Can anyone answer this? Part 8

[sunshinelewis]

So, tell me why are you still itimate with him?

I haven't been intimate with him in 5 months. Since he moved in his gf.


There is cake eating.....and then--there is CAKE EATING!!!

Well Sandi I don't know if this would be cake eating when I was the one begging him to let me in the door. Yes I BEGGED him to just let me in for a few minutes, then I would pursue sex. He actually would tell me that it wasn't a good idea and it wasn't right. I would have to just about make him have sex with me. Then he would say ok, but no kissing, it brings up too many feelings.
I was SOOOOO desperate to have him in my life...it was pathetic. I just now realized how much so, I wish sooo much I would not have acted in this way.
There was maybe 1 or 2 times that he would pursue me in the beggining and 1 or 2 times that I didnt have to really MAKE him.
Somebody should have tied me up and tranquilized me for 8 months or so.


He sounds like the worst, most arrogant man in the world.....but I'm sure he is just a number amoung many MLC/WAS.

I have to say he is VERY confident and yes sometimes arrogant. Most people say this about him. Some say that he is very cold hearted and very cocky.


I don't know if you have always "spoiled" him or if that was his natural "personality"

I would say YES I spoiled him and he would say he spoiled me too. He always got what he wanted as far as "toys, such as fishing poles and such", he took 4 vacations a year and only one with me. The rest was fishing with buddies and son.
Yes, it is some of his personality...It is ALWAYS his way or else.
Although, after he left he said I NEVER listened to him and I always had to have things my way.


Don't let anybody do you as low down as he has, sweetie! Why or how did you get to this place of such low self-esteem? Have you been this way the entire time you were M to him or did it start later? It really bothers me (as you can tell) for a man to rough-shod over a woman and her lay down and take it......and ask for more....like you have. Have you ever received any type of counseling? If not, I hope you will seriously consider it.

I DO have low self esteem. I have always thought this. Actually I think it is because the men in my life, including my dad, has always left me behind. I have always had this. I never had a mom that took any time with me. She had alot of nerve problems and anxiety. I basically have laid down and took whatever he dished out becuase honestly I think that NO ONE else will ever want me, so I guess this is why I fought so hard to keep him and why I am so scared.
No, I have not found a counselor yet. I really cant afford one and dont know of any free ones. I have spoken with my pastor a few times. Both of my pastors know my xh personally so I dont know how much they can help me, they are close to the situation. I DO want counseling so bad though, would love to talk to somebody.

Tell me what you have done to feel better about "Renee" since the D. What do you do to GAL? I know that you are still too focused on him and you'll continue to be until you drop the rope.

Sandi, should I have long dropped the rope by now? And exactually what would dropping the rope consist of? I know what it means.
I have actually been doing alot of stuff. I hardly am ever home at night, I am always at a friends with my nephew along. I am trying to save my home. I am also trying to find a job with better pay and more hours. I start school in August. I want to be an OB Nurse. I am so excited about school. It should take me no more than 3 years or so, but I think I can start working around 1 year and a half or so.
I have been going to the tanning bed and I NEED to start working out. I lost a little weight, but would love to lose alot more.


What has the longest period of time been that you have not made some type of contact with him? What do you feel you could do in order to stay busy and keep from contacting him first and just see if he would contact you

The longest period of time without any contact...this means email, texting and phone calls...would be around 1 month and a half to 2 months. I really stopped counting the days. I use to count the days and found it drove me crazy.
As far as him contacting me. He will NEVER contact me as long as he has his gf, and dont know if he would after that. He did take my calls until she moved in with him and they broke up twice, then he stopped altogether. If I would call, he would answer, hear my voice and then hang up on me. Even from the beginning of this he didnt contact me but maybe once or twice, that has been over 8 months. BUT why would he have too, when I was calling him EVERYDAY! I was sooooo not in my right mind, couldn't have been. So him contacting me, I dont see it happening. One months and a half seems like a long time when you are wanting so desperately to hear from them, but I know its not that long in his mind. I think the gf has a little to do with this, or maybe she doesn't, but he use to at least tell me he wanted to hear from me every 2 weeks or so, to check up with finances and stuff.

I did see where you seemed concerned (too much) if he would be called a WAS or in MLC. The two are very similar, but for sure he is a WAS! Right? So, what if he is in MLC? Would that make a difference in where you stood?


Yes I have been dwelling on the WAS or MLC thing alot. In the beginning when I first came to this board, people would say and some still do, that if they are in MLC then we should treat it as a disease and love them and treat them like they were sick...but according to some on here if they were a WAS then that was different. So, I have been trying to figure out which one he is, because I thought it made a difference. Really and truly I am sooooo tired of trying to figure out what he is. I am having a hard time thinking that something isnt wrong with him I guess, he is just NOT the man i married and he has become to me like he was to some of his prisioners he took to jail...mean and cold hearted. I saw this man through his surgery and was there for him and would never be this mean to him, even if I wanted the divorce. I dont want to give up on the man I married.
Sandi, let me ask you this. Would you stand for your spose if you knew they were just walking away and they were NOT in crisis?

