to build some type of "protective" shell and pretend to be this awful person until he actually became an awful person. If we start out shaping our personalities in all the bad ways and allowing negative emotions to be in control of us, then in time it does take over and we have truly become that individual. That is JMHO and others may certainly disagree. That is not to say that a person CANNOT CHANGE IF THEY WANT TO BADLY ENOUGH! Just as the man who married the red-headed German woman who makes him walk the line.......he is like a totally different person now. I don't know enough of the details about their MR to understand why it took this srong no-nonsense woman to show him he was not going to walk all over her like he did his first wife......but it did the trick! And the sad thing is that his first wife was/is a very sweet lady. But you see......she "allowed" him to treat her this way until he was totally out of control and she could not take his abuse any longer. She was living in hell and had to get out of it in order to save her own idenity as a human beging. Her self esteem was so low that the only way she had to go was "up".

The same thing could be said about my sister and the relationships she has had with men all through the time she started dating through more than one marriage (I might add). When I think back on those steady boyfriends she had and the men she was with.......every single one of them treated her like cr@p. Now why do you think that was? Why on earth would a person who was pretty and had a little bit of sense (not much) but a little, would let these boys and men treat her so disrespectfully? Oh, sure when she first met them, they were nice and won her over....but in a short time, she would be experiencing the same old stuff. It was like she never learned from her mistakes. I want you to learn from your experience, Renee.

I MYSELF need to know if I was "like your sister". I need to try and figure out if my husband was this way all along and I didnt see it.

In the beginning, he probably wasn't to the degree he became. Give yourself a bit of credit for believing you would not have married a total monster. I don't think he is a "monster" now. I think he has some type of problem that goes very deep and as a result he became what he was with you in the MR. If he truly had changed b/c of this new GF and b/c he "knows" he can't treat her like he did you, then it proves he can control his ways. Doesn't make you feel better knowing he took his bad feelings out on you.....and you were there to love him and support him. But look at "him" as being the bad guy here.....not you. You wanted to be loved. You "thought" you had a normal MR. Again, we all have our own ideas of what "normal" is. My sister has never been treated any other way by any man she was intimate with, so in a weird sense......she thinks it is normal....for "her" life. She knows that our mother, me, our GM and none of the other females in our family (except for that one R my daughter had) has ever allowed any man to mistreat them. The women in our family have what I think is a normal self-respect and some may have a need for stronger self esteem, but the majority of people feel that way and it doesn't mean you accept an abusive R just b/c your self esteem is low.

Speaking of self esteem, I believe that men who are like your XH have very low self esteem. You would think that a woman who looks up to them and shows open adoration for them would over come any low self esteem......but my sister almost gets sickening with her laying all this "male ego food" at my BIL's feet and he just treats her worse. So, go figure. It seems to almost be a law of life. If you bow down to people....or they "think" that is what you are doing.....it seems to be the "animal" in them to be disrespectful. Doesn't say much for mankind, does it? Women like my sister see it as showing "love" and hopes that her H will give her a little in return. It never seems to work that way. The sad thing is she tried for years and years to make her family think that it was all different when they were alone. Yeah, right! If a man shows disrespect for his wife in public....you can bet your rear end that he doesn't respect her in private, either. Perhaps some women do not understand the difference in love and respect. Maybe they were trying so hard to receive "love" that it totally turned the H off and he begin to treat her sloppy as a result. We could speculate for hours and might not hit the target of your stitch......but as you said, you need to try. Maybe in the conversation, you will see something that opens the picture and you will know how things transpired and led to the end of the M. I believe you certainly need closure in order to continue to have any kind of happiness in life. I find that it help to be able to understand why things happened. However, in some matters, Renee, we may never understand and when that happens, we can only "accept" what happened. We don't have to agree or like it, but we need to accept it and move forward. That was why I was trying in the beginning to get you to stop focusing so much on your past and the M with your XH, but now I see where you really need to try to sort this out. I hope it will be a tool for healing.

Well, I am not sure I know how to express in words how I see it in my mind. In his own personal issues, he became a over-bearing, loud, obnoxious, and very selfish man who wanted complete control over his life. Whenever he felt he was not in control of you......when you would talk back or try to stand up for yourself.....that is when he was fighting the only way he knew how and that was to blame you for what he was really was! It is so ironic, isn't it? Again, please do not take what he said about you as being the truth! He simply was losing the tight control and didn't know how to keep you in his power, so like a immature child, he spouts off. Bullies do that too, you know.

