WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[aliveandkicking]

Can you go for a hike? Not sure what your landscape is but that sure helps me here in CA.

I wound up going for a drive in my IROC convertible. It was a beautiful day. I talked to by aunt while I was driving (handsfree). It made me feel a little better. My aunt told me the same as many hear are. Accept the fact that she's not compnf back to get on with my life. She didn't say give up, but not to sit on the sidelines and idle. She also said don't go looking for someone new but live life for now and accept whatever life brings me

I also ran into my neighbor showing his 2010 Camaro at at local car show.

Now I'm back home at least I've backed away from the edge with a little more clarity.

I still don't understand the projection of trust so u could use some help there

Thanks

Sounds like a good day.

On the trust issue, and this is really based on shallow observation, do you think she is trustworthy?

Like I said, I think someone like Coach could help you navigate this...as to how you address that issue (probably be as trustworthy and safe for her as you can). Do you know what specifically her trust issues are with you? Do you think you have violated her trust in some way, recently or in the past?

I wondered if it is an area you are deficient or she is and is projecting on to you.

But, really, I'm no expert.

[confusedinpa]

I think the major trust issue I violated with her is her heart. She trusted me to be vulnerable and had made me promise her that I wouldn't hurt her a couple of months after we started dating. She felt that I did honor my wedding vows of love honor and cherish.

At a more "lower level" trust, she doesn't know why all the cars are in my name. And had thought I had a girlfriend (I did NOT) since I was so "disinterested" in her. We have talked about that in the past. I traveled often for work and would have late nite meetings without much notice. So I can see how she was suspicicous.

She also thought I was surfing the web for porn and having an internet thing as I was on the computer so much late at night due to my work.

She also said today that I ad taken advantage of her in the past so she thinks I will do it again

I'm sure all of us can be suspicious of others if their minds are set on it. I just don't know what to do about it.

[aliveandkicking]

I'm wondering what your take is. How specifically did you take advantage or violate her trust? Sorry, maybe I should read back...is it just that you didn't appreciate her enough, worked too much, took her for granted?

[sandi2]

Originally Posted By: sandi2
As you have time, you can figure out how to "show" her without words and getting a personal life while you are dropping the rope and moving forward may sound as if you are not loving her or standing for your M, but you can. GAL and dropping the rope does not change your beliefs and your standards. It does not change your desires.

I certainly hope so as I still don't understand how do I show her that I still love her while I'm moving forward.

Okay, I'm getting rather frustated myself b/c I can't seem to put into undertandable words what I am trying to get across to you. Let me put it this way. Stop trying to show her that you love her....period! The more you "try"......the more the stitch gets into a mess. I want you to stop thinking about how you can prove her wrong about your love, etc. Frankly, I do not think you could prove to her anything at the point b/c she does not want to be proven wrong. I know that may sound crazy but she is so hung up in her justification of being hurt and being "right" about the stitch that and she is not going to listen or see anything that is contrary. You are not only spinning your wheels in trying to prove love to her, but you are making matters worse. In order to get to that place where you can see some ways to show her love, you must apply all of the DB techniques you've been given in the book and here on the board.

If she has any sense at all, she will be able to see for herself that you love her. Right now, she is too busy having a big pity-party and making you feel as guilty as sin over every pain she ever had. You are giving way too much of your energy into thinking "how" you can "show" her your love. That is exactly what is making you look unattractive to her. All the things that you have been told about GAL, detaching, looking attractive, being unavailable, etc. is what you need to be working on. I wished I had not even made that statement about showing your love b/c it puts you into a tailspin. And that tells me that you are not hearing all this other advice; you are only hearing how you can prove your love. That is what you are hung up about. So, that makes me frustrated! It would be to your best interest to forget about showing love, at this time, and think about other things. If you will notice in that quote that I said "as you have time". I meant that after the R inproves (providing that it does) you will be able to show her your love......but this is way, way down the road from now.

This quote shows what I am referring to:

I think she was getting uncomfortable with the Dark/Dim that caused her to think I had forgotten about her and moved on (what she cried about the week before she moved out). I think on Sunday's call and after that, she saw that I was still emotionally there for her and ready to take her back (which I am), but probably made it seem like I was too eager/easy. I've got to be careful about that.