Let me end in saying. I DO NOT see him or go around him anymore, so the abuse has stopped. I also want to say that I respect your opinion and many others on this board. I know that Snodderly and some others are getting agitated with me, because they think I am not listening, when in fact I am, I am just having a hard time understanding why this is happening to me. I know their advice is spot on and I do try to do what they say but its hard to accept this. I have always been one that is "hard headed and never gives up". I will not stop until I completely understand something and that agitates some people. I hate to give up and I am trying so hard not to let this beat my family. I do also most importantly TRUST IN GOD!

Hugs,
Renee

[Dawn of Hope]

Renee,
You don't have to GIVE UP on him or on your M...you can stand for your M even after D. It's just that for now, you have to live your life as though he is never coming back, because it is the best thing you can do for yourself, AND for your M. Pray for him, and for your M, avoid trashing him to others or doing stuff in revenge or anger...but keep moving forward. Trapt has a line I really like that seems appropriate here:

Stand...but don't stand still.

Peace
Dawn

[sunshinelewis]

Dawn I noticed your h has the younger woman syndrome also.
Why would someone their age want a woman that young?
I dont care if I was the one that was leaving, I would NOT want a 25 year old man.

[sandi2]

Oh Renee.......you made me cry. I have to tell you when I first read a little bit about your stitch I nearly came unraveled to think you have submitted to this treatment. But something was said on another thread about a completely different stitch and it made me realize that just b/c I was raised up the way I was....does not mean everybody has the same "tools" to see situations as they are and know how to deal with them. I do not mean to imply that I am sooooo smart and always know just what to do about everything!! I most certainly do not. However, I was very blessed to have the parents I had and to be given the training I had. You could say that I was raised with a "tough love" approach and my mother's attitude (and my father's also) toward everything in life....infuenced me tremdously. I too have that tough love attitude, but that is not to say I do not have compassion for others. I hope I did not come across as being cold hearted in my post to you, but in a way.....I was hoping to kind of shake you up a bit.

I really did not know if I would ever post to you again or not b/c I did not know if I could ever make any headway......but what you said in this last post has touched my heart and to just cut to the chase here.....let me tell you that you will have "me" to talk to....okay? I am old enough to be your Mamma and you can talk to me about how you feel and the problems you face. My grandmother, mother, myself, and my daughter....have always been very close and talked about EVERYTHING to each other. As I said.....I have been very blessed. Haven't had tons of money, but lots and lots of love. Wouldn't trade it for all the gold in this world!

I knew I was scanning over some of your posts, but I sure misunderstood about you NOT having contact as long as you have. That is a beginning!

I will warn you that I am very different in my personlity and outlook toward MR, the role of the husband and wife, and everything (probably) than you are. But I will try to understand where you are coming from....as best as I can....and try to give you any guidance or glimpse of wisdom that I have gleaned over the years.....if you want me to.

The part that tore at my heart was you talking about your dad leaving and your mom not having time for you. I believe that is your basic problem where your R with your H is concerned. It seems as clear as a picture. As long as you don't play games with me just to pull me along.....and as long as you are honest and at least "trying" to learn and make some changes, then I will try my best to be here for you, Renee.

It blew me away when you said you did not know if it was "cake eating" or not.....and then described your experience of begging your H to let you in the house and trying to make him have sex with you. Last night, that would have really bugged the daylights out of me. Tonight.....well, I feel very sad. You do need help, sweetie, and I am no professional, but as I said.....I will work to try to help you in any way that I can. As you saw, I am plain spoken and I get my 2x4 out when necessary.....but it is when I care. If I don't "care"......I won't bother with the post.

So, there it is......I'm offering my shoulder and my "mom" expertise (lol) if you want it. I probably have never had the experiences from life that you have had......but I bet I've had some bummers that you have not had to endure also. Together maybe we will be able to cover some ground and get you feeling better about yourself.

The way I see this thing is that the core of "your" problem is based on your low self-esteem. Yes, your H is a huge problem (and that is a nice word for him :/) but until you can have self-respect and actually learn to like Renee.....you will not be able to deal with him or anything else successfuly. I may be repeating myself from last night. If I do that occassionaly....just over-look me.....

You have not been intimate with him since he moved in with his GF (which I am very proud of you for that!!)and you have not contacted him in about two months.......BTW, is that this past two months or was it another time? The longer you can go without making contact with him......the quicker you will get stronger. If I am able to help you at all, it will be b/c you trust me. There will be lots of things that I will tell you that will be hard and you may not fully understand "why" but you will have to try and cooperate. I don't mean this to sound like a "power & control" thing going on here. I was thinking more in terms of adopting you as one of my girls......