BUT my weakness was, when he threaten to leave, I FREAKED INSIDE...

That was his trump card. His last resort was to threaten to leave. I think by that time, he was probably too far gone in his own personal problems. I doubt that you could have done anything. In fact, if you had left him, it may have shook him up a bit, but don't know that it would have had lasting effects b/c the two of you would have re-entered the same MR and he would only pick up where he left off. It took an entirely different woman with a different way to change things. That is not to say you are less than she is. It is just "different" in his eyes. Maybe he learned something very emotionally deep in his experience with you but he would not admit that to ANYONE!! He still has those deep seated issues about how he represents himself to his friends and associates. He must continue to be this big strong MALE.

no I DID NOT want to be left alone again

This part is what breaks my heart! I don't know if you said that intentionally or not, but it clearly goes back to you feeling left alone and forsaken as a child. But, you do NOT have to depend on a man to have you as "his" wife or to even love you. Yes, we all hope to have somebody in our life that loves us.....I don't mean that. But as little girls, I think a lot of us grew up with that storybook living happily ever after idea that if only we found our "Prince" then we would be loved forever and always be taken care of. How many times does it happen in real life like that? I'm thinking never. (Unless you watch the Housewives from New Jersey on TV.....LOL.)

SO this is what he held over my head. He knew this scared me and he used it to his advantage.

So, you are beginning to see it for how it really was......or have you always known in your heart....but couldn't face it?

You told of the different ways your XH helped you around the house, etc. That is great b/c it means he has some good qualities. I suppose the guy that my D had that abusive R with was/is the only man I knew who I could not find one decent thing good about him. He was just plain mean and hateful and nobody I know ever liked him. My D will tell you that he absolutely brainwashed her and took advantage of her vulnerability b/c she was coming out of a divorce. She looks back and wonders who that girl was! It was not her usual self. In some ways, I think she was in rebellion about some issues that I won't get into. My sister started out in rebellion in high school and dated boys that our parents probably would never have "approved" of if they had known the truth about them. So, in her years of rebellion, she set forth a "pattern" of what turned out to be very, very bad choices of men to become involved with. I doubt she even realizes that fact. She has had to turn a deaf ear to us and even to herself in order to continue to stay in her stitch. She tried to leave once and he made her feel forced to go back. So, see, he still has that control over her.

When we argured about something he would say I am done talking and that is it end of discussion. He KNEW EVERYTHING about anything, if he didnt he would make it up and make you believe it.

Very typical of his personality type.

BUT most of all he lied alot.

Oh yes, I know about that part also. Perhaps it is a cover up of their own low self esteem........but for whatever the reason.....it is wrong and certainly not healthy for them, not to mention the people around them.

I was talking to a family member and she asked me if my xh kept me away from them. I thought about this and I think he had so much influence on me that I would do anything he said.

The same is true with my BIL. In fact, he even turned their children against our mother and me. Why would anybody do that? He would convince them that his mother (who lived across the country and never contacted them) was the better GM and I was not a good aunt who loved them. It absolutely broke my heart but I could not change what he distroyed. I tried for a long time, but he eventually influenced them so much that they never come around my house or see me except at holiday meetings. All they talk about is "their daddy" which would be okay if they were small children, but we are talking are almost grown. He is nothing but a bag of hot air and he has these kids convinced he is some kind of hero........yeah, right....a cartoon hero! If a rational person sits back and looks at him, they know instantly he is a joke. He is all talk and bluff! Well, he got his bluff in on his family in the early years, and now they have the price to pay for it.

Sandi, I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him.

I can't copy and paste all the things you said that fall into line of this same senerio type of personality. However, everything you describe is totally on target with my BIL. Isn't that something? Isn't it something--that you came here and we found each other? But rest assured that you are not the only woman, by a long shot, that goes through this! I just happen to be one that is talking to you about this problem.

Sandi, I know no other way of living. I know that I let him go and do whatever he wanted.

Oh sweetheart, I understand that. What happened in the past cannot be changed but you can learn from that and you can decide to figure out how to live a better future. I promise that you can do this if you want to badly enough.

I really do not want to stop here, but this post is so long, I guess I better and then come back later.

I'll pick back up.

