GETTING UN'STUCK'

[25yearsmlc]

stuck

I FOUND YOUR THREAD!! Per your request, I am reading through them ALL...and it's taking some time so I'll just be brief with a few impressions.

We all get that you don't call the spouse MOM or DAD unless you are talking to the kids.

2nd I disagree with FF(??) saying "the 180s get tiring" b/c my definition of 180s empower and energize me. Don't do the 180s solely as a tactic to get your w back or it will lead to resentment on your end and it isn't real anyhow. It's mainipulative.

Nope to the ultimatums now. That's insane anyhow. You are not in a position to issue any to her b/c she has a foot out the door. Am I missing something? You want to save the M right? Now, IF and I repeat, IF you are ready to cut the cord b/c you are at the end of your rope, fine. Set an ultimatum and then back it up with a div b/c you are not likely to get the response you want. YOU MIGHT...like the Hail Mary in the Boston College game, it could happen. But be ready for it not to.

The real question is what does she want? Also, I agree that NOT all "A"s are the same and they CAN and usually DO end on their own. And frankly, if she felt neglected as a woman and had an "EA" with her boss that did NOT lead to sex, it IS different. To almost the whole world. Come on, even YOU know it would hurt a hell of a lot worse if she had slept with him. I know it does not make the EA right, but it is easy to see why she distinguishes it AND besides, in her mind, the evil A's mean that parents leave their kids and spouse NEVER to return. So that is HER frame of reference....

For now, be kind, GAL, be a man only a fool would leave and I'll read some more later and post more later.

I'm big big big on NOT shaming the WAS into returning home. Here's what I wrote elsewhere on this topic--(and if you are religious at all, try reading "Blue Like Jazz" b/c he explores how we misuse religion in these situations. WE all know someone who quotes scripture to us, NOT to welcome us into their church or show us God's love, but to make themselves "win" an argument or "be right"...anyhow...for now, here it is...)


SHAME and why it sucks for all concernedl

Most LBSers at some point try to guilt or shame the WAS into coming home. We say "How could you?" and "This is immoral, wrong, selfish, a SIN, against God's will, etc." (I know I did.)
I have given a lot of thought to this. Here's my opinion and it is based on personal experience)

Shaming a WAS into "trying again" ALWAYS FAILS IN THE LONG RUN, EVEN IF THE WAS COMES HOME[/b]... yes I mean that literally. No couples reconcile for good, and I mean RECONCILE, (I don't mean move back in the home b/c true restoration of the M and reconciliation mean a lot more than just living under the same roof... You will find people here who urge you to condemn, EXPOSE the SINNER, and then they use GOD as a weapon for that. I say Shame on THEM.
How on earth will your WAS ever come home (in the true meaning of the word) to a man/woman with their arms crossed in judgment who says, Yeah I "FORGIVE" you BUT...."

Again I speak from experience on this, okay? Been there, done that. I Felt "right" to be the way I felt, [b]but not happily married.

Instead we LBSers need to welcome the WAS home with a model of forgiveness that says "Yes we can start fresh and no I won't throw this in your face ever and now, moving on....OH--and btw, I was at fault PLENTY too, and am working on MY stuff too and thank YOU for forgiving ME" [i]and mean it.


MY MAIN POINT IS THIS--
IMO, No WAS who feels shamed into coming home, will again feel loving, or warm or affectionate or attracted towards the source of the shame. And that source of the shame won't be the WAS' past action or OP. At some point, the source of the shame IS the LBSer. I see this particularly for the LBSer who guilts the WAS into returning by misusing God or religion, or family/societal approval to get the WAS back.
They "expose" the sinner to shame and while they claim to forgive, it is NOT the real kind of forgiveness modelled by Christ (and those of other religions who really forgive). It is the kind of fake forgiveness wherein the LBSer acts as if they are the sole victims of a problematic M, and wear their "forgiveness" as a badge of sainthood, and are smug about it often, so you cannot ever disagree with them due to their moral superiority and they feel OWED by the WAS and blah blah blah and might throw it in their face or LOOK LIKE THEY ARE ABOUT TO every time a conflict arises....so many LBSers do this and wonder why the WAS finds someone else, or simply leaves again, for good. [/b][/color]

To me, that is the shame of this all. And if this does not apply to you or only in part, fine. Just wanted to post it.


J-

[sandi2]

As an almost WAW, I want to say thanks to "25 years" for the post she sent. I agree about the judging and shame department. In fact, I have to agree with all that she said. I have tried to see other's POV about it, but she has voiced what I feel in my heart. I know that as long as my H had that sense of "judging" about him and acted as if he thought I should be ashamed of myself.....it only caused me to rebell that much more. Now, I knew in my heart that I should be ashamed for my actions, however, I was not at that "place" yet and his attitude about the EA and "me" just made it worse. As I said before, it was after he settled down and was able to stop with the "judgmental attitude" that I was able to get through what I needed to. Don't know if that makes sense or not, but hope it does.