As long as you think like this.....you have not begun to drop the rope! You are suppose to make her feel uncomfortable!! As long as she feels good about what the stitch, then you are way off base. Can't you see that as long as she knows that you are emotionally there for her.....she will continue to dangle you at the end of "her" rope? I can't seem to get you to understand that you can continue to love her, but you can't continue to make her think that you are still there for her and will take her back at a moments notice. Remember, it is when they think they "can't" have the LBS, that the WAS begins to take notice. Apparently, I seem to be talking in circles to you and need to start all over, but I don't think I have the energy.

You see, as long as she knows that if she keeps the crying up long enough, she will break you down emotionally....that re-assures her that she can continue to play these same old games. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO! She needs to be convinced that you are not available to her b/c she messed up when she walked out on you. She must learn that she makes mistakes and that she hurts other people. As I told you before, she is not the typical WAW. She is in your daily life way too much for a typical WAW. She is wanting to manipulate you, where a typical WAW would not want to be anywhere around you and want you to move on without her and leave her alone. I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I don't know what else to say when you keep doing the same things over and over......or asking the same questions.

Sandi - I think I do understand, but it just still feels so crappy.

Of course it does. I hear the LBS say that over and over again and it makes me wonder if they thought it should not hurt so badly. Did they expect something different or did they think the feelings would change after a week or two? I am not being critical of your pain, but I am saying that this is a fact of life that you must accept and it will not go away until you start GAL. Go read all the other people who learned this lesson. They said the same things about how crappy it felt, but when they started appling the DB techniques and especially GAL and detaching.....then they begin to feel better.

I said you can if you want to but its your choice. He said "No becuase she won't answer".

So, why didn't you let it go? Why did you keep on and end up calling her? I know....but do YOU know. Then you wondered if you should have at least said good-night to her. UGH! Listen, I know how Stuck saw it and told you to do like you would a friend, and ordinarly I would agree, but in this case......you cannot allow any chance for getting into a R talk. Talking on the phone to her will open a door for a R talk. Beside, I believe you were thinking about yourself more than the boys. If you weren't, you would have dropped it when he said he didn't really want to phone her. You can argue about it, but it is clear to me and I've seen this too many times in other LBS's stitch. They use the kids as an excuse to call the spouse. I believe if he wanted to talk to her, he would not have to be reminded. If you remind him and he still doesn't want to.....why push it? Even a 7 year old knows how to protect himself from possibly being hurt again.

Do you think I should just have him call? She had said that the parent with the kids should call since that parent knows the best time to call

Until the initial part of the S is over and the two of you can't say hello and good-bye without getting into a R talk, then yes, the kids should just talk. BTW, about what she said? That is also another way of "controlling" and keeping tabs on the S. Or, didn't you realize that? Would be nice if you happen to be too busy and "forgot" to call before the boys went to bed. She has already as much as told you that she doesn't care if she talks to them or not. Doesn't sound right for a mother to feel that way.....but shows you how self centered she is now.

So by not saying anything, was that too Cold/Dark? Was that being the jerk, not the integrated man (ala the Spellfire Triangle)? Would have just saying have a goodnite been construed as "pursuing"?

You are either dark or not. You are so hung up on what she said you were like before she left that it is keeping you from being able to apply DB techniques. She told you herself....it is too late to do those things now. So, why are you so worried that you are proving her right whenever you do not call, etc? The time to have shown her that you were the opposite man from who she described was before the M broke up. You could stand on your head trying to prove otherwise now and it would still be "too late" in her opinion. That is why we have been trying to tell you to drop the rope. You cannot drop the rope and still play the part of the lovie-dovie husband. It will not work until you "et that"!

Any thoughts/feedback? My wife had complained about how in the past I never talked to her or ignored her, that's why on Mon-Weds I tried the friendly route. Maybe I was too friendly.

I'm really looking for some input here. When I have the kids call to say goodnite, should I at least say Hi or Goodbye? I know it would be the polite thing to do.

You treat her as a friend when you can. This is not the time (IMHO) b/c you can't seem to be able to stop at being "friends". You two are newly separated and it is too early to expect to be able to treat everything as "friends". Not calling and not saying hello/goodbye is one of those things. If she catches you on the phone with one of her looooong R talks, remember what I told you? Tell her you don't have time to listen to all of that stuff again and/or you have to go and hang up. Would you tell a "friend" that? No. But....right now, you can't always be like a friend with her. It is good to use the "frienship" measuring stick as a guide, but there are times such as this that you would be walking into a trap. When you get to the place that you can actually say hello/goodbye to her in a chipper voice that shows no sadness, etc., and can controll any R routes, then it will be safe to do that. Until you reach that point, I would say not to take those chances. You are still too vulnerable.

"Apparently (movie title) still makes me cry"

Now watch this.....she is setting a trap! This is her sign that she wants a R talk. She is snaring you into her trap to call her back.

Anyway, I wound up replying

Sucker!!

In hindsight I shouldn't have replied but it really touched a memory in me.

Yep, she knew it would trigger a menory. She knew exactly what she was doing.

Don

't know why she brought it up tonite again

.

Oh, pllllllease!

Guess its her controlling to pull my strings again

You said it!!

Or it was her way to reach out to me to reconnect

No way! Stop thinking like that! You are in a fantasy world if you allow yourself to think that way. You are setting yourself up for more disappointment.

I sooooo want to call her and tell her I love her

You do and I'll come through this computer after you! Have some backbone and pride! Stop being her puppet.

After the boys were done eating, she and I chatted in the kitchen. I asked her about child support (we have a hearing scheduled on June 23rd and she was suppose to ask her lawyer to draw something up so we wouldn't have to go down). She said that she was frustrated with her lawyer as he hasn't returned her call. I told her I talked to a lawyer friend (didn't say I retained him) that said what we could do as well as the number that was worked out.

She then said that she didn't trust me and had felt like I had taken advantage of her during the years we were married. She wants to talk to her lawyer as she definitely doesn't trust me now.

No use in going into all that I could say, but do you see where she throws in that jab about her not trusting you every chance she gets? Now, she is even frustrated at her lawyer for not returning her calls!! Tell me, does she try to control everyone in her life?

I told her that's it's disappointing to hear her say that as I know that I will always take care of the boys and treat them fairly

Now I do feel like coming through this computer! Why would you tell her something like "it's disappointing to hear her say that"? Let me tell you hear and now......she will have no respect for you as long as you continue to make responses like that when she cuts you down. So, stop it! I am getting sick of it just reading how often you say crap like that. It is time to man up!!

She went on and on with the same old crap that she has been over a hundred times and you stood there and took it. And don't hand me this stuff about wanting to be polite! It is not about being polite....it is about having some self respect and acting like a man. If there is ever a time for you to start treating her like YOU are the man.....it is now.

I told her that I still do believe if we both try as that is what I want. It's not because of just the kids, but it's because of how I feel. The door is unlocked right now, but if she chooses to lock it, then that's her decision. I've moving on knowing that I've done everything that I can do. She started to cry at that point. We were standing really close facing each other and I wound up putting my hands on her sides. She put her arms around my neck like she used to and we hugged very tightly.

She smelled really good and it's been 7 weeks since we had hugged.

I think I'm going to puke.

We didn't talk anymore of the relationship or that type of stuff after that.

Well I guess not. There wasn't anything left to say!

The rest of that post just made me sick, so I won't read any farther. All I can say is that you will have to start all over from this point.

[confusedinpa]

I'm wondering what your take is. How specifically did you take advantage or violate her trust? Sorry, maybe I should read back...is it just that you didn't appreciate her enough, worked too much, took her for granted?

My take is the traditional I worked too much and took her for granted. I focused on the things vs giving her myself. Someone said it early, as a WAW, it would have taken so little to make her happy but I didn't get it then. I get what she wants now, but she says that she's too hurt and doesn't trust me and doesn't want to be my wife anymore because it was so hurtful

I had beat myself up pretty bad about it. I'm trying to work through my own guilt. I'm not doing a very good job at it but am still trying.

Thanks for the time and support

[aliveandkicking]

I believe 100% that if it could have worked then, it can work now. She is making a decision. There is no reason for her to reject the possibility of R unless she has her own issues (which clearly she does).

I was an almost WAS, but if H would have put half the effort of you guys on here are doing, I would have been eager to see action and give it a chance.

I have my own issues. Some people perceive me as insecure because I don't shut the door on my M. But, we each have our own path.

You know, if you were more like my H, you could turn it around and tell her 101 ways she didn't make it worth it for you to put the energy and you are moving on.

She has major trust issues to work through and I concur with Sandi, there isn't too much you can do about that.