Sandi

[sunshinelewis]

Sandi thank you for responding to me.
I have to say that after all that I said about my xh, for some reason I can not get angry at him or stay angry at him anyway.
I feel sorry for him. I wish I could help him. I saw at times the inner child in him.
Sometimes he would come up behind me and hug me and act all wishy washy...for no reason.
THIS is the man I miss.
Then there have been times that he could have knocked me out if I had been a man. He said several times that I make him madder than anybody he ever knew.
He said several times, after he left, that he wanted a simple life.
Sandi, my son and I put xh on a pedistol. We thought he was OUR hero. We thought he knew everything and my son still does.
It was just us 3 against the world. That is how we felt. Now he has left us to fend for ourselves and we are crushed. Thats how we see it.
I am quickly learning I can take care of myself and my family without him. Not my choice but he wants it that way.
Sandi, I know this new girl is in control of him, but will it last? Because when I met my xh he pampered me to no end. He even promised my aunt, whom I lived with, things he would do for her.
Still to this day has not lived up to his promise.
I contolled him bigtime. I threatened to leave him once and he freaked, (this was before we married). He got down on his kness and begged, I mean BEGGED and cried for me not to leave him.
I can see him doing this with her. It's like he is that young man I met years ago. I even told me, whatever the new gf wanted she was going to get. He has even discussed having kids with her, said he would like to have twin girls.
Sanid, my xh never wanted anymore kids...this is not HIM. From what I hear this is part of the MLC. I dont know though.

***I have to end for now, I will pick up in a bit.***

Renee

[sandi2]

Good Morning,

I hope I don't appear to be a hog by taking up so much of your thread, but you can always start a new one.....

Your story is close to my heart and that is why I wanted to try to say something that might help you. I tried for years to reach my sister, but her H worked to pull her and their children away from the family and any friends she tried to make. The kids have nobody in their life but him. For one thing, I have never heard or seen a male friend with BIL. As you said, it was him (and now his family) against the world. He brainwashed my sister into thinking I was trying to interfer into their lives and not to listen to anything our mother or I had to say. It was very difficult for me to stand by and watch her abused in that way.....but I finally gave up and decided if she would not listen and chose that life over what she could have.....then I was powerless to help her. However, if I ever see any signs of physical abuse, I will step in b/c that is my baby sister and I can't sit by and watch that happen. I do know the mental and verbal abuse goes on all the time, but that is something only she can stop.

One thing that always bothered me was how she would refer back to her other marriages and say enough that I knew she thought this was her last chance b/c in her mind.....nobody gets D three times. Yes, she this is her third M and every man she M was just alilke!! It was weird. They all were built up similar in size, and they all were a bag of hot air, and they all treated her like dog poop. The first one was physically abusive but they lived off away from us and she didn't have children then and ran off during the middle of the night to come home. That was after she had supposedly left him for good about a year before due to the abuse and would you believe he talked her into going back to him? It amazed me the power the man had over her. When she left my house to go back to him, I was crying and when she hugged me good-bye she told me everything would be okay and I told her right in front of him that, "No, the next time...he will kill you". He didn't open his mouth to me, b/c he was a coward, but I'm sure he had plenty to say when he got her alone. The second H abused her sexually, mentally and abusively and it would take a book to tell all the horrible things he put her through. It would sound like fiction, but it really happened. I think in order to "live" with all that happened, she has someway put it out of her mind and acts like she has forgotten it. We never talk about it with her, but it has always amazed my family how she M three men who were all alike. I only bring all that up in case you happen to see anything in that that rings a bell with you. And.....to continue to let you know that I have been close to the problem similar to yours.

I would think and still do that I WILL NEVER find a man again to treat me this way. He did these nice things alot but when he didnt get enough sleep or when he was tired or stressed he was angry

But don't you see?......you felt and still feel that you do not deserve anyone to treat you with kindness! YOU DO DESERVE KINDNESS FROM THE MAN YOU ARE MARRIED TO!! That is the least a H can show to the W he is with is to show kindness. Even with people we aren't M to, we show kindness......right? So, I hope that you will add to your "list" that you DO deserve to be treated with dignity, respect, and kindness. Every individual wants to be shown dignity. I have learned that by working with the public at various jobs down through the years. But in a M.....both partners want to be treated with those things. Of course they want love and sex (which is the physical expression of love). BTW, did the two of you have a good sex life? If the only time a man shows any signs of "love" is when he wants sex?........something is very wrong. I have never....since the day they got M and he kissed her at the alter.....seen my BIL put his arms around my sister or kiss her or even sit next to her. Now, she knows not to try to show him any affection in front of people, and in their bedroom....she is so starved for his kindness that she clings to him for sexual attention. As soon as he is "relieved" then he turns over and that is all the "love" she gets until the next time. I just know she feels like some object he uses to release his sexual tensions....and then he's through with her. She had done all the "positive" things to try to make him happy......except standing up for herself and having a backbone.