So.......I will be asking lots of questions. I should just go back and read everything, but it would help speed things up if I could ask specific questions and you answer and go from there.

Okay, so back to the cake eating and your answer to that.....I believe what happened goes far beyound cake eating, sweetie. I do believe that you were scared to death and was so "forceful" b/c your desparation to stop another man (in your life) from leaving you and shuting you out....felt so strong that it drove you to do what you did. Begging him to let you in the house was as if you were that little girl again begging your dad to let you into his life. Almost forcing your H to have sex with you was your way to be assured of his love. You were desparate to have him prove his love right then......and by having sex, that was the proof you needed. But he was so ugly in his treatment to you and it must have made you feel terrible. Anyway, that is what it made me think when I read it again and we will get back to that later.

Renee, I would like to ask a very personal question and you don't have to answer if you do not want to. Remember that nobody knows who you are......which makes us feel safe here. Were you abused by a man when you were young and defenseless?
Do you ever remember being a happy little girl?

Did you have bad experiences when you started dating? By that I mean, did you feel that the boys were the ones that broke up with you leaving you feeling rejected and unable to keep a boyfriend? Have to ask lots of questions to find out more.

BTW, I saw you mentioned a son, how many children do you have? How do you see yourself as a mother? Do the children get their traits of self worth from you or their father? I do believe that parents influence that to a huge degree and it takes a very stong, determined person to overcome negative things that would keep their self-esteem down.

You do know that your H is a very selfish man, don't you? Can you "now" look back and see him as a bully when you were living with him? How can he say that you always had to have things your way? I find that very hard to believe when it seems obvious as to who ruled the roost. Did you feel more confident when you were seen as his wife......and do feel like you have lost "something" of your self value after he left you?

I want to talk about Dropping the Rope and tons of other things, but a storm is coming and my H just told me I need to shut the computer down. So, I will talk to you tomorrow.

BTW, you have read the DR book, right?

Take care,
Sandi

[Dawn of Hope]

Hi, Renee,
A lot of people on here have the "much younger OW" in their sitch. You will notice that if you are paying attention to it.

My H has always been interested in college-age people, especially women (not always in a romantic way). I think he likes something about the energy of the young. I'm also starting to suspect that it ties into his co-dependent tendencies--he is a strongly "caretaker" type, and heaven knows that most college students could use someone else providing the benefit of their brains (and experience, and money, and...). I, on the other hand, can't imagine myself, from the age of about 30 on, ever being the least bit romantically interested in a 20-something man. I am glad to be rid of the immaturity of that age and younger--I have _very_ little tolerance for it.

My H has been heavily involved in community theatre for about 10 years, especially through the community colleges, so that keeps a constant supply of fresh college-age blood available to him. His first OW was 22 when they were involved, and he was 37. The current OW was 22 when they first got involved, almost two years ago now, and he was 43. I think if he doesn't get himself straightened out, he will be finding another 22-year-old when he's 50, and another at 57, and another at 65...yuck! Oh-oh, I just realized I might be M to Hugh Hefner!!

My H has been on a 5-person bowling team with the same 3 "girls" (that's how he refers to them collectively) for about 10 years (the 5th person is a different man just about every year). The girls were all around age 20 and attending the community college when H started his community theatre experience there. One of the girls on the team is my H's OW#1, now M to a guy the same age as my H, who was separated from his first (or maybe second?) W when he and OW#1 started dating, right after she and my H "broke up" because I found out about their R. Following the "breakup," H flatly refused to remove himself from being on the bowling team with her and thus seeing her every week with me not around (I get sick in the smoke-filled atmosphere of bowling alleys), so I had to just learn to live with it.

It was interesting that over the years, many, many times H came home from bowling and complained about the immature things the three girls were doing (including OW#1). I finally learned not to criticize any of them in front of him, even if it was just agreeing with his complaints. I just listened, especially when it was OW#1 he was currently grousing about. But...no matter how much he complained, he kept bowling with them, and probably will be doing so in the fall again, for all I know. And apparently he hasn't had his fill of immaturity, because he's back to being involved with an early 20-something girl. And to add insult to injury, I'm fit and healthy and a size 4 or so, and she's at least double my weight. It's such a slap in the face...or rather, a couple of years' worth of severe beatings.

Wow, I didn't mean to talk so much about my sitch...I hope you don't feel hijacked! Maybe you got something or other out of all that gibberish...

MLC cliches actually have a grain of truth to them, even though they hide a world of pain. I would rather have seen my H try to buy 10 red sports cars than go after one 20-something woman (or any age, really). But ya know, we don't really get to choose...they do. And we have to figure out how to live with it. That's why we're all here on the boards...to make our lives better, in spite of whatever our WAS's choose to throw at us.