The hardest thing is to choose. Hand her cr*p over to her and take responsibility for YOUR part and go about your business OR try to be the guy she's saying you weren't and hope she believes it. I have been somewhere in the middle and it hasn't really accomplished much 5 months into separation.

Today, I am picking the things H has pointed out that I know are true and working on them (serves me anyway) and I am doing the 180s that work for me. Sometimes I'm thinking of what H would think but that is subsiding thankfully.

YOU...you've got to change your name from "confusedinpa" and move toward "figuringitoutinpa" or something like that.

Oh, I say it would have taken so little for H to "make me happy." But, come on now, that's easy to say in retrospect. And, most happy people will tell you that no one can "make you happy." She has some big fish to fry that have nothing to do with you IMO.

There is also a big issue that I've recognized in most of these sitches which is sort of like your paradigm with family...they see you through a certain lens and it is hard to divert from that. WAS can't really reinvent themselves with the S around. They want to be and feel like a new and improved person and they see you as fitting with the old them. I think that is part of why it is so important to work on YOU because a) that is necessary for your survival and b) you have an opportunity to reinvent yourself and inspire your ex.

I never seem to be at a loss for words here. I feel so much empathy for everyone. It is so easy to think our feelings are so unique but we are all in the same boat.

[confusedinpa]

Let me put it this way. Stop trying to show her that you love her....period! The more you "try"......the more the stitch gets into a mess. I want you to stop thinking about how you can prove her wrong about your love, etc. Frankly, I do not think you could prove to her anything at the point b/c she does not want to be proven wrong

It would be to your best interest to forget about showing love, at this time, and think about other things. If you will notice in that quote that I said "as you have time". I meant that after the R inproves (providing that it does) you will be able to show her your love......but this is way, way down the road from now.

OW! OW! OW! My head!

Just kidding Sandi, thanks for sticking with me to beat this one into me. I understand and will work on keeping focus. I see your point on how she's not looking to be proven wrong in her decision to file for divorce and moving out. She's looking for everything to reinforce that she made the right decision.

Hopefully we can get to the point where the relationship improves.

You see, as long as she knows that if she keeps the crying up long enough, she will break you down emotionally....that re-assures her that she can continue to play these same old games. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO! She needs to be convinced that you are not available to her b/c she messed up when she walked out on you. She must learn that she makes mistakes and that she hurts other people. As I told you before, she is not the typical WAW. She is in your daily life way too much for a typical WAW. She is wanting to manipulate you, where a typical WAW would not want to be anywhere around you and want you to move on without her and leave her alone.

What you said about the typical WAW is exactly what my WAW friend at works says - she wished her husband would find someone else and leave her alone.

With my wife being a non-typical WAW, it had seemed like at times that she wants some pursuit, but only on her terms. My therapist said that it seems like she is setting it up so she can continue to reject me. Guess I'm still blinded by love and I've been refusing to see/believe she's no longer the woman I married. But I guess that's the heart of the problem, as a WAW, typical or not, she is no longer the woman I married.

Of course it does. I hear the LBS say that over and over again and it makes me wonder if they thought it should not hurt so badly. Did they expect something different or did they think the feelings would change after a week or two? I am not being critical of your pain, but I am saying that this is a fact of life that you must accept and it will not go away until you start GAL. Go read all the other people who learned this lesson. They said the same things about how crappy it felt, but when they started appling the DB techniques and especially GAL and detaching.....then they begin to feel better.

I guess the "crappiness" is how I had 3 days with boys where it was less crappy, but everytime she takes the boys, the crappiness returns. I think today in particular was hard as the four of us spent so much time together this morning and then when I went to church, the service was about Divorce. It was so hard, that I didn't/couldn't go to my small group session nor to the gym (which was the routine I had been using to get through Sunday). Compounding that, the friends I normally talk to or see on Sunday were all out of town.

I felt a little better once I got out of the house and spent some "me" time besides staring at the empty house. Guess that's the "power" of getting a life.

Do you think I should just have him call? She had said that the parent with the kids should call since that parent knows the best time to call

I actually wound up calling tonite to say goodnite to the boys as she hadn't called and it was past their "normal" bedtime. After I was done talking to the boys, she got on the phone and I just said, in a cheerful, upbeat voice as possible, "Goodnite" and hung up. She wound up emailing me a little later with some tactical stuff. I just replied with a Thanks for the FYI and told her that our youngest needed milk for Monday.

I think that's the "right" level of response from me, for now.

You are either dark or not. You are so hung up on what she said you were like before she left that it is keeping you from being able to apply DB techniques. She told you herself....it is too late to do those things now. So, why are you so worried that you are proving her right whenever you do not call, etc? The time to have shown her that you were the opposite man from who she described was before the M broke up. You could stand on your head trying to prove otherwise now and it would still be "too late" in her opinion. That is why we have been trying to tell you to drop the rope. You cannot drop the rope and still play the part of the lovie-dovie husband. It will not work until you "get that"!

I think that's the core of the issue that I didn't get. I was so hung up on my 180 that I couldn't let go of that to drop the rope.

You treat her as a friend when you can. This is not the time (IMHO) b/c you can't seem to be able to stop at being "friends". You two are newly separated and it is too early to expect to be able to treat everything as "friends". Not calling and not saying hello/goodbye is one of those things. If she catches you on the phone with one of her looooong R talks, remember what I told you? Tell her you don't have time to listen to all of that stuff again and/or you have to go and hang up. Would you tell a "friend" that? No. But....right now, you can't always be like a friend with her. It is good to use the "frienship" measuring stick as a guide, but there are times such as this that you would be walking into a trap. When you get to the place that you can actually say hello/goodbye to her in a chipper voice that shows no sadness, etc., and can controll any R routes, then it will be safe to do that. Until you reach that point, I would say not to take those chances. You are still too vulnerable.

Thanks, I think I got it now and hopefully I can prove it through actions, rather than just the words. I appreciate the clarity

"Apparently (movie title) still makes me cry"

Now watch this.....she is setting a trap! This is her sign that she wants a R talk. She is snaring you into her trap to call her back.

Anyway, I wound up replying

Sucker!!

Guess its her controlling to pull my strings again

You said it!!

You are sooo right on that one. After I sent the reply, I felt like such and idiot for sending it.

No use in going into all that I could say, but do you see where she throws in that jab about her not trusting you every chance she gets? Now, she is even frustrated at her lawyer for not returning her calls!! Tell me, does she try to control everyone in her life?

Now I do feel like coming through this computer! Why would you tell her something like "it's disappointing to hear her say that"? Let me tell you hear and now......she will have no respect for you as long as you continue to make responses like that when she cuts you down.

I actually thought this trust thing was a relatviely new thing that she brought up. In the past, the entire pity party was all about the hurt. She had said that she didn't trust me with her heart (as part of the hurt pity party), but today was the first time where she started on about not trusting me that I would take care/responsibility for the kids. I got very annoyed about it and perhaps I didn't get it in my journaling/post, she was very aware that I'm annoyed about that. I didn't say I was disappointed by that, that was just how I put it in the post.

I hadn't thought this morning's conversation was that bad, but I guess that's what's good about this forum, and why I try to journal what's going on. By having people look from the outside with all the life experience really helps. I reread my post after I read your's and I see how I really came accross weak and needy. I thought there were times where I held firm, but I guess those were too far and few.

I am trying to dance a fine line as we have a child support hearing coming up in 3 weeks so I'm trying not to get her fighting mad (she can, according to my lawyer, get up to $2500/month if she reall presses it - right now we're around the $1500 number), but I do see how that "playing nice" may not be helping my longer term cause.

Thanks again for hanging in with me. Hopefully I won't get so many "mad/mean" faces in the future.

[MrBond]

"I actually thought this trust thing was a relatviely new thing that she brought up. In the past, the entire pity party was all about the hurt."

Nah she's brought up the trust issue before. It's weird when the WAS brings up stuff like that.

All of the things that sandi's been bringing up are the same things I brought up since day 1. Put your foot down and be firm.

It's just that sandi wields a bigger stick!

[MrBond]

Hey Kittyfish,

Yes I am in Hawaii. The weather now is BEE-U-TI-FUL! Too bad the sitch isn't. : )

[confusedinpa]

Sandi's stick is more like a club!

Like many nites, I've really been giving what's been posted.

I'm still trying to digest it, not from an understanding of what everyone is saying, but having the faith/belief that it is the right thing to do.

This is a tough strategic decision that I will only get once chance at it.

I do appreciate all the thoughts/support that people offer. I know I can be frustrating as I may seem to be go in circles

I really have a lot to think about

Thanks