As I said before, you can find at least one good quality. My BIL never misses a day on the job. Maybe that is where he feels important. But that is the good thing I can say about him. However, it is my sister who is killing herself working to bring in the money she feels the family needs to live on. My BIL buys his "toys" to hunt, fish, golf, or whatever his latest sport may be. She feels the entire financial burden on her shoulders and he acts like he could care less.

I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him. Just guessing at this. He just never seem to really like whomever my friend was. He would even talk about the way they kept house, just stupid stuff. When we would sit around and just talk alot of the time it would be negative something about somebody especially our friends. He had me agreeing with him, he had me convinced that nobody cared about us and we could trust nobody.

Yes, my BIL was/is that way, too. In fact, they have a son who is close to my GS's age (b/c I started my family young and baby sister started very late, so that's why the close years in her son and my oldest grandson). Anyway, my GS tried to have a close friendship with their son and my BIL was so jealous that he didn't give up until he split them apart. He even stooped to telling lies on my GS. He was worse than a child. I never seen any grown man act like he did, but then his son is the only friend he has and he is not about to let another person come along and take "his" place with his only friend. It is another way he has of controlling his family.

My xh is always in protective mode it seems.
When his mother died, he grieved very little...he said life goes on. When my mother died he was so scared that I was going to go into this grieving process too long, even said so. That is just him. He says alot "Thats Life".

I have known other men who came from either too unreasonably strict parents or either from such a large family that he never got the one on one attention he needed. Each one had characteristics like you described. They had it rough as a kid and they each had (usually a father) who had the attitude that "that's life, get over it" and showed no sympathy for anyone. I have never seen my BIL show any signs of emotion other than a bad temper and a cold, cold heart. My sister is just the opposite and is very tender hearted and he gets so ugly with her when she breaks downs and cries. These type of men make their family feel that they are weak (especially a son) and need to toughen up and don't allow yourself to "care" about anybody else. I am suprised your XH grieved at all when your mother passed away. She must have touched him more than he meant for her to. We've had close members of our family to die and they were exceptionally kind people, but my BIL acted so cold and showed no tenderness for my sister who was grieving.

Sandi, is it my fault that I let him away with this stuff? Is it my fault he got bored or tired of the responsbility and left us? Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be?

I really answered this in my last post, but you added it up when you said you knew no other life. I doubt that you had the tools to know how to deal with him. You probably did not know how he was going to treat you after M and it probably began slowly and increased as time went by. My BIL did not treat my sister before M like he does now. I don't think he was too bad at the very beginning and his attitude toward our family wasn't as bad. I'm not sure if he kept it under wraps and it slowly came out of hidding or if something triggered that nature in him. I thought that he saw a person in my sister that he could run over and when he got a job he was very unhappy with, that is when he started coming home and really taking it out on her. I felt that she was so afraid from pasts MR's of his bad attitude and temper that she cowed down in his presence and acted like a whipped pup. That is all it takes for a bully! He will make your life miserable after he discovers you will take what he dishes out.

Why I didnt put my foot down i dont know other than I felt like he worked hard and always provided for us and he deserved the best.

Notice that you said he deseved the best! That is how all W's should feel toward their H's. However, to be honest, Renee, I don't think you thought YOU deserved the best and that is why you settled for his bad treatment of you. You thought since he worked hard to provide for his family, you should be happy he did even that much b/c you felt unworthy of anything more! Yes, you stood your ground at times and it frustrated and angered him b/c of the lack of control he felt, but this feeling of unworthiness all goes back to your growing up years. You never were able to over-come that and it hung on all these years. If you were to go to the county library and check out books on self-improvement and self-esteem, etc., I think it would help you a lot. I even found tons of free stuff on the Internet about women's self esteem. It was good and you would hopefully start to grow by emotionally feeding off that information. You need it badly!

Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be?