Peace,
Dawn

[braveheart]

Renee, it sounds like you have had a lot of troubles in your life, I can relate, perhaps not in the same ways, but this is my 2nd go-around with this. My father walked off and left us when I was young and my mother had to raise us. Needless to say he offered no support financial or otherwise and we had it very rough. My father was in his own world doing what he wanted and to hell with the rest of us. Fast forward to the present day, I have NOTHING to do with him, nor will I in the future. He will call from time to time, but he does all the talking, I am not interested in what he does or doesn't do. I haven't seen him in years, nor will I, even when he dies. I have closed that chapter of my life totally. He recently remarried and asked me to come and stand-up with him. LOL Well, needless to say I refused the "honor" and I certainly didn't go. In fact, I have asked him to not call me anymore that I had nothing to say to him, but he keeps calling from time to time. As for my XW, she always wanted kids and couldn't have any. My sister died a few years ago and had 2 little kids, she wouldn't shut up until I took them in court from thier father, who was a piece of garbage, anyway 2 years into it she told me she didn't want them anymore and walked off. I have been raising them alone while she lives it up. Her family and I were very close, or so I thought, but they upheld her all the way. I also have no desire to talk to them, I closed that chapter in my life as well. I also told my XW that she made her choices and she will have to live with them, and if it didn't work out, she stands alone. Anyway, that's my spill.

[sunshinelewis]

Sandi, I hope you weathered the storm.
I will try and answer some of your questions the best I can.

The way I see this thing is that the core of "your" problem is based on your low self-esteem

Yes my low self-esteem is a huge problem! Right now, to be honest, my thinking is...I will never find anyone else that will want me. I was so blessed to find my xh and have 20 years with him. He was a good father and husband for many years until about a year ago. That's when we started fighting for no reason, I could not do ANYTHING to make him happy it seemed. Every time we would argue during this year he would want a divorce. When he dropped the bomb, I had questioned him about a phone call he wouldnt take in front of me, this was the first 25 year old (that I know of) that he cheated on me with.
He told me from there that he did not love me like a h should love a w and he wanted to sep and possible divorce. He cried and said he was very unhappy but couldnt tell me why, he said he wanted different companionship. Later he told me he wanted to "play" and that was what he was gonna do. I asked him once why the young girls and not someone his age. He said "older women were wise to the game". YES he actually said this. I was just amazed at some of the things that came out of his mouth. I also asked him about some of the things he was saying to these young girls and he said "you gotta keepem happy". I NEVER knew he could ever say these things. I was married to him almost 20 years and NEVER EVER knew this about him. I felt sooooo stupid and blind.

BTW, is that this past two months or was it another time?

Yes the no contact is recently. Actually the last 2 months or so we have had no contact, then I called him at work, about 2 weeks ago, about our home and we talked about 2 min or so, he was pretty nice but in a hurry to get off phone, acted like he was VERY uncomfortable. About 2 weeks after that I tried to call him about son and something else, I dont even remember, and he answered, heard my voice and hung up on me. I guess 2 months wasnt enough, uh?

I believe what happened goes far beyound cake eating, sweetie. I do believe that you were scared to death and was so "forceful" b/c your desparation to stop another man (in your life) from leaving.

Yes, I was most certainly SCARED TO DEATH of losing him, I was grasping at anything to keep him. I think I thought using the sex thing could keep him because this is the one area he said was "great" in our marriage. He said this all during the sep and divorce.

Were you abused by a man when you were young and defenseless?
Do you ever remember being a happy little girl?

Yes I was emotionally abused and some physically BUT not by a man, by my mother. My father left home because he couldnt live with her any longer. He left me to deal with the mess.
(RIP mom). By the way my xh left me 3 weeks after my mother died. I was dealing with many things other than her dealth but had to put them all aside to deal with my divorce. I cant even tell you how I kept it together. Some people here think that I am not making any progress...if they only knew what I have had to endure. AND I am not having a pity party, just trying to make you understand. THIS is a whole nother story that I will have to tell you.

Did you have bad experiences when you started dating? By that I mean, did you feel that the boys were the ones that broke up with you leaving you feeling rejected and unable to keep a boyfriend? Have to ask lots of questions to find out more.

Yes I did! I hung with the popular girls and guys through high school. The one thing that sticks in my mind, is it always seemed I never could live up to their standards, I felt like they always got the best guys, so forth.
I did have one true love in high school and we dated forver, he joined the army and left me also. We never got back together after that. Believe it or not, he has contacted me since my divorce and begged me several times to meet him. He is married but seperated. It would be so easy to fall in his arms so I refused. He says he will always love me and so forth, but I cant even imagine letting another man touch me right now. I would love to have dinner but that is as far as it is gonna go for now.
I also was engaged to another man later on, whom broke up with me after 2 years or so.
Then I met my h and he told me the first night he met me that he was gonna marry me. AND he did.
I dont think I have ever ended a long term relationship.
I hope this answered your question.


BTW, I saw you mentioned a son, how many children do you have? How do you see yourself as a mother? Do the children get their traits of self worth from you or their father?