Stuck, I did want to respond to something you said. You said that you were being cold and detached from your W. Even if she is acting cold and detached......that is not the exact way for you to behave. I don't know if you did not mean that or if you do not fully get what the detachment thing is. As I have said in past posts to you, having her in the house is to your advantage. I know it is hard and you see her all the time and want & need her sexually. However, it would be soooo much worse if she or you were to leave the home. Trust me about that. One of the greatest problems I see you having is acting friend-ly toward her. You are not to be cold! Being detached is not being cold. I don't know why men can't seem to get that, but you are shooting yourself in the foot everytime you give her the "cold treatment". You can still be friendly toward her but detach yourself physically by giving her space and detach yourself emotionally by GAL and stop focusing on her 24/7. But nowhere in this DB technique are you to act "cold"! Why would you? Are you trying to punish her? Do you think she will go crawling back and want you sexually?

I wonder if you have misunderstood anything I have tried to explain in past posts b/c I know I have discussed this with you several times. In detaching......it not only gives her space, but by GAL and doing all the other things I have suggested (and I won't go into all of that again) it should cause her to feel more drawn or attracted to you. But not by being cold to her. There is nothing worse about a H than him being cold to his wife. It goes the other way also. Men hate it when they get the cold shoulder from the wife.....right?

So, if you are confused about this issue of detaching and being cold, please let us know so we can try to discuss it farther. If it was kind of a slip of the tongue.....then let us know that also so we won't be so concerned.

Stuck, I want to encourage you to keep hanging in there even though it is tough and you are suffering the results of all this mess. If I did not think you were doing the right thing by applying this method, I would say so. I think when you are tempted to give her some "my way or the highway" routine.....it is b/c you are frustrated and are wanting to hurry this process along. It can't be done like that. As "25 years" explained, you can't force her or threaten her or try to shame her back into a R that does not appeal to her. So, that is what you need to do........become the person who would be very appealing to her so that she would desire to be in your arms and "know" that she would be loved and not judged.

Now I am going to be very frank with you and say that I have a feeling that you have not fully forgiven her for the EA. Do you know that she can sense that very well? Don't you know that she can almost smell that about you? When you can truly, completely forgive her and are willing to accept her just as she is.......then that attitude, forgiveness and love will shine through you just as much. The reason I wonder if you have really reached the place you need to be is based on what you say in your posts and "how" you say it. I am not blaming you! I am just saying that you can't expect her to get to the place you want her to be, until first you get to where you need to be.

You know I care and I will be here to try to encourage you and also tell you when I think you need to step back, regroup, and start again. This is the purpose of the board.......and friends.

Take care,
Sandi

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks Sandi,

Stuck, Sandi and all, I just read a book that helped me articulate this (and no, I don't agree with all of it, but that is okay and THAT is part of the point of the book. Being okay with not agreeing on all of it...)

But it is about faith and how we have it in our lives and how we use it or misuse it, etc. and it is what got me to thinking about how I've used shame or guilt wrongly.

So, the book is called "Blue Like Jazz" and I HIGHLY recommend it. It will help ALL of your r's so yes, your M will improve too. Or at least whatever is left of it if you are on these boards. H and I just read it on our vacation and it touched us and troubled us, in a good way, deeply. Food for thought and a lot about forgiveness. Which is a tough one if you never saw it modelled in your home as I didn't growing up. Forgiving is something we have to LEARN to do and it does not always come naturally.

Like I said, food for thought & the book helped me to "get it". So yeah, I would recommend it to anyone who is wondering where God fits in all of this.
And how to forgive or view forgiveness.
J-

[confusedinpa]

As I have said in past posts to you, having her in the house is to your advantage. I know it is hard and you see her all the time and want & need her sexually. However, it would be soooo much worse if she or you were to leave the home. Trust me about that. One of the greatest problems I see you having is acting friend-ly toward her. You are not to be cold! Being detached is not being cold. I don't know why men can't seem to get that, but you are shooting yourself in the foot everytime you give her the "cold treatment". You can still be friendly toward her but detach yourself physically by giving her space and detach yourself emotionally by GAL and stop focusing on her 24/7. But nowhere in this DB technique are you to act "cold"!

Stuck - I agree with Sandi 100% on this one. I know in my situation, my wife was hell bent on leaving to the point she even called a realtor to sell our house. So I took the "caged animal" approach and opened the door, as you were full aware of how that came about/went.

My DB coach had said that keeping in the house was very important, but having her feel trapped was not a good thing either. I didn't get the detached vs. cold thing either. I still don't but am getting a better understanding of it each time I read the posts.

So please heed Sandi's advice here. It has been a long time that someone posted something positive in their situation, I just hope that you will have that opportunity.

Stay the course and been the man.

Take care

[25yearsmlc]

As I have said in past posts to you, having her in the house is to your advantage. I know it is hard and you see her all the time and want & need her sexually. However, it would be soooo much worse if she or you were to leave the home. Trust me about that. One of the greatest problems I see you having is acting friend-ly toward her. You are not to be cold! Being detached is not being cold. I don't know why men can't seem to get that, but you are shooting yourself in the foot everytime you give her the "cold treatment". You can still be friendly toward her but detach yourself physically by giving her space and detach yourself emotionally by GAL and stop focusing on her 24/7. But nowhere in this DB technique are you to act "cold"!

Stuck - I agree with Sandi 100% on this one. I know in my situation, my wife was hell bent on leaving to the point she even called a realtor to sell our house. So I took the "caged animal" approach and opened the door, as you were full aware of how that came about/went.

My DB coach had said that keeping in the house was very important, but having her feel trapped was not a good thing either. I didn't get the detached vs. cold thing either. I still don't but am getting a better understanding of it each time I read the posts.

So please heed Sandi's advice here. It has been a long time that someone posted something positive in their situation, I just hope that you will have that opportunity.

Stay the course and been the man.

Take care

There are happy endings to being here. But I hate the word "ending" as ALL M's are works in progress, just as we are individually. But yes, DBing is why I'm M, and not divorced, (and my higher power, whom I call God, definitely did the rest).

Anyway, YES the detaching issue seems bigger for men than women. Here are some ideas I'm throwing out....Maybe FOR NOW you can act like you would with a sister? Meaning, can you be friendly and upbeat and GAL and all that, without expectation and without ANY sexual feelings displayed?

And Surely you've liked SOME women at work and found them attractive but NOT had affairs with them? (Of course!) So can you do that type of behavior and respect their privacy, as in, not asking personal/pursuing questions of your w? For now, that's my best analogy I have b/c my h was gone for days or weeks at a time so when we spoke on the phone it was obviously easier to be detached. When he was HERE, I tried to be busy and not around. When he was around, there were kids to deal with or cleaning and believe me, my house was clean THEN!

Also, if you had just met someone you wanted to date BUT knew they greatly preferred men who played hard to get, could you do that? EX: meaning You're still appealing, attractive and polite but you are sooo GAL and you have so much to offer that you are super busy meeting interesting people, going to fun places and doing fascinating things!! Very busy with ALL of that, but oh yes of course you are courteous and pleasant to her...who wouldn't be in YOUR lucky shoes? But as for her whereabouts and concerns and activities...frankly, YOU are too busy with your cool life to notice. Why would YOU concern yourself with that? If she wants to share something with you, although you are quite busy, you have a little time to listen if it isn't hurtful...(if it IS hurtful, then you are TOO busy OR you can tell her that it's not interesting to you. Obviously if she's trying to hurt you, then we're talking something else altogether, but assuming this is just DETACHING...then stay the course. SO let's say she shares a neutral experience with you or a meaningful one that does not threaten you, ie something she'd tell a friend...then LISTEN LIKE A LOVER/FRIEND....(My db coach said to listen like a lover, but in your case if the pursuit thing is an issue then I'd modify it to say, "Listen like a BF" b/c that is what you are, among other things. And it's something to build upon.

When your w starts to act differently or seems closer, we can address that then. I know there is a yin and yang thing and that DOES happen. Heck, it happens to ME even now! But let's cross that bridge when we get to it. I have to catch up more on your sitch anyhow.

Also there is a great piece somewhere here that I read 2 years ago and if you can find it, find it. It's on Detachment and it lists examples. I still need to read your posts from #15 to 22, I think hey ...you are a prolific writer.
Will get back to you soon.
J-

[25yearsmlc]

As an almost WAW, I want to say thanks to "25 years" for the post she sent. I agree about the judging and shame department. In fact, I have to agree with all that she said. I have tried to see other's POV about it, but she has voiced what I feel in my heart. I know that as long as my H had that sense of "judging" about him and acted as if he thought I should be ashamed of myself.....it only caused me to rebell that much more. Now, I knew in my heart that I should be ashamed for my actions, however, I was not at that "place" yet and his attitude about the EA and "me" just made it worse. As I said before, it was after he settled down and was able to stop with the "judgmental attitude" that I was able to get through what I needed to. Don't know if that makes sense or not, but hope it does.

Stuck, I did want to respond to something you said. You said that you were being cold and detached from your W. Even if she is acting cold and detached......that is not the exact way for you to behave. I don't know if you did not mean that or if you do not fully get what the detachment thing is. As I have said in past posts to you, having her in the house is to your advantage. I know it is hard and you see her all the time and want & need her sexually. However, it would be soooo much worse if she or you were to leave the home. Trust me about that. One of the greatest problems I see you having is acting friend-ly toward her. You are not to be cold! Being detached is not being cold. I don't know why men can't seem to get that, but you are shooting yourself in the foot everytime you give her the "cold treatment". You can still be friendly toward her but detach yourself physically by giving her space and detach yourself emotionally by GAL and stop focusing on her 24/7. But nowhere in this DB technique are you to act "cold"! Why would you? Are you trying to punish her? Do you think she will go crawling back and want you sexually?

I wonder if you have misunderstood anything I have tried to explain in past posts b/c I know I have discussed this with you several times. In detaching......it not only gives her space, but by GAL and doing all the other things I have suggested (and I won't go into all of that again) it should cause her to feel more drawn or attracted to you. But not by being cold to her. There is nothing worse about a H than him being cold to his wife. It goes the other way also. Men hate it when they get the cold shoulder from the wife.....right?

So, if you are confused about this issue of detaching and being cold, please let us know so we can try to discuss it farther. If it was kind of a slip of the tongue.....then let us know that also so we won't be so concerned.

Stuck, I want to encourage you to keep hanging in there even though it is tough and you are suffering the results of all this mess. If I did not think you were doing the right thing by applying this method, I would say so. I think when you are tempted to give her some "my way or the highway" routine.....it is b/c you are frustrated and are wanting to hurry this process along. It can't be done like that. As "25 years" explained, you can't force her or threaten her or try to shame her back into a R that does not appeal to her. So, that is what you need to do........become the person who would be very appealing to her so that she would desire to be in your arms and "know" that she would be loved and not judged.

Now I am going to be very frank with you and say that I have a feeling that you have not fully forgiven her for the EA. Do you know that she can sense that very well? Don't you know that she can almost smell that about you? When you can truly, completely forgive her and are willing to accept her just as she is.......then that attitude, forgiveness and love will shine through you just as much. The reason I wonder if you have really reached the place you need to be is based on what you say in your posts and "how" you say it. I am not blaming you! I am just saying that you can't expect her to get to the place you want her to be, until first you get to where you need to be.

You know I care and I will be here to try to encourage you and also tell you when I think you need to step back, regroup, and start again. This is the purpose of the board.......and friends.

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi please see my post, which I took partly from here, to Eternal optimist's thread under "utter agony" or some such name. In there, Puppydogtails takes a very diff approach to A's and I think that thread could benefit from your point of view and Your experience. It's uniquely valuable to many. And so, can you check it out? Thanks,
J=

Stuck, sorry for the partial hijack...still catching up to you but then again, Some of this is on point, isn't it?

[MrBond]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your words of wisdom and I'll be getting to each one individually shortly.

Just journaling right now.

Everything was going well this weekend. She seemed a little more positive and upbeat. One thing did bother me though. This evening, I decided to call my mom at the hospital since she's been watching my grandmother there for over a week. She's been staying there every night getting very little sleep, so I figured I'll have everyone call her to cheer her up. I specifically ask my W if she could just say 'hello' and she refused. So I had my D's call her. I was disappointed to say the least, but I tried not to let it show to seem okay with her decision.

I guess I'm more ashamed or feel sorry for her that she's changed this dramatically. My mom loved her like a daughter and even now calls every now and then to see how my W is doing. She supported us too since the beginning, letting us stay at their house while we were saving up for money for our own.

Yet my W couldn't spend 30 seconds just to say 'hello'.

I know everyone's going to say it's because she's uncomfortable, or ashamed, etc. And I understand. It's just sad on her part. Plus she's a nurse who's supposed to be the compassionate one.

Oh well.

[aliveandkicking]

I know everyone's going to say it's because she's uncomfortable, or ashamed, etc. And I understand. It's just sad on her part. Plus she's a nurse who's supposed to be the compassionate one.

It is sad. I would say that she is extremely depressed.

[MrBond]

AAK,

You think that's depression talking? In what way?

Actually after the conversation and I didn't make a big deal out of it, she seemed to be in a good mood.

[MrBond]

AAK,

Oh and the list you sent over was amazing. Thank you so much for opening yourself up to give that opinion.

As for Retrovaille, I know that we are definitely not at that point right now. But who knows in the future. God has a tendency to work in mysterious ways.

You're an amazing person with an attitude that would definitely turn men's heads. It's great to follow through on your thread too.