I think this is what is really eating at you now. B/c this new GF seems to have made an entirely new man out of your XH.....right? I know, I would wonder the same thing as you are doing and it hurts to see another woman step into "our" place and everything seems to be what "you" had wanted and never got. Am I pretty close about that?

Maybe if you had handled things differently from the very beginning......but who knows? Besides, it has happened and you could beat yourself up every day and it would not change the past. However, whether you have another R with a different man or if your XH leaves this new GF and wants to pick back up with you........know that you will be different and that no man will ever disrespect you again! You have learned from your past mistakes.......and as bad as you might want to "not" admit it.......you could learn from what this new GF is doing to make things work. However, he hasn't M her yet and time will tell the story. If he should want to get back together with you, he needs to know that it will NOT be the same R you had before. That is another reason for you to try to heal and grow and start working to improve your own image of Renee in YOUR mind. If you become the woman you like and respect, then you won't allow another man or woman to treat you less. People are just able to "sense" this about another person and they act accordingly.

Maybe he likes being bossed around

I don't know that it is so much of that as the fact he knew from the beginning he could not boss "her" around. That caused him to respond in a positive way. She probably does not put up with him coming home in a bad mood or talking about other people the way he did with you. But, you see, they are not M and he knows that she could walk out on him without a minute's notice. I have heard people say that that is one advantage of not being M in a R and it makes the man treat the woman better. Isn't that sad? Maybe there is a lot of truth to that statement b/c he knows not to take her for granted. He took you for granted, big time. He knew you would be there just as long as HE DID NOT LEAVE YOU! I think you unconciously must have had this "neediness" about you he sensed and maybe it turned him off. Even if you yelled or whatever and wanted you way about something......the clinginess in your emotions over-powered the yelling matches.

You said you saw your XH push others around and thought it was okay. Why do you think that was? Was it b/c of the brainwashing technique he had used on you to believe whatever he did was fine? When you saw someone other than your XH run over people, how did it make you feel?

I have to say that after all that I said about my xh, for some reason I can not get angry at him or stay angry at him anyway.
I feel sorry for him. I wish I could help him. I saw at times the inner child in him.
Sometimes he would come up behind me and hug me and act all wishy washy...for no reason.
THIS is the man I miss.

Yes, you are still grieving over that loss and you will continue to do that until you can find closure with it. Unlike a death, you are trying to find out the cause of what went wrong. Well, maybe that would be the same if there had been a tragic car wreck and he died, you would want to know what happened, right?

Maybe feeling sorry for him is better than the other emotions you COULD be experiencing. You are able to see his weakness and that is good b/c his "hero" image has fallen and now you see him as he truly is.

The actions he displayed that made you feel that you could almost see his inner child was a time he had a need to feel secure (IMHO) and as if he was looking to you as a mother figure. We W's don't like to think our H's look to us as their mother, do we? However, try to see how you probably was emotionally looking to him to replace the father that left you when you were small. Have you ever thought about that? Both of you had some serious issues growing up and it was kind of like watching a trainwreck in progress after the two of you M.

Then there have been times that he could have knocked me out if I had been a man. He said several times that I make him madder than anybody he ever knew.
He said several times, after he left, that he wanted a simple life.

It was his sense of not being in control that made him so angry. I think the reason he is doing as well as it appears he is in the new R with GF is b/c he was tired of the fighting and the frustration in the M with you, but he did not know "how" to repair it. To him, the only way to find that "simple life" was to start fresh with a new woman. You see, it does seem easier to end the old R and start with somebody new. I was in that frame of mind when I was going through my "crises" at the time I came here. I saw no hope for my MR and wanted out. I was sick to death of it and had tried everything I knew to make it better. So, when OM came along.....that seem to be the answer. Your XH sees this GF as a "different life" for him........and he is trying to be different, but as I said.....we will see b/c those traits he has are inbedded very deep. So, if he losses it and go off on her....that may be the end of "their" storybook fairytale.

Sandi, my son and I put xh on a pedistol. We thought he was OUR hero. We thought he knew everything and my son still does.

Exactly what I see in my sister's family.

I am quickly learning I can take care of myself and my family without him.

That is the most important first step to take! When you discover that you can live without him, then you will be able to reach these other levels. It takes time, but you are well on your way considering it has been this short period.

I contolled him bigtime. I threatened to leave him once and he freaked, (this was before we married). He got down on his kness and begged, I mean BEGGED and cried for me not to leave him.