I have one son and a nephew that I recently got custody of. I think I am a very good mother, but I let my son get away with way too much. My son is JUST LIKE his father. He also have said things to me that I know he heard his father say. My son does not respect me and he run over me. I have been told this by all my friends. I feel I let him by with this because I have lost so much, I dont want to lose him too.
I know I shouldnt let him talk to me the way he does. He tries to be the man of the house, he is 19 (just turned 19), and he thinks he is the boss. My xh does not stand behind me with him, in fact, my xh has said that is one of the reasons he left. He was tired of arguing with son.
I have sent my son to stay with his dad, and after one day he came back telling me how sorry he was for treating me the way he did. BUT he has started doing the same things all over again.
My son is a good kid (man now). He doesnt cuss me or anything, but he does raise his voice and sometimes I could swear he was his dad talking. He doesnt do anything but stay at home playing games on the computer. This was his last year in high school and I want him to go to college or at least get a job to let me with the bills.
I honestly dont think his dad would keep him a week.
I love my son with all my heart and it is sooo hard sometimes to take what he dishes out.
I have to put my foot down...this is a work in progress.


You do know that your H is a very selfish man, don't you? Can you "now" look back and see him as a bully when you were living with him? How can he say that you always had to have things your way? I find that very hard to believe when it seems obvious as to who ruled the roost. Did you feel more confident when you were seen as his wife......and do feel like you have lost "something" of your self value after he left you?

Yes I think he is selfish for what he has chosen to do. My xh had it good for the most part. He went out fishing with his buddies and on vacations with them whenever he wanted. I never told him NO he couldnt do something. I would tell him I was not his mother I was his wife and I would not tell him what to do. My xh wasnt a bully the whole time. He was a good man. When I started to work, he always helped out with the housework and cooking and so forth. The only time he was a bully was when he didnt get enough sleep or when I wanted to talk and he didnt. When he was finished talking that was it the converstaion was over. He like to be in control and said I tried to control him. Whatever. I did have alot of issues with anxiety and panic attacks and I will have to say it propbaly put alot on him. BUT after awhile when he understood that most people go through this he got better about it. My Dr. put me on medicine and things improved. This was years ago and he never mentioned this when he left, so I dont think this was one of the reasons why, but I could be wrong.
The funny thing is my xh said I wanted to control him, and even though I dont think I did, he now lives with a girl that does control him. My son says the gf is the boss big time. My xh even told me whatever she wants is what she is gonna get.
If he complained about me trying to control him, why does he let her? I dont understand.
I do feel like I have lost part of myself after he left me. I dont feel like I have lost a "king" so to speak. But I do feel empty, lonely. As far as my self-worth, I still think I am worth something, but then again I think, if he didnt want me and I couldnt make him happy then who will want me?
I do feel that my life with him was great up until a couple years ago. We always had fun together and got along. I and he were always getting what he wanted, my xh worked 2 jobs for the most part, (and he also let me know this when he left).
I dont think I will ever find someone that I can love as much as I did him though. The bullying and soforth didnt start until about 2 years ago. Up until then we had the perfect life and marriage as far as love and friendship goes.
I dont want you to think my xh was always this way, because he wasnt. I dont know what happend to him.


BTW, you have read the DR book, right?
No I havent, I cant really afford to buy it and I am divorced and I didnt know if I still needed to read it anyway.

Looking forward to what you have to say.
And YES I will be your adopted daughter.

Hugs,
Renee

[sunshinelewis]

^

[sandi2]

Hi Renee,

I wanted to respond to several things you said in your last post. As you noticed, I write long ones, but don't know how to do it any other way when I first get started or involved with a person and their stitch. Thanks for answering so many of my questions b/c I know it wasn't an easy task, but it helps me to know these things. Believe it or not, I was not surprised at your answers. I have known several women with your problems. In fact, I have someone very close to me who could almost be your twin.

Right now, to be honest, my thinking is...I will never find anyone else that will want me.

This makes me feel very sad for you b/c you must think that life is not worth living unless you have "somebody" who wants you. Now, I know that most of us do hope that we have another person to share life with......but we do not need to depend on another person to make us happy. I did not know that when I was younger. I thought my H was suppose to make me happy and when he didn't.....then I thought I must have M the wrong man. I had a lot of growing up to do and a ton of things to learn about life and love. There are books at the county library that you could check out that would help you understand how that happiness is a choice we make for ourselves. In fact, there is a book by that name....."Happiness is a Choice". I even had a class in that subject at our church. At the time, I was not easily convinced b/c I still thought another person could make me happy or unhappy. What I had to learn was that another person can certainly make a difference in our life, but it is how we "live" and the personal choices we make each day. It depends on our attitude. Eveything effects us based on our attitude! I would not have believed that principle if I had not proven it to myself. Even when we have tragidy in life, and other things that we have no control over.......it is how we respond to all of that....that will determine our well being or destruction. I don't go around preaching "positive attitude" like Norman Vincent Peal (I think was the author), but I know it does make a huge difference in everything. I also know that the opposite (negative attitude) is so very destructive to an individual and to an entire family. So, you will probably hear a lot about that from me. Besides, it doesn't hurt to remind myself of these things.....

So, with that in mind....I want to encourage you to try to start looking at your life through different eyes, okay? Instead of thinking that you will never find anyone else that will want you......practice thinking that anyone else would be very, very lucky to be able to catch a gal as great as you are! You see, if you have the concept that nobody will want you.....that is what people actually preceive from you and in some kind of weird way, it turns folks off and could influence them into actually doing the very thing you do not want to happen! Maybe it causes you to show some type of hidden desparation or whatever.....I just know it is true about human beings. Strange, isn't it?

I feel that one reason you look to somebody else to "want" you and to make you happy is due to your growing up years. All of us have experienced losing boyfriends, etc., but losing the man you were engaged to and the man who went to the miliatary......you took very, very personal. The broken engagement may have been blamed on "you" but that does not mean you were the true reason that the M was called off. Again, it is up to you in how you decide to look at that event. Perhaps you were used to accepting that role in relationships. In other words, you almost subconsciously expected to be the "fault" for not getting M to that first man. Then when the other man joined the military and "left you behind".......you took that as a personal insult & injury. Maybe he had talked about M to you and you felt he was running out on you, but still.......you need to look at it as it being his loss--and was better for you to find out he was not in the right place to get M to anyone at that time. I know you were crushed at the time both of those experiences happened and may not have had anyone to counsel with you to guide you through it, but I think maybe you are still hurting over those events and blaming yourself for not being good enough for either of those two men. If you are.....would you do an exercise for me? Would you practice looking at yourself in the mirror once a day and telling yourself that it was their loss that they did not have the smarts to know a good thing when it came along? Say it with all the "umph" that you can muster! Just do that everyday until I bring it up again.....okay?

I am glad that you had a good 20 years with your XH. I am very glad to hear that he was not always as bad as he seems to be now! I do think he is in MLC by what you say about him. It probably started about two years ago and continued to grow until it came to a full blown situation he could not cover up anymore. Again, I feel that you are taking the "blame" for this. Believe me.....HIM HAVING A MLC IS NOT YOUR FAULT! I don't think there is anyway a spouse can stop the other one from having a MLC. I could talk for a long time about that, but I want to cover some other things you said.

I could not do ANYTHING to make him happy it seemed.

Just as nobody can "make" us happy, neither can we make them happy. It's true we can influence a person's life to much degree, but if he chooses not to be happy.....what can you do about it? Nothing! So, here is what I am asking you to do.....when you look in that mirror and say those things about the other guys?......I want you to tell yourself that you were not the reason for the downfall of your marriage. That's right, that is exactly what I said, b/c you are beating yourself up for all that stuff and it clearly was his doing, so stop with the self punishing. When you tell yourself (by thoughts alone, if not verbally) that you weren't good enough, or couldn't hold on to him, or whatever you may think to yourself.......it is a form of self-induced punishment. In order to get a better self esteem.....you MUST do this "cleansing" and sort of purge all the bad things that you feel about yourself and stop taking the blame for all the relationships that you feel has not been successful. This includes your father leaving. You said that it was b/c of your mother. So, I'm sure it must have been very bad for him to leave his family behind, but a lot of men did that back then.

All those horrible things your H said to you that just shocked the daylights out of you.....that is what is known as "script" for a WAH. You can read other stories and it varies little from what each one says to their W's.

I am very glad to hear that you have cut out the contact. I know it must have been hard, but you are doing the right thing. It was unexcusable of him for hanging up on you when he heard your voice. If it were me, I would not speak to him over the phone anymore. Instead, I would contact him through email at his office (so his girlfriend would not interceed) and talk of only business matters and it would have to be serious before I did it. It would be very short and to the point in a business-like manner. Do not take that kind of treatment from him again. You have done nothing to deserve that and it shows how low down he is to show that type of rude behavior to the mother of his child. You "deserve" to be respected for the 20 years of M he had with you, and for the son you bore for him, and the fact he left you for OW. Hold your head up high and "pretend" to have self-respect.....until you can actually feel your esteem getting higher. That old saying of "fake it till you make it" has a lot of truth to it. If you pretend and practice what you want to "feel".....and you do it every day.....it will finally be true and there will be no more pretending.

It still sucks the breath out of me to hear how badly he treated you and the horrible things he said to you when you were having sex with him. I am so glad that you stopped that. B/c he has been so mean and ugly to you, I hope you will make a determination to work hard at moving forward with your life and stop having any connection with him. The fact that your son is 19 will help a lot. When there are small children in the D, that is very difficult. Of course, the son will always be "the" connection between you and XH and down through the years there will be certain events for the son that you and H will both be there. But don't despair about that. When that time comes, you will have grown with grace and poise and will have so much self-confidence it will knock the socks off of everyone around! BTW, I don't know the deal behind calling your XH about the son, but since he is grown, I hope you will try extra hard to make things where the son has to be responsible for his own debts, actions, etc., and not contact XH everytime son does something that concerns you. I know when you are use to talking to the other parent about those things that it comes naturally, but since things are not on a "friendly" note with your X, then it is best to leave him out of it. Apparently, he has chosen to leave you to be the one there for his son.....so......

Let's talk about your R with your son. My sister has a bully for a H and her son is older than yours but still living at home. Her son has grown up to watch his father treat his mother in a very disrespectful way, so guess how he treats his mother? You got it! It makes me sick to watch this and I tried to tell my sister when my nephew was just a kid that it was going to happen, but she did not have the guts to take charge and stand up for herself. Therefore, she has two men in her home who shows no respect for her.

Your son is simply doing what he has been taught by the behavior laid out before him. Futhermore, he will treat all women just like he has seen his dad treat you. Is that what you want? My nephew talks to other girls disrespectful b/c that is the only way he knows how to deal with women. I promise that he will treat other women the way he treats you. It is not too late to change him. It will be very hard b/c you've let him get away with way too much for way too long! However, as long as he is living under your roof, then you do have an advantage. First of all....stop spoiling him! Don't spoil him b/c of the D. Stop acting like the D was your fault. He will blame you if you have the attitude that the D was your fault. Don't go around with a hound-dog look on your face and for sure don't act like you are hopeless and nobody will/could ever love you again! These types of actions only get more disrespect from those around you. Your son will not think "more" of you or feel sorry for you....he could, however, take the opposite side and think the worst of you. That is not what you want to happen. In order to mold him into the man he needs to be, you have to do certain things for yourself......for his good. You will have to be strict with him (even at 19) for his good. Of course, he will resist this b/c he has had it made and he may try to get rougher, but stick to your guns and don't let him get away with anything.

I was watching a reality show the other night where a woman had a son about 21 who would swear at her and say awful vulgar words and insult her even out in public. She said it was b/c he saw his dad do that when she was M. But.....she did nothing to put a stop to it now! He would disrespect her so badly in a crowd of people and she would just brush it off. He needed his face slapped! No way would I allow my grown son to talk to me like that. I would not let any age child of mine talk to me that way. My son is almost your age, and he is a big man, but if I had to climb up in a chair to get his attention you better believe I would. However, I raised him from the time he was born how to treat women. You know what my DIL has done? She has thanked me over and over again for the way I raised him b/c he treats her like a queen. Don't you know that that is about the greatest compliment I could receive? You can do this. Yes, it will be hard since so much time has passed, but you can do it. You just have to make a "believer" out of him and be consistant. You will never feel good about yourself as long as your own son doesn't treat you with respect. Don't let a day pass or a wrong word or look.......don't let it go unnoticed and let it slip by without dealing with it right then and there. Will you do it?

Another way to make him more responsible and by sure....respect his mom, if for you to make him take care of his own clothes (washing and putting away, etc.), his own car and upkeep (if he has a car) and his own room clean.....and any other things he has. You are not his maid, so don't behave like one. Don't wait on him hand and foot. Make him get his own things. Maybe this never is a problem and if not...that is good. If it is, however, then I would sit him down and tell him things are going to change and now! He won't believe you, probably, so you will have to prove it. One thing.....never shout or yell at him. Talk calmly but sternly. That will get his attention quicker. Never argue with him. You are the parent and it is your house he is staying in. Does not matter if he is 80, he must respect his mother! Alway, always back up what you say. Don't threat, just back up what you said you would do. That means you will have to say what you mean or you may be sorry. You said you had been a good mother, so I am hoping you will not have these problems. I hope I have thrown in a lot of things that were not necessary.

I am so sorry that your Mother abused you sweetie. I believe that is a huge reason for you feeling so unworthy and wanting somebody to love you. You have a desparate "need" for another person to want you in their life. Your mother did not abuse you b/c you were bad and not worthy of her love or devotion, etc. She had problems that she did not deal with correctly. She must have had some bad issues for your dad to leave his family. Don't blame yourself. If you don't, then try to tell yourself each day that you deserved better than what you got! Nobody deserves to be abused by a parent. Abusive parents have troubled souls, but that is no excuse for them to take it out on children. I hope you can heal for what happened in the past. I hope you will be able to reach a place that you can even find forgiveness......not b/c she deserves it, but for your sake and peace of mind. Maybe you were able to do this already. I think it may have made her passing a more difficult time for you that maybe a person who had not had to deal with that type of upbringing. (((Renee))) You can take your time to tell me whatever you need to about anything that happen or things you are still trying to deal with. I hope to hear that you were able to burry things with her and set yourself free of that torture. For what it is worth, I don't think you are having a pity-party. You had more than the usual person to face and it takes a long time to heal over things like that, especially if you have not had professional help. BTW, are you still taking medication?

You spoke of the crowd you ran with at school and not living up to the expections you felt were placed on you........did your mother make you feel the same way? Did you also place too much high standards for yourself? I think that often ends in a case of very low self esteem. Other things do too, of course.

Going back to the old boyfriend who joined the military......I am glad you are not having any contact with him. The fact that you do not want to think of another man touching you now is really a good thing. I say that b/c if you did not feel that way, you could be too vulnerable for a "rebound" relationship. That may be exactly what the military man is looking for b/c of his own M problems. If he was so in love with you, he had a poor way of showing it all these years, right? So, good judgement about that situation!

Okay, about reading the DR book.......have you checked with the Amazon Books on line? They have used books they sell very cheap. Your local libray may have a copy.....I don't know, but you could check. There are several places here on the board that have the first chapters in her book. Also, you probably have noticed that there are many of her articles posted which are very good reads. I wouldn't say that it was absolutly necessary to get the book since you are already D, but if you have an opportunity to read it, it sure wouldn't hurt. You do get a lot from the board here, so if that is the way to get information.....then that's good enough.

Have you checked out the forum for the divorced? I don't think I have really read much, but it might be helpful. I'm not saying you have to move your thread there, just wondered if you have read any of the posts or talked to any of them. Where ever you have your thread, just be sure to stay in one place so it doesn't get confusing.

I better get read for bed. Sometimes I'm not feeling well and don't get to post, so don't worry if you don't hear from me for a couple of days. I do try to get on the board each day that I can.

Renee, I have great hopes for you sweetie. You've had a hard time of it and we are going to get through this yucky time and get you moving forward with your life.....okay?

Take care,
Sandi

[sunshinelewis]

Sandi, thank you so much for taking the time to post to me.
So many things you have said since you have been posting to me has brought tears to my eyes because I know they are sooo true.
I have struggled so much trying to figure out why my xh is doing what he is doing to our family. That is why I put so much thought into the MLC thing. Some people say it is an illness and is to be treated like an illness and I sure wouldnt want to be mean to anyone, especially my xh, if he is ill. He did however walk off and leave us after threatening to the past few months, maybe even a year. My son even would say dad isnt leaving he always says this, just leave him alone mom and he will be fine.
During the past 2 years, now looking back, our marriage was starting to decline. We would argue more and it seemed my xh always raised his voice and cursed alot.BUT...a little while later he would say he was sorry and we would make up and things would be ok for awhile. It was like he wanted out, but couldnt imagine living without us and was scared to take that step. It's like he wanted to leave but couldnt find the courage and felt too bad about it to do it, so he stayed. We did fight more, we could never stay mad long though, but the last 2 years we started going to bed mad, something we NEVER done before. Actually after a while I started to think I was unhappy with things and it was my unhappiness that was causing his. (hope I didnt confuse you).
I must have started sensing things, because I started saying things like "dont ever leave me" and he would say, "you dont ever have to worry about that, I couldnt imagine living without you and son".
I dont know if you read all my threads but just in case you didnt let me post what took place the last year or so. I often said and even to him once, after all this, I dont blame you for running, I sometimes wish I could of ran to, but I couldnt and wouldnt.

***Husband's best friend and Capt. on the police force
retired. H had it easier when he was there.

***Husband lost his job because he became careless and in the
I dont care about my job mode. I guess he thought he was
irreplaceable.

***Financial trouble, especially with home
***At this time, h started working out faithfully everyday.
***H and I decided we could not keep our home and moved out
into a rental home.
***H started disliking his vol job of being FIRE CHIEF for
over 8 years and resigned. Very much not like him. He loved
being fire chief.
***H took job with best friend and retired capt. at Nursing
Home.
***After about 3 months, h changed shifts at work from 3rd to
1st and became supervisor.
***H and I decided to keep our home and after just 3 months of
moving out we moved back to our home. 20 years worth of
stuff moved twice in 3 months!
***During the move back home, my mother became very ill and
lost her battle with leukemia.

In all honesty our family went through more in one year then in the past 19.
During all of this, my son and h were fighting constantly about son getting a job, which he needed to. I think the pressure of all the above and arguing with son got to be too much. Xh even said once, I am leaving you can go with me if you want, I am not arguing with him anymore.

When xh told son we were seperating, he also told son he had to live with me. Son was very upset at first.

Anyway, just wanted to kinda feel you in.
I have to go to bed now, but tomorrow I will write about the things my mother and I went through.

Sandi, I have never been one to want to be alone. Also, I get real close to female friends really easy. I didnt have a mother daughter relationship, nor did I have any sisters or daughters...so I felt like I was starving for female companionship sometimes.

You know it's funny that you say xh's MLC probably started 2 years ago and just came to a head. He told me when he decided to sep. that he was tired of leading me on...(and he probably was).

I will end now and write more tomorrow. Thank you again!

Hugs,
Renee