Hummmm........well, he apparently is in one mode before M and then enters another mode "after" the weeding vows and feels the ball & chain effect. It goes back to how he is treating the GF b/c they are not legally M. It also goes back to how "you" were before you M him. But once the wedding rings were on the fingers, then you started putting up with more and more of his cr@p as he gradually added it up. As time went by, you must have felt more fear of the idea of him ever leaving you. We women do that, you know. Maybe it goes back to how we grew up as little girls and thinking we had to have a man take care of us. When we start to get a little older, then we think we are losing some of those looks, etc., that inticed men in the first place and how will we ever get anybody else. In your case......it stems back to the experience of your father leaving you. You never healed over that, Renee. That is obvious and I wished there was somebody who could help you. I think your Pastor or Priest could help you in that area. He would probably be even morewilling to help and spend time in that area b/c there are so MANY couples having troubled M's today that I think men in Church leadership are so bogged down with people's M's that it gets "them" down to the point they dread to see the next one mention a troubled M. That is JMHO (again). If you feel you can talk to him about "anything" then don't hold back b/c of anything I have said. The reason I said that is b/c of how I will come to the board at times and I basically read the same senerio over and over. Sometimes, I just can't deal and have to turn away from the board that night or stay away for a couple of days. It's not that I don't "care" but it gets me to the place I feel I am saying the same thing to people and the idea of starting over from scratch with a newcomer......well, you understand (I hope). Truthfully? That is why I was "rushing" you to hurry and let's get moving on and stop talking about your past and your XH. I did not realize how badly I was handling your personal stitch until you pointed out how you had not had enough time since the D. Then I realized I needed to slow down.

I can see him doing this with her. It's like he is that young man I met years ago. He even told me, whatever the new gf wanted she was going to get.

That goes back to him wanting to start "over" in a new R. He is back to trying to be that young man again. It is easier for him to do that with the GF b/c she has not lived with him all those years and seen all his bad side or as often as you did. That is why I said that only time will tell if they stick together or not.

He has even discussed having kids with her, said he would like to have twin girls.

Now this one statement...alone....sounds like a man in MLC!! How silly and immature does that sound to you? I wouldn't think so much about him saying he would like to have children with her but to talk as if he is "picking" them out of a window? That is pure childishness.

The fact that he told you how he plans to spoil the GF shows that he is selfish and mean spirited and wants to hurt you. He knew exactly how bad that would pierce your heart. He knows how bad he has hurt you. He knew how you were hurt as a child. HE KNOWS ALL OF THIS....and yet he chose to do it. He will continue to stab you will daggers every chance he gets until he sees it does not effect you at all. That is why you must work hard not to wear your heart on your sleeve where your feelings are so easily seen. Pretend you have high regard for yourself until you can actually "feel" it.

He may very well be in MLC b/c he is showing a lot of signs. What he is doing now is trying to recapture his youth. I think they call it "replay" or something like that. He is trying to redo his M with a new person b/c he screwed up his first M so badly.....so throw the old out and bring in the new! Add these immature statemens he has made and this behavior he's displaying......it all adds up to a man in MLC. The sad thing is that it may take years before he comes see reality and then he may be in another M...srewing it up. That is why you can't afford to "wait" around on him, Renee. There is no telling what may happen within the next few years. He could have several more GF's by then. Whenever he decides he's not happy with the one he had, he'll throw her out and find a new one b/c he wants a woman to "make" him happy......and it just does not work like that. We have to make ourselves happy and it won't happen if we don't even like who we are.

That is why I hope you can emotionally drop the rope that ties you to him and move on with a life. You don't have to stop loving him, but you need to break this emotional bondage. Your son will always be the tie that binds you to him, but you can still be in control of that. We'll talk about that another time.

I know my posts have be extremely long and I hope I did not wear you out trying to read them. I would not spend this much time in writing if I did not care about your life. So, please take that as a compliment b/c I meant for it to be. You ARE worthy of good things, Renee. You DESERVE to be happy in life. Please start today by talking to yourself and telling yourself these messages. It may seem like a crazy thing to do, but it matters what kind of "tape" is being re-played over and over in our minds as to how we will feel. If all we have playing in our minds is like a negative recording we're listening to....guess how we will feel and how we will act? So, start telling yourself that you are a good person and you are worthy and deserve good things